Hope it makes it but don't give up on some of the other ones still coming up. Older seed can take a long time and can be staggered in sprouting. I have had some come up even a month after starting.

1inch is too close and can burn the plant depends on the bulb intensity. Make sure to not over water and your mix is not too wet, this is the main killer of seedlings. Very wet mix will promote a condition called damping off and rot the stem. Make sure the mix is warm enough which is important for germination and seedlings growth, although it probably is with your lights that close.

I would second the aspirin, but if you use it would recommend a smaller des than normal.

Oh yes. Don't use two {LOL}. Simpy crush one and use a tiny little pinch of powder.

Tomato seed remains viable for many years. I have always made certain that I was planting these little treasures from the past in very sterile soil. Suggest you do the same. Easily done. Stand a large flat pan with sides in the kitchen sink. Place pots filled with starter soil in pan. Bring a container of water to a full boil and pour it carefully into each pot. Cover all with an old towel and let rest until cool. Remove dripping starter pots from the pan, set them to drain for a day then plant seeds. Actually I use this method every year when germinating tomato and pepper seeds. Extra insurance to prevent possible problems. This is an old technique used during the days of Victory gardening.

Thank all of you for replying.

I'll keep the aspirin in mind in case the situation worsens, but things have been stable for the past two days. It's also not due for a watering yet, so I'd have to wait anyway.

Whether the cause is the light or not, it sounds like increasing the distance was prudent.

Thank you for the advice about not giving up on the rest of them. I'll keep them around for a few more weeks. Then, if I need to plant more (my guess is yes), I'll start off the remaining seeds in sterile soil.

Fingers crossed!

If that is an indeterminate, you could grow one indoors and clone it. All you need to clone is water. Growing indoors you will have a protection plan and be able to focus on propagating this variety.

Yep, if this little guy makes it that far, cloning is definitely in the cards

Well I hope that it makes it. To me it looks a normal newly sprouted seedling. I would take it easy with watering. More seedlings die as a result of over watering than thirst.

Yeah, by cloning at early stage, you will improve the odds. Even if you succeed in having just one plant to maturity/fruiting you can save lot of seeds off of it.

sey

Update: things look worse than they did since the first picture I posted. There are several new things:

1. The larger leaf has been standing straight up for several days
2. The smaller leaf looks pale
3. Lots of purplish spots

The water drops you see are a dilute aspirin solution which was recommended earlier in the thread.

As for identifying what's going on here, I've seen possibilities that are all over the place -- everything from too much water, to too little water, to a nutrient problem, to a virus or bacterial infection. Researching this online seems to be a poor use of time, so hopefully someone here can point me in the right direction.

I got a new sprout today -- exactly one month after starting my seeds (wow!). If this seedling is infected with something, I want to get it out of there to protect the new sprout.

Thanks for your help again.

For the future, make sure you use fresh out of the box new mix, peat pellet, etc, for seed germination which will reduce chances of bacterial infection.

Unfortunately I don't think that one is going to make it. If it hasn't started to put out true leaves by now I don't think it ever will.

Give it a try. I too thought that my sick seedling was going to be "blind" (i.e. not put out any second leaves). It took a long time, but I believe that the aspirin treatment worked and I eventually had a normal plant. If you're really in the mood to pitch it in case you are worried about disease, perhaps you could gently remove it and keep it in another container.

Great photography BTW. Sorry that I couldn't figure out what is going on.

Linda

I think my ailing little friend must have heard Labradors cheering it on. It hasn't given up yet.

I was wondering what those blob things from the previous pictures were, sitting between the cotyledons. That's where leaves should have been emerging, and as LoneJack said, it's time for them to start coming in.

I present to you: leaves! Apparently those messed-up cotyledons are still carrying out enough photosynthesis to be useful.

The leaf growth is 2 days old. Here's where it gets either interesting or depressing. In that amount of time, the very top edge of the new leaf has developed a few spots and is ever-so-slightly less green than the rest of it. Your ability to see it will depend on whether the forum preserves the original resolution of the image in the blown-up view. The color difference is so subtle that I can't determine whether it's the leaf or lighting.

It's a bit early for me to say with confidence what's going on - if anything - but if these are indications of the same symptoms, it seems that the new leaf is on course to end up like the cotyledons. If that's the case, then I think there are two possibilities, although I could be wildly wrong since I know nothing about plants:

1. There's an infection. This seems plausible because of the spots.
2. It's still too close to the light. This could be plausible because the affected part of the leaf is closest to the light. The leaf is currently oriented so that the affected part is facing the light head-on and is closer to it, while the rest of the leaf (currently unaffected) is getting less direct exposure.

We know that in the beginning, I had the seedling too close (1 inch) and later moved it to 3.5 inches away. I've just put it as far away as it can get, at 5.5 inches. To increase the distance further, I'd have to prop up the light stand.

Does this new growth make it possible to rule out a nutrient issue? If it were a nutrient issue, wouldn't the new leaf have emerged looking pale like the cotyledons?

I dunno, but at least it's still hangin' in there - yeah :)

Linda

IMHO, it's too young to have a nutrient issue. it barely has any roots with which to take up nutes … ditto on the hanging in there sentiment ...

Thanks for the info. I have an update!

It's been growing quite well. I had to transplant it to a yogurt cup about a week and a half ago because roots were starting to break through the peat pellet. I've put holes in the bottom, and it has good drainage.

Gorbelly: Correct, the dome is gathering dust somewhere. :D

It's still in a soilless medium (Jiffy seed starting mix -- 50-60% sphagnum peat moss, vermiculite, coir pith and lime). Gorbelly, what you said about moisture control problems with peat pellets is experienced tenfold with this mix. However, I'm staying on top of it.

I'm starting to feel that maybe it should be in soil now, but I allowed someone (not on this forum) to convince me to go with this seed starting mix for a bit longer.

The underside of all of the larger leaves are purple, which I've read is indicative of a phosphorus deficiency. I've started using a 4-12-4 liquid fertilizer, and have made two applications so far, spaced several days apart. The first was at half strength, and the second was at regular strength.

Although it obviously looks a lot better, there have been some "incidents" to note.

1. The leaf on the left, closest to the ground and directly above the dead left cotyledon, partially died. The edges, which you can see have browned and withered, became extremely floppy and saturated-looking. It didn't spread past that area. Slightly farther back from the tip, in the center of the leaf, you can see a white spot. That's a defect in the vein which developed spontaneously at the same time the problem with the edges first appeared. My line of thinking is that it's a result of the vein defect, and that everything beyond that point will probably die. You can see that there's some lightening of the green area that sits between the edges and the defect. OK, right or not, it makes sense to me, so I haven't been losing sleep about it.
2. It was drooping a couple of days ago, but I can't isolate a cause because three things were going on at once. As I mentioned, the moisture retention of the new mix has taken some getting used to, and it was kinda dry, although not bone dry. However, I also forgot to turn on my grow light when I left for work that morning, and as a result it spent a day in the dark. It also followed the second application of fertilizer, which on that go-round was at regular strength. After watering it with plain tap water and giving it light for several hours, it was fine, so it was probably one or both of those things. But, for caution's sake, maybe it would be wise to also go back to using the fertilizer at half strength.
3. I'm explicitly asking for help with this one. One of the leaves has some strange spotting. I've included a close-up picture. I've been reading and hearing that "spots with halos equals disease", so I've been eyeing my scissors for most of the evening. However, I thought I'd post here to ask for opinions first.

As always, thank you for taking the time to help out a newbie.

What does the underside of that leaf look like?

Hi there, all looks ok to me.....if I stressed every time a seedling had a mark or spot I'd be in the crazy house. It looks fine, the phosphorus thing is not an issue and will go away when it warms up, you can give it all the p in the world but the seedling won't take it up if its cold. You really should need to water every few days when the pot feels light and a weak solution of a 'balanced' fert once a week if that'll make you feel better......and leave it in peace to grow

I agree with Antipodean. The purple colouring is probably just due to the cold, and full-strength fertilizer was probably over-kill. It's best to play it safe and only use half-strength fert. for seedlings.

Overall it looks healthy! I don't know what those little spots are, but if you have chlorine in your water it could possibly be due to that.

So glad to see that this little guy made it :)

Linda

All tomatoes seedlings I find are slightly purple when young, regardless. As long as it don't get too purple.

Go easy for the fertilizer while the plant is still small, over fertilizing will damage the plant.

Those spots on leaves look like oedema (edema) to me. Google it up. It is environmental condition occurring when combination of over-watering and lack of sunlight presents. It is usual issue with novice tomato growers. (Been there too). Cut on watering. Only water when finger stacked in the soil doesn't feel moister 1 inch deep. Also in addition to artificial light try to move the plant(together wit light) in the location where is more sunlight too (south/east window is much better then north/west). Good luck!

Seed starting mix is supposed to be very well draining, as too wet is worse for seedlings than too dry. The last thing you want when growing seedlings is a mix that holds on to water, and it's easier to add water to a pot than take it away. If the cost of it isn't an issue, there's nothing wrong with keeping them in seed starting mix until plant-out. Just, fertilize occasionally at 1/4 strength as needed.

Once the seedlings have a few true leaves, I don't water until the top part of the mix is bone dry. Top 1/2 inch if very small starter pots, top 1 inch in larger transplant pots. Occasionally, I've left it long enough that they start to wilt slightly, but they perk right up. Once again, very early damage from too little water is easier to fix than early damage from too much water.

I think galinas is right and the spots are probably edema, but this will be easier to see if you look at the underside of the leaf. If you have any indoor pests that might be causing issues, you will also see them on the undersides of leaves, so always check both sides of the leaves if you see any spots or lesions.

Hi all,

Documentation I've found on edema mentions blisters, but the leaf doesn't
have any. The spots are flat with the surface of the leaf and just appear as a difference in color. The underside
looks basically the same as the top. Image uploading doesn't seem to be working at the moment, so I posted a picture of the underside of the leaf here: http://imgur.com/a/6r1bA

I watered it yesterday because it was wilting. It was wilting again when I came home from work today, though this time it was to a greater degree: the top leaf was touching the ground. Once again, it felt dry, I gave it water and it perked up, so this doesn't sound consistent with having too much water. However, those more knowledgeable than me might know whether edema can present without blisters - or maybe I overdid it at some point in the past and have only noticed just now?

I don't know whether my tap water is treated with chlorine. I tried finding this information on my township's web site, but wasn't able to find anything. *shakes fist*

Regarding light: I'm not a fan of growing the plant with purely artificial light as I'm doing, but even indirect sunlight isn't really attainable in my apartment. It's a perfect storm: I'm surrounded by towering trees, sitting in the shadow of a hill, and my only window is tucked away under an awning. Also, the window is very drafty and single pane - and it's 16F outside as I write this. I keep the apartment itself warm, but the area near the window can't be helped; surfaces near it are quite cold to the touch. I'd be worried about putting the plant there to pick up a smattering of scattered light. I've pretty much resigned myself to having to purchase or construct some kind of serious lighting rig when the time comes.

Edema can look after the cells rupture. The view from below could be consistent with mild edema as well, particularly the fact that the spots are translucent. Not everything manifests in textbook fashion at every stage.

Excess fertilizer, could contribute to moisture issues including edema and rapid wilting. If the rapid wilting continues, you might consider giving it a really good flush. Going forward, a slight purple tinge from moderate phos. deficiency is kind of normal for seedlings and not a reason to fertilize, as maxjohnson says. Leaves turning yellowish, OTOH, is likely N related and a reason to give dilute liquid fert. of an all-purpose type.

RE: the light situation--just do the best you can. If that is edema, it's very mild and not something to fret about. The biggest risk it poses is that you'll worry it's disease and engage in over-intervention that kills the seedling, i.e. Death by Too Much Love. I would bet all of us have engaged in DTML as beginners and killed plants that way.

Just keep monitoring vigilantly as you are already doing, and if the spots change/get worse, take a photo and post.

IMO. the chlorine angle is rarely an issue. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

It really shouldn't need watering every day....so something is wrong! Did you pre-wet the mix with warm water before potting up? Peat is famous for being hydrophobic when dry, does the water drain straight through? I would try watering with warm water with a drop of dish washing liquid and sit in tray of water ('bottom watering') for an hour or so to saturate the peat.

Thanks all. If the spots get worse I'll let you know.

I stayed home today and saw that it's already back to wilting. It's been maybe 13 hours since it was last watered. The conversation so far suggests that I shouldn't water it again, and although it's helped the past two times, I think it's wise for me to take a pause to see what you all think might be going on.

I did make sure to thoroughly hand stir the mix with water before adding it to the pot. When I added it to the pot, it wasn't repelling water like it does when you first start mixing it. The water does run through somewhat quickly (but that's subjective, so maybe I should time it). I see a pretty decent amount come out (I'm not flooding it). Some water is retained.

Here's a picture taken a few moments ago. Could it be that it's getting top heavy and just can't support its own weight? Should I tie it off to support it, or should I try a third watering with a drop of dish soap?

Also, what amount of dilution would we be talking about? A drop to a gallon? A drop to how much I usually use for a single watering?

Thanks

Wilting? It actually looks pretty healthy to me. I wish you had some other seedlings so that you could compare. Try not to obsess about it :)

Linda

It looks fine, probably learning toward where the light source is, that's what tomato plants do.

I'm not giving enough information, and that's my fault. Here's a full picture showing the light setup. The light is directly above it, and the light and plant haven't moved for a month. Until two days ago, the plant was standing straight up. Please see the picture I posted on Wednesday for a comparison. It has completely fallen over.

See the circled leaf. The little yellow spec at the tip of the leaf is an arrow I drew which shows the distance between the leaf and the ground. The leaf was nowhere near the ground a few days ago. It too has completely collapsed.

In the time it took me to put this post together (only about 15 minutes), it has fallen further:

Did the wilting start after fertilizing? If so, there could be excess buildup of salts causing osmosis issues in the roots. Half strength is already kind of strong for a seedling, and IIRC, you followed it up with a full-strength application only a few days later?

I would give it a good, thorough flush with water. Let a ton of water run out of the bottom. Then monitor to see whether turgidity stabilizes and improves.

In future, fertilize at 1/4 strength only when needed, i.e., leaves are yellowing. Until flowering, tomatoes do best with an all-purpose fert, not a tomato-specific fert, as the most common deficiency for young plants is N (sometimes Mg).

I would definitely just relax and watch it do its thing. The more you water it, you risk doing more harm than good. If you have holes on the bottom of that pot, you should be bottom watering to minimize overwatering. If you have already fertilized it, I wouldn't fertilize again till it grows more. It's hard to just stop and let it do its thing, but I promise you the more you mess with it, the bigger the chance of harm you risk. It looks perfectly healthy to me from the recent pics. Don't go crazy over every little thing. It will drive you nuts. Some of my plants might not be perfect looking, but I know when it comes time to plant out, they will be fine.

Please leave it alone. It has grown, and some of the lower leaves do turn downwards towards the ground. Messing around with it isn't going to help.

Linda

PcolaGrower: If you have holes on the bottom of that pot, you should be bottom watering to minimize overwatering.

If you don't have holes on the bottom of that pot, you need to make some yesterday!

Looking at today's pics, the mix does look wet and saturated (not hydrophobic), agree with everyone else.....prob overwatering! plants also wilt with overwatering, you really only need to water every 3 or 4 days.

Take a thin stick, like barbecue skewer or plastic stick from fruit arrangement, insert it into the soil near pot edge on an angle toward your plant, then take a tie from the trash bag package, twist one end of it firmly to the stick, lift your tomato gently (do not force, just off the ground, you don't need vertical position) and make a LOOSE loop around the tomato stem with another end of the tie. Make sure it stays off the soil. Now, take DRY soil mix and pile it up gently around the base of the plant, about half inch high. This will serve two purposes: first, it will quickly suck excess water from the soil, and second, will create condition for the tomato to grow additional roots from the stem.

After that, please do me a favor. Stop looking at your plant for 3 days. Do not even come close, unless you need to turn your light on or off(By the way, to you turn it off for the night? You should. 14-16 hours of light is enough, plant needs to sleep too.) Look at this this way. If it is sick - there is nothing you really can do about it. It is a VERY old seed anyway. But if it is just loved too much - it will get better in 3 days. I do not see any real issues with it from your pictures other then over watering. It doesn't look weak, so just do not look at it ). In 3 days stick finger in the soil. If it feels dry one inch down - water. Add about 3 tb spoons of water, do not water until water comes out from the bottom. In any doubts - post new picture. I see, that you do not really assess the plant state correctly, we can help. One more thing. Put something(some kind of grid) under the pot to create a space between the bottom of the pot and the saucer, that will help water to come out faster and also will create some ventilation. You may also add a fan, just do not place it too close to the plant. All you need is good air circulation, not wind.

Thanks for the replies. I saw a couple of questions for me.

gorbelly
> Did the wilting start after fertilizing?

Yes, although the wilting wasn't seen immediately afterward. A few days went by, but perhaps it takes several days to see an effect, so I'm not not trying to imply that it's unrelated. Obviously I've made mistakes in fertilizing and watering.

PcolaGrower
> If you have holes on the bottom [...]

Yes, the pot has plenty of drainage.


It's been two days now, and I've seen first signs of improvement yesterday. It's been rather staggered and contradictory at times, but it's better than it was. I came home last night to see it standing straight up, and I thought yippee, we're done. Then it started drooping again, then it recovered a bit of the loss. It's done this up-and-down seesaw thing twice since taking a hands-off approach. Not sure why it would do that, but as you've all urged me to do, I'm leaving it alone -- giving it light only.

Galinas: yes, I turn the light off at night. It gets about 7 hours in in the dark. I've also tied it off as you've suggested, though I used embroidery thread, since it's a bit gentler. There's very little tension in the line - enough to lend some support.

Aside your current issues, what zone you are in and what are you going to do with the plant if it will do OK? You said it is 16F outside, and you are in apartment. So it tells me you are not in very warm zone, and you probably have no yard. What are you plans? And what you know about this tomato - is it determinate or indeterminate? It is very early to start tomatoes in cold zones, unless it is determinate and you going to use a large pot and grow it inside under light, a lot of light!

I'm in zone 6B. Sorry, I don't know anything about the type of tomato it is. I'll ask around my family to see if someone knows, but I don't think I'm going to find out much.

Given the age of the seeds, I was only expecting to get one or two plants out of the lot, if any, which unfortunately is how it played out (mostly). Out of 40 seeds, I planted 20. Of those, 4 germinated, 2 of which died immediately - one ran out of steam before it could fully break ground. I have the one I've been posting about, and another one which popped up long after my first post - it's teeny-tiny, and has just started putting out leaves.
Since I assumed that I'd have only 1 or 2 plants, the plan from the start was that I'd grow whatever I had indoors where it can be protected, and to put together some kind of major lighting rig to grow it under.

I haven't looked into lighting setups enough to know whether I'd be okay with standard fluorescent fixtures, or whether I'd have to buy some multi-hundred-dollar LED fixture like I've seen on Amazon. However, I've been kicking around an idea in my head about building a frame out of PVC pipe or lumber. I'm going to loop some chains around the top bar to suspend the fixture, and secure it with S hooks. I remember from my childhood and from pictures that these tomatoes grow taller than an adult. Whether that would happen indoors, I don't know, but if it turns out that light from the hanging fixture isn't effective on the lower parts of the plant, I figure I can attach supplemental lights to the poles.

I've seen some pots/planters at hardware stores that look like I might be able to sit inside them, so I figure I'm okay there.

I am afraid it is not possible to grow indeterminate tomato inside. It can grow into a huge bush, up to 8' tall, taking 16 sq foot of floor plan(4X4). With that height you need lights to be not on top, but along all the sides of the bush, top one will be useless for any leaves 10 inches down from top of the plant. Sure, you can prune it and you may be able to get one-two clusters of tomatoes before it overgrows its space. But you will have to do a very aggressive pruning. I would say, your best bet to save this tomato is to give the rest of the seeds to somebody else who has yard to plant it. If you have future plans to have your own yard, you can get fresh seeds from that person later and continue your grandpa's tomato line. I would be happy to grow it for you, if you do not have any friend or family members who gardens. Let me know.

Galinas, that's such a completely unexpected and generous offer. Thank you. I do have a friend who would probably be willing to grow my current seedlings for me. She likes digging holes. :) I'll have to ask her. Can I get back to you?

While I'm on this subject, I'm sometimes willing to go to extreme lengths to accomplish things. If I were to completely encircle each one with a wall of vertical T8 bulbs, would that be enough light? If not, or if there's some kind of drawback to this, I'll abandon the idea of growing indoors and accept that they're going outside somewhere, somehow.

Since it's been 4 days, time for me to give an update. I think it's recovered pretty well. It's perked up and looks sturdy. The line that's tied to it is no longer needed to keep it upright - it would be OK without it.

It was dry, so I gave it a little bit of water a couple of hours ago. This is the first drink it's had in 4 days. Water didn't drain from the bottom - I didn't give it enough for that.

I would like to ask whether anyone knows why the leaves would be curling down like this. This is new. Did I go too far in the other direction and wait too long to water it, or is this some other issue? Most of the larger leaves are curved like a claw. One or two are basically flat but curved inward at the tips.

A final question, this one about plant physiology. I mentioned earlier that I observed what I called a "seesawing" of the longest branch - alternating significantly in height. I've observed this behavior long enough now to see a pattern. It sits lower throughout the day. Then, when there's about an hour to go in its 'day', the branch rises significantly and stays that way until I wake up to go to work. This definitely seems to be part of a circadian rhythm. Does anyone know why that happens? This question comes purely from an interest in biology - I might learn something. :)

Growing indoors isn't impossible, from what I understand, but it's most difficult to do successfully with fruiting plants (as opposed to leafy greens, green onions, herbs, etc.). There's an indoor gardening forum on here that you might want to check out. But your best bet to preserve the line is to have someone experienced grow at least one plant outdoors.

As for your "droopy" leaves... sometimes seedlings just do that. There are some varieties that are more prone to it even as adult plants, such as many oxhearts and some paste tomatoes. People have been known to pull up perfectly healthy plants thinking there was a failure to thrive issue when that's just how certain varieties look. But as young seedlings, drooping can happen to any of them. Several times a day, brush your seedling gently with your hands to mimic the force of a breeze on it. The stress stimulates it to grow stronger, more rigid stems and leaves.

Leaf edge curl like that can be a result of stress or pests. Or it can just happen sometimes for unknown reasons to young, tender leaves. It usually fixes itself as the leaf grows larger and thicker. If you don't see any pests, I wouldn't worry about it.

underwater_dragonsquid, sure you can get back to me on this - I start my tomatoes in a month, so you have time to search around for options. For the lights - yes, you can do it, but you will need two types of lights - cool for vegetative grows(6500K) and warm(2700K) for fruiting. The problem with it is, when fruiting starts, you still have vegetation to grow, so you need both. And you need certain amount of each range. But long tubes are usually not that strong to provide enough for plant to be happy. It is enough to keep it until it finally can get outside, but not for successful fruiting. There are also some special plant lights that closer to sun range and stronger, but they are terribly expensive. So my advice - be nice to your friend, and let her grow it outside, you grandpa's tomato will be much more happier there.

Like others have said... get that plant outside as soon as you can.

Another reason for not growing indoors is that insects will be a problem much more inside than out.

Also, I know you have gotten advice to not water until it drains out the bottom, but I disagree with this. If you constantly only water half of the soil, you will get salt acummalation near the bottom of the soil from the water draining the salts from the upper part of the soil down to where the water makes it as opposed to out of the pot. Also, by watering in a manner that never gets the lower soil wet, the roots have no reason to go there, slowing the root formation.

The advice to water a little was only temporary, until plant has a chance to regrow roots damaged by over-watering. As soon as plant looks healthy you can start water normal way, just do it when at least 1 top inch of soil is completely dry.

IMO, the stake you have put in the pot is only making the plant weaker. Put a fan on the plant or brush the plant very often with your hand and that will strengthen the stem. If grown with enough light and not too much water, and enough space and some wind, the stem will get strong on its own. Staking it now just facilitates the stem not needing to grow strong.

Again, what you saying is right, but not when plant already on the ground. Fan helps to make stem stronger, agree, but not when it is on the ground. You need to bring the plant to stronger state, then you can deal with the rest. By the way, what I suggested for the stake shouldn't fix the plant, it only should keep it upright when it is really weak. My test tomato on the picture

I did not realize that the OP's plant had gotten to the point that it was laying on the ground.

My advice is not to plant any of the remaining 20 seeds. Practice with seeds you don't care about. Same for the friend that likes to dig holes. Let them practice with seeds you don't care about and see what happens.