It's nice, but I would have a few problems if it were my kitchen:

1) There's not a lot of counter space for prep. How many inches on that side of the sink? It looks like you would have to step back or to the side to access the trash while prepping.

2) your baking/ bar area is far from the fridge and water and oven.

To remedy those issues, I suggest you:

1) put a cleanup sink where you have the baking area

2) make the island sink smaller but still a decent size for a prep sink

3) put the bar by the fridge for access to cream, ice, etc and outdoor parties

4) move ovens on the cleanup side

5) do your baking on the island, which will have more space for rolling pie crust, etc

OR...

Add a small sink and small fridge to the bar side.

ETA, emilyam, excellent ideas! ;)

Shelby, you have enough counter space to have a separate clean-up area, with a prep sink on the island. If you have help when you entertain, a second sink is very convenient. These changes give you a larger clean-up sink, two prep spaces with water source, and a longer baking counter beside the ovens, although coffee service and the bar might need to be combined. You'll spend more time prepping than doing dishes, 70% compared to 10%, so the slight asymmetry of the prep sink will be worth the trade-off.

The island and table look too close for comfortable seating at both, although the 3D plan looks better. How far apart are they?

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

Thanks, mama.

Much better Mama.

As for symmetry, the only time you'd notice it is in a photograph. Go for function over symmetry.

I agree with cpartist. Go for function. I think symmetry is overrated. Also, a problem with symmetry is that--at least for my eyes--it highlights all of the things that are not symmetric. The dining table and it's chandelier not being centered on the windows or even centered on the doors would drive me bananas more than anything going on in the kitchen.

Good points, good points! Many concerns are what I had but couldn't resolve. I'm really liking how the sink off center puts it closer to where it's needed. I would not have considered that. I was trying to avoid two sinks but I may need to consider that. I am liking your layout Mama.

You've all be so helpful for some perspective so far. It's very true that symmetry does make things that aren't perfectly aligned (inevitable) stand out.

I've been fighting with those windows and table trying to make something I can be happy with with. While we're on that subject, thoughts on putting the table between the doors? Would that be weird to walk in on the table? I feel there's the space there widthwise but lengthwise I don't have the space to get it centered beyond the doors (on the windows).

I guess I was trying to keep the lesser used side of the kitchen on the higher traffic side i.e. oven/MW/fridge out of the mudroom/laundry entrance side. What do think? And I was picturing my jars of baking ingredients on the shelves but it bugs me that separates out the food storage areas.

We tend to cook together for what that's worth too.

As it sits there's a hair under 5' between island and table. Is that enough?

And here's playing with the table between the doors. I can easily get more room in the LR depending on what I do with the staircase so ignore that side.

Oh oh! Mama, I get what you did on the fridge wall! I didn't even think of that.

I'm going to be the dissenter here - there isn't enough room for the Cleanup Zone on that wall. Yes, you can cram a sink and DW there, but there's no elbow space/landing zone/work space b/w the sink and refrigerator.

Either move the refrigerator to the opposite wall or move the Cleanup Zone to the opposite wall.

I like the refrigerator on the existing wall so it's easily accessed from the Kitchen, Great Room, and outside living space. So, I recommend moving the Cleanup Zone to the other wall. That other wall would also have plenty of room for dish storage.

Depending on your climate, you might consider a pass-through to the outside on the refrigerator wall. It would be easy to pass food, drinks, etc., b/w the Kitchen and outside as well as give you a "view" and opportunity to visit with those outside.

I'd make the window as big as possible and have no upper cabs on that wall (except over the refrigerator). Not all of the window space has to be the pass-through, but it would be great to have a nice big window! I'd make all the windows counter-height, not just the "pass-through". If you cannot do the pass-through, I'd still do everything else (wide window, counter-height, etc.)

Have you thought about hiring an architect to design your home? Altering stock plans to this degree creates a crazy domino effect. You might post your overall plan to the Building a Home forum.

Also, to kind of piggy back on what Buehl said, The sight line from the front door to the clean up sink on that back wall would be a no-no for me. You might ditch the hutch situation on the front wall and put your clean up sink and fridge there on the washer/dryer wall.

Why do you want to relegate your room to behind the kitchen? Back in the old days, they put the hired help behind the kitchen. Have you considered instead putting the kids and yourself all on the same side so the house is like a sideways T?

Buehl, I do agree about there not being space for clean up on the left side. My stove is against a wall now and I hate it! I don't want a tight sink. I very much like the counter depth/huge/pass through window concept. I was actually thinking I'd make it a horizontal slider in case we wanted to use it that way (and for ease of opening it while reaching over the counter). We are in Texas though so passing through won't be often I presume. But I plan to put our current smoker and beer tap in that outdoor kitchen so it will be used often! I think I'd love counter too height, good idea.

Sounds like I need to play with the sink being on the right wall. I wasn't sure I'd like it not facing out or a window though. Ideas on that?

We want a split floorplan because my firefighter husband has to sleep during the day some. But I also like the idea of being able to manage home duties without waking kids (laundry, cooking).

We are thinking we'll need an architect (and we have a good recommendation for one), although we initially planned to avoid the budget for that. I think layout is the most important aspect and I want it right. I'm reading a bunch since discovering this forum! I'm seeing this bubble diagram concept and it looks quite helpful to give to an architect while allowing them to still "do his thing" but I feel fairly specific about my needs at the same time. So the other part of me feels like showing him a full floor plan (while being very open to his experienced input) might save some time. Thoughts? The reason I started with a stock plan is because exterior elevations and roof line planning is beyond my imagination but very important to me, this plan has the perfect shell if that makes sense?

This forum is amazing! Thanks for the help so far! I'll go check out the new build section someone mentioned as well.

Oops, I put the large clean-up sink on that wall because there is already plumbing and a window in that location. The window could be moved down and the sink could be smaller, to leave some elbow room. (Edited)

That would also change the cabinets on the other side of the window.

I left the outside sink in front of the window, but it could be moved over toward the center of the cabinets, if you don't need the longer cabinet run outside.

Here's what I was thinking.

The Cleanup Zone (w/cleanup sink) wall is 3" deeper than standard to allow for deeper uppers and, if you like, a "Dish Hutch". The extra depth also gives you more room behind the sink for a faucet, cleaning, and "face space".

If you have a prep sink and your primary Prep Zone is in the island, then you will find that you don't spend all that much time in front of the cleanup sink. The vast majority of time will be spent at the island. Kitchen work studies have shown:

• 70% or more time/work spent in the Kitchen is spent preparing a meal or snack [Prep Zone]

• 20% or less is spent cleaning up - and that includes not just sink work (hand washing a few items), but also non-sink work such as loading the DW (if you don't pre-rinse your dishes), unloading the DW, clearing the counters & table, wiping down the counters & table, and sweeping up at the end of the day. [Cleanup Zone]

• 10% is spent cooking - stirring, adding ingredients, watching food cook [Cooking Zone]

Based on the above, it makes the most sense to have the Prep Zone in the best spot - whether for the view or for visiting, whichever you prefer - and the Cleanup Zone in the least favored spot. The Cooking Zone's location is dictated by the location of the Prep Zone and where it can be best protected from traffic.

Plus, with nothing on the far left, it frees up that space for a Tea/Coffee/Snack Center -and- plenty of space for staging food for either the Dining Room or the outside!

Zone Map:

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Since this is a new build, I also recommend posting on the Building A Home Forum (http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/build). You may very well end up with something very different and the above will no longer apply, but at least it gives you something to think about.

Good luck!

I recognize this kitchen! I gave my thoughts on the post in the Decorating Love FB group. Glad to see you here. :)

Buehl, I appreciate your time spent! You've made me realize my attachment to the idea of a build in oven and separate range may be putting unnecessary constraints on my plan when I might have other options. I like the window off center since I have the freedom with that one and the longer run of counter that offers. I have never considered doing deeper cabinets for more "face space!" We'd have to go completely custom then so I need to ponder that. Dish storage works much better your way too. I just stumbled over to the new build forum and have been reading and reading! Lots of helpful info!

@Gennifer, that was me!! Just discovering the awesomeness of these forums! I got some really great pointers Decorating Love that got me here too!

Shelby, since you're open to changes in the general layout, here's a reconfiguration of the entry/mudroom/laundry, which puts the pantry closer to incoming groceries. You mentioned not being sure about putting the ovens on the entry side, so I moved the W/D out of the traffic path, too.

The master bath and master closet are each smaller, but are more private. It's quick and messy, and without measurements, I just eyeballed the space, so it will need to be checked, to see if everything will fit. If you don't need a separate powder room in that location, the corner space could be used for storage.

In the kitchen, the MW could be turned to face the fridge, which would make that end of the island a snack prep space, but that would also put it in the traffic path.

I don't know if it would crowd the entry door too much, but the bench could be located under the window, which would leave space for a closet (or hooks for coats) just inside the door:

I think she mentioned in the other group that her husband doesn't work traditional hours, and she wants to be able to access the master closet during the day without going through the bedroom.

I think. It's a busy, fast-moving group, so I'm a little fuzzy...

Shelby, you don't need to go custom to get deeper counters. Many people (probably most) simply pull the base cabinets out from the wall around 3" and then use standard 24"D cabinets.

15"D uppers are available in almost all cabinet lines today. IKEA, for example, only offers 15"D uppers and they're definitely not high-end or custom cabinets!

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Shelby did mention upthread that her DH sleeps during the day sometimes, so I understand why she wants to isolate the MBR from the closet, etc.

I'll print these off to mull over and take my overall plan to the new home forum before I come back!

Oh yes and Mama, I do love the way you arranged the pantry! But I do need "back access" to the master closet/bath.

A few thoughts - I'd convert the sink across from the island in Buehl's layout number 2, to a 36" cabinet. We have triple trash in ours - trash, plastic recycling and paper recycling (and vent into an adjacent cabinet). Are you planning a MW drawer? They're fabulous. We have 30" counter tops and 18" deep uppers, along with the standard 24" base cabinets. The deeper uppers allow for terrific vertical storage of serving bowls, while the deeper counter tops allow you store things on them and still have plenty of space to work.

Good luck, it looks like you are off to a great start!

Only have a symmetrical kitchen if all the dishes you serve are symmetrical.

Oldbat2be deeper uppers sounds awesome! But I am sacred of having a MW in toddler reach. ;) Though I've yet to get to use a microwave drawer, they do intrigue me.

I combined some of your ideas last night and loved what I came up with! But of course I lost all my work so I'll have to redo it today.

I'm sure there are still issues here that I haven't noticed but I think I've made improvement! Mama's example left out my back closet/bathroom entrance but got me thinking about how much I liked the pantry where she put it!

What do we think? I need to possibly squeeze in a full height utility cabinet beside the fridge to give the door room like Buehl has. My counter may get too small over there though... But it would be nice snack storage. ⤵️

On the left side should I consider shallow, mostly full height cabinets (with a shallow pass through counter under the window)? Then I could off center the kitchen as needed for big walkways (mainly for the stove and fridge area). Or keep this great run of counter for big prep projects and buffet style serving for parties? ⤵️

I love how I can have the coffee area close to the fridge this way, keep all food storage close, and bring groceries to the pantry right from the mudroom!

Oh also, the layout works much better if I center the dining room on the doors... haven't decided how "odd" that is though. Headed over to the new build forum with that question in mind. But open to input!

Looks good. I don't think you have enough room for a cabinet between fridge and wall unless it is a very narrow pull out, buy you'll need a filler so the fridge doors and drawers can open.

It looks like your upper cabinets by the cooktop extend to the counter. That leaves you with very little counter space for cooking, and you'll have splatter from the cooktop all over those cabinets.

You have little prep and clean up space and they are both on the island, front and center. Can you explain why the Buehl or MG plans dont work for you?

On second thought... I still think you need a second sink. Your latest plan doesn't function differently than your original.

hmmm maybe I didn't make as much progress as I thought. Since I changed the pantry side like MG, I could incorporate more of Buehl's mirrored imaged. I don't think I'll be able to live with an off centered sink. But if I pulled it out onto the long counter and put a prep sink opposite that might work! The island could be entirely prep space then. I'm also trying to avoid the MW and fridge being super far apart since I feel like I go between those often. I'm not set on a wall oven though I can have a stove instead.

Jmarino, you have a point about all the mess being front and center! Not sure I'd love that.

I shall return!

The island appears to be 8.5' long. If a 30' sink is centered, you have the bare minimum recommended, 36" on each side. Would you consider off-setting a single bowl sink, but centering the faucet on the island? From across the room the sink would appear centered, but you have more prep space on one side--ap 45". DW is to the right of the sink:

Oh and I realized switching to a stove as Beuhl had it gets it out of the main traffic area! Much better idea.

Sink & DW in the island...completely missed my point about prep workspace, the DW in the way of the Cooking Zone, etc. There really isn't enough counter space for your Prep Zone, especially if the sink is centered. It also puts your dirty dishes on display in a very, very open space.

Cleanup Sink & DW on the left...you lose the nice size and usefulness of the left window if you stick the cleanup sink on that side. Plus, since you don't have a prep sink in the island, your primary Prep Zone is going to be on the far left on the non-DW side of the sink with limited workspace. The refrigerator is now too far away from the primary Prep Zone and you will have to cut across the entire width of the Kitchen & through the Cooking Zone.

No prep sink in the island...the island is now pretty much useless as prep b/c it doesn't have any water - one of the two key elements of a Prep Zone - Water source + Sufficient open counter/work space next to the water source.

Prep sink in the island...good, except don't center it b/c you are, again, shorting yourself on workspace. If you deliberately offset it by quite a bit, then it will not look out of place and will look just fine.

Small sink on the far right...you won't have any work or counter space for anything if you put a sink there, so it won't function very well as a snack/beverage center or as a baking center. Do you really need one there since it's not adding any functionality?

Trash belongs in the primary Prep Zone...and that depends on what you end up with.

I like symmetry as well, but it can be taken too far!

+++ Warning: "Tough Love" ahead +++

So, the question I have to ask you is:

Are looks more important to you than functionality?

It appears so based on many of your comments.

Neither answer (yes or no) is wrong - we just need to know what's right for you and your family so we can focus our efforts on what is more important to you.

If looks are more important, then at this point I'd say go ahead with whatever you think looks better. Most of us here, though, are function first because...

It's very easy to make a functional Kitchen look nice; it's almost impossible to make a nice looking by dysfunctional Kitchen functional without tearing it out and starting over.

.

Note: This question is not meant as a slam or criticism - it's something we need to know. We keep trying to "change" your layout to be more functional and you are resisting - so we need to know if we should continue our efforts from a functional point of view.

First it's great you're getting all these kitchen plans but you're really putting the cart before the horse since you're not even sure whether or not you'll use an architect or person of design talent. It's a fun exercise but before you have the house plan it means nothing.

You mentioned about your husband needing to sleep during the day which would make my suggestion of a T turned on it's side the perfect layout for you. Your master bathroom and closet could be the division between your room and the kid's rooms (at the top center of the T) and your room could be open on 3 sides.

I'm reading a bunch since discovering this forum! I'm seeing this bubble diagram concept and it looks quite helpful to give to an architect while allowing them to still "do his thing" but I feel fairly specific about my needs at the same time. So the other part of me feels like showing him a full floor plan (while being very open to his experienced input) might save some time. Thoughts?

If your architect is that experienced you don't need to give him a floor plan. Your bubble diagram will give him all the info you need. That and put together idea books of what you like.

As JDS likes to say, "why would you bring a baloney sandwich to a five star restaurant?"

Our architect will be doing us a favor by making plans at a reduced cost because he has a relationship with my husband's fire department. So I don't expect him to spend hours and hours with me while I figure out what we need. Trying to do that before hand.

I do get that a dysfunctional kitchen that's pretty isn't worth much. But I know an off centered sink will forever bug me, otherwise I'm very open to functional choices that may not be the ideal design choice. I don't feel like bumping the sink maybe 3 feet is worth that sacrifice for me. My current sink isn't centered in the kitchen window and it still drives me nuts (5 years in!). Although the offset sink with centered faucet is a good thought. I still think I'd rather center it over the few inches that gains me. My other problem precluding me from being able to adapt one of these plans so far 100 percent are microwave related. I don't want a drawer because I have little children who looooove buttons (and we plan to have more) and I feel like it should be close to the fridge because of how often I go between the two.

I don't love the clean up sink in the island because of potentially displaying dirty dishes but I'm willing to do it if it functions better. The sink in front of the window is another great idea but I struggle with how much dish storage that limits me to near by. I can see value to the sink being on the non window wall but I would want deeper cabinets for face space (genius idea I wouldn't have thought of!), but I'm concerned about the cost of that forcing me to go totally custom.

Two sinks is a new concept for me, not sure I'd love it... I have a small sinkless island now that I love so I'm not too worried about that. But my kitchen is smaller currently so everything is close and maybe that makes it function well still.

This looks like what I am going for and the setup looks doable for my space if I went with the island sink. I guess I didn't picture this set up as being disfunctional because I see it a lot and I'd love to cook in this kitchen!

As I said earlier, you do NOT have to go custom...pull out the bases 3" from the wall and use standard bases. 15" deep uppers are not custom in most lines. If your cabinet line doesn't have them, they probably have 13" deep.

Regarding the MW drawer, simply engage the child lock. You're going to have that issue with other, more dangerous appliances as well, but they usually also have locks (e.g., ovens).

It does appear you are a looks first person...that's OK, that's you and this is your kitchen, so do what you prefer. We've given you a lot of advice, it's up to you to decide what to do. You will have to live and work in this kitchen for years to come. At least you'll be making an informed decision...knowing the pros and cons.

Good luck!

Oh I missed that idea! Pulling out normal base cabinets 3 inches could work! I was considering IKEA cabinets with custom doors and side panels so that would be easy to conceal the gap that way. And IKEA does have the deeper uppers which seems really nice.

I've honestly never seen a MW drawer in person, I didn't know they have a child lock so maybe that could open my options a bit (I like that it would be out of sight that way).

Lots of food for thought here as I review and adjust my plan!

Man this would be perfect with the hidden buttons! But it seems white MW drawer are rare... http://m.homedepot.com/p/Sharp-1-2-cu-ft-24-in-Microwave-Drawer-with-Concealed-Controls-Built-In-Stainless-Steel-with-Sensor-Cooking-SMD2470ASY/205591630

This looks like what I am going for and the setup looks doable for my space if I went with the island sink.

You don't have a space yet. How about waiting to see what the architect, even if he is a friend comes up with?