Planning for basement redo - electrical questions

7 years ago

Hi all,

I'm starting to plan for a (1300 sq ft) basement "redo". The house is 60 years old and the basement finish dates to that time. The outer walls are 2x4, 24" on center directly against the concrete, the ceiling is acoustic tiles glued to a wood frame. I want to remove the ceiling and perimeter walls and clean and dry-lok the concrete, leaving the structure above and painted concrete exposed. Some of the partition walls (bathroom and a storage room/wine cellar) will be kept.

My questions (first of many I'm sure):

For the electrical outlets that are currently attached to the studs of the perimeter walls - When I remove the paneling and studs is it appropriate to enclose the wiring in conduit and mount the outlet box to the concrete wall, after dry-lok application to the wall?

For the electrical outlets that are inside partition walls being removed - would I terminate that wiring within a new box I attach to the ceiling? Could that new box be an outlet rather than a termination? Outlets in the ceiling would be mighty handy - it's a big basement.

(Just for completeness, the minor water issues have been addressed with drains and re-grading outside, asbestos and radon tests are clear.)

Thanks for your help, excited to be a new member!

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Comments (6)

Matthew Holloway
Original Author
7 years ago
The inspiration:

Floors are still an open question, the vinyl tile needs to come up, if I can get it smooth I'll stain, if not I'll do epoxy.
worthy
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
In the inspiration project, the foundation walls are finished. It's hard to imagine any basement outside of Hawaii--75ºF. year-round-- that wouldn't work better with insulated foundation walls, both to save energy and increase comfort.

is it appropriate to enclose the wiring in conduit and mount the outlet box to the concrete wall ...?

Not only appropriate, but required. Some places, such as Ontario where I am, permit BX armoured cable. You will also have to use appropriate boxes.

Unless you're experienced with spray painting, it could be worth it to have the ceiling sprayed by pros.
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If you are looking to finish it for the highest future resale value, a good resource to consult is a realtor in your area (perhaps the one you used to buy it from or sell your previous house) They will know what is desireable there. However, unless you plan on selling again soon, the desires of the market may change by the time you sell. Also, you are unlikely to recover 100% of your investment in finishing the basement so you want to make sure to finish it in a way that you are able to enjoy it for years too. If a work out room is popular but you enjoy watching movies instead, put in the theater. I will say, multi-purpose spaces are handy. If you're going to build in an office, make it meet code for a bedroom (add a closet for example) so you have flexibility down the road. A room can be an office, guest room, exercise room, craft room, or home theater (though not the ultimate theater room if its a big square with large windows) so when you are trying to sell it you can style it as whatever is popular at that point. I personally think it is very handy to always have a bath on each level of the house, but you would not likely need a bathtub. Perhaps a larger shower stall would look nice but not have the expense or size of a tub. I wouldn't go for the newest trends just to make it have a high resale down the road, you may end up just looking old and dated when you finally sell... for example, if you use a glass tile mosaic backsplash on the back of your wetbar just to be trendy, but don't sell for 15 years, it may scream 2012 when you go to sell. However, if you find a glass tile mosaic backsplash that you LOVE and use it for 15 years, it was money well spent. Summary, decide when you want to sell again (if its 1-2 years it would make more sense to finish towards market desires vs your desires) talk to a realtor, and design a basic format that is flexible for your uses. Have fun on this project!
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If you are going to paint with dry-lock the dust issue will be lessened. There is a picture of a poster who did the black paint on the ceiling thing. I haven't seen the finished room but it does disguise the unfinished look. This technique is very popular in restaurants. Once you get living down there the dust issue will be dealt with, with regular cleanings. I like the light paint idea for light better. I am not a fan of dark caves myself. I too would go with scraping and re-painting the floor. I did my laundry room in white and it not only holds up it is easier to sweep. I did mine in Kilz/water lock cement block paint. I would not invest in much if you aren't up for the full job. Three houses tells me no one wants to hang out in what feels like a basement. How old are your kids? Maybe you would be better off to create an indoor play ground down there? Hang a few swings from the rafters, get some toys on wheels let the kids do more gross motor play down there. I also kept all play-dough play downstairs. Without finished walls, warmth, heat source and lots of light, the more natural the better, it just will never be a second family room, in my experience.
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A little history and explanation may help. Older houses typically had one circuit for kitchen countertop appliances and it wasn't uncommon for that circuit to feed other things as well, such as nearby lighting. When folks started added toaster ovens, cuisinarts, electric coffee makers (which draw a lot of power!), large microwaves, blenders, bread makers, eight-slice toasters, bun warmers and a myriad of other small appliances, fuses started blowing and breakers started tripping right and left so the code (NEC) was changed to require two 20-amp circuits for kitchen countertops. Heck, some kitchens these days have darn near the power requirements of small factories. :-) To keep these circuits available for all this equipment, the code also restricted using them for other purposes (limited purpose sharing with recepacles in pantry and dining room being the exception). That's the general rule and I think what LoneSparky's saying is that his local inspector will allow for a little bit of latitude (like a bit of under-cab lighting) but, sigh, that's really not code--it's more a matter of some common-sense give-and-take that you shouldn't presume. (Slap me upside, 'Sparky, if I'm out of school here.) The bottom line is that you're better off and safer (code-wise) to draw the power for under-cab lighting from some other circuit, preferably the lighting circuit. Whether $450 per bank is outrageous or not is hard to say. Does this include cost of the fixtures and, if so, how expensive are they? Also, what other electrical work will be done. Not long ago, I had the water pump replaced in my car and I told the mechanic to replace the fan belt while he was at it. I got the bill and saw that I'd been charged the so-called "Chilton Book" labor amount for changing a water pump plus the book amount for replacing a fan belt. (Note that a mechanic changing a water pump has to take the fan belt off and put it back on even if it's not being replaced.) This is a classic case of getting ripped off by fixed per-task fixed pricing and they backed off the fan belt labor after I protested. But it's a good case on point to consider. If that's the way the home center is pricing everything--so much for the labor of wiring a bank of under-cab, whether or not the sparky is doing other wiring as well--it is entirely possible that you're getting hosed if you're getting several electrical tasks done. If so, you may do better by laying out the whole set of requirements and getting a combined estimate for the electrical/installation work.
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mike_kaiser_gw
7 years ago
Your electrical questions might be better asked in the electrical section but it kind of sounds like you're going to be "unfinishing" your basement. Frankly I don't know how the NEC looks at that. Certainly in the "finished" portion the code is the same as in other parts of your home. For example, you need receptacles generally placed so that no point along the wall is more than 6' from a receptacle. They may also need to be arc-fault protected. Unfinished areas likely will require GFCI protection as well. Generally speaking you have to terminate wires in a junction box and the box must remain accessible. You can certainly have receptacles in the ceiling, while meeting other code requirements.

If you haven't, it would be a really good idea to pull permits and have the work inspected. Municipalities are paying much more attention to this kind of stuff and not having the work permitted can cause all kinds of problems down the road.
geoffrey_b
7 years ago
I would finish and insulate the walls - floor to ceiling. Different locales have different insulation requirements. As for outlets - you can use NM cable if it is stapled to the stud - no need for conduit. I use the larger 4" boxes and a mud ring - gives you a lot of space for the wires. You can 'daisy chain' the outlets. A lot of the talk about the need for conduit - that's for a exposed wall. If the wire is inside a finished wall there's not a worry for harm to the cable. Your inspector can give you advice.

If the top and bottom plates are good, I'd keep them. IMO DryLock doesn't do a lot of good.
worthy
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
They may also need to be arc-fault protected.

Excellent reminder!

Arc-fault protection has been a requirement in the US and Canada for years now. First, at least in Canada, protection was required only in bedrooms; since 2015, in Ontario, arc-fault protection has been required in virtually the whole house.
PRO
Gardner Lloyd
6 years ago
Worthy - sorry to hijack this thread, but I noticed you indicated that in the "inspiration" project the foundation walls are finished w/o insulation. I am about to start working on a basement in Orlando, FL. The exterior has a substantial waterproofing/drainage system. There has been no sign of water intrusion which are 8" CMU poured solid. Given this and that the ground temp in this area typically does not change much, is it necessary to even insulate the walls. Standard in Florida above ground is paper foil but this is only to reflect heat. I do not see how this adds any benefit in the basement. Thoughts on whether to insulate or not? If no insulation, should I use green board on walls instead of regular drywall? Thanks. Any insight is appreciated.

Planning for basement redo - electrical questions

Comments (6)

Matthew Holloway
Original Author

worthy

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Planning for basement redo - electrical questions

Comments (6)

Matthew HollowayOriginal Author

worthy

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mike_kaiser_gw

geoffrey_b

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Gardner Lloyd

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Matthew Holloway
Original Author