Work zone and layout help, pt 2
I posted a couple of weeks ago and received some great, intial advice on the kitchen's layout and as suggested, we had the architect increase aisle widths and lengths. I've spent a lot of time reading through this forum and have learned a lot. Nevertheless, I was planning to hire a KD but I have not been impressed with the portfolios of the two, local KDs that were recommended -- their focus was seemingly more form over function. So, at this point, I've put a hold on hiring a KD and, as such, could use some advice on appliance layout and work zones. I would love to have a better plan before we meet with a cabinet maker next week. We are thinking of using Conestoga cabinets but want to have a basis for cost comparison.
Any feedback on or suggestions to changing/improving the layout, work zones or appliance location would be greatly appreciated
Thanks!!
*********
What is your family composition? 2 Adults, 3 kids (11, 4, 2) with another due in March and then we are DONE
How many kitchen workers are there? 2 adults but my kids love to "help"
Do you or anyone in your home cook? All the time. 3+ meals a day
How do you see your kitchen used? Just for cooking/cleaning up.
Do you entertain a lot? Currently somewhat frequently but informally, like parent attended play dates. We plan to entertain more once the new house is built
Do you have a separate DR? It is connected to the kitchen
Cabinets: Two of the walls will only be lowers, mostly pull out drawers. I might have a few small spots for open shelving, perhaps for glasses and mugs. There will be a wide island with cabinets on both sides. The third wall (with the fridge) will be a combo pull out pantry and larder
Range or Cooktop or Range-top: My preference is to have a 30" induction cooktop with a 24" griddle topped (only) range (probably a Bluestar. We currently have a 48" gas range with a 12" griddle and we use the griddle all the time. I love gas but want the induction (for safety) since my kids are always helping in the kitchen
Single or Double or no Wall Oven: We will have the 24" gas oven that is in the Bluestar range. I also want a 30" steam oven
Warming Drawer: Would Iike but probably don't have the space
MW: built in on lower cabinets or a MW drawer
DW: one standard
Refrigerator: 36" French door with bottom freezer. (I'd prefer a 42" or a 24" refrigerator column/18" freezer column but I don't think there is room.
Ventilation Hood: Not sure. Will probably have to be custom and I'm fine with it in front of a window.
Pantry: Pull out cabinets with larder
Mudroom: Adjacent to the kitchen wil have some strorage
Baking Center: no
Coffee center: maybe in larder. In the dining room, there will a wet bar/beverage center
Do you want a snack center: no
Can windows or doorways change size: yes
Can they be moved or eliminated: yes
Can windows be raised/lowered: yes
Can any walls come down: no
Does the sink have to be centered under a window: no
Does it have to be under a window at all: yes
Is there anything you:
Cannot live without? lots of natural light
Definitely do not want? I want to minimize the amount of upper cabinets. I'm very petite and so are all my kids. I find upper cabinets difficult to access and hate that my kids are always crawling on the counters to access them. We have planned windows in place of upper cabinets
First picture: layout of 1st floor
Second picture: The architects ideas of where the appliances should go. He has a 48" gas range with 24" griddle and 2 separate ovens. But as described above, I'm hoping to use different cooking setup.
Third picture: My ideas for increasing workspace efficiency. I'm not sold on this but I'm having trouble thinking of alternatives.
1) Cooking Zone
2) Prep Zone
3) Clean up Zone
4) Microwave Drawer
5) Prep sink
Comments (17)
Buehl
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoKclarew
7 years agoRelated Discussions
Choice of 2 1-zone mini split and 1 2-zone mini split
Comments (8)Smaller units will require a smaller backup genset to run one at a time if you want to do that. (Inverter units are already very good with gensets, btw.) As others have pointed out, efficiency may be higher with the 1:1 systems. Some mini splits can cool and heat simultaneously transferring heat from one room to another, but these are rarely seen in residential situations because they are more expensive. It may only be available in systems with more indoor units. There is one downside to heat/cool units if you only need cooling. Complexity is increased meaning more things to break. I don't know if that is significant. I had a reversal valve fail under warranty which cost the installer, but not me. Note that if you have oil heat, the heat pumps may be a less expensive way to heat. Two 1:1 systems means another compressor unit sitting outside. If I had all 1:1 systems, I'd have seven compressors sitting on pads :-( You should know that the better mini splits have inverter-controlled compressors and variable speed blowers. This combination increases efficiency and comfort by stabilizing temperature and improving humidity control. Now consider this. A single unit that can throttle back to 30% of 6000 BTU can run at a 2000 BTU minimum. If you have an outdoor unit that can run 12,000 BTU your minimum becomes 4000 BTU. I believe that the smallest multi Mitsubishi compressor unit is 20,000 BTU so in this example, its minimum might be 6,000 BTU so you gain little from variable speed unless you are running both units at the same time. This would be enough to make me go with 1:1 in your situation despite "slight" increased cost and another unit to maintain. In addition to those arguments, if the price is similar, but you are running one compressor at a time most of the time, you get more longevity for the compressors....See MoreIs this an unhealthy marriage pt 2-we're both in shock
Comments (34)Worried: I wouldn't call our relationship loveless. I love him very much. I believe he loves me. He says often enough and tenderly enough. Yes he has control issues and I have issues dealing with his control. But things have changed a lot since our confrontation and he does try to listen more. As for if I'm happy well at this time we're trying to deal with this situation so I wouldn't say there is a general feeling of happiness. But we're not directing the unhappiness toward each other. When he's not working we are together a lot. Problem is he's working a lot. Lucky for me that whether he's really working is easy for me to know the reason for his trip is work. That doesn't really prove whether he could be cheating although when I've asked him if he is/has he says no. He doesn't act withdrawn but I'm aware that he still could be. I enjoy being with him and he seems to enjoy being with me. Our sex life is everything I could want and he sure seems satisfied too. But he is also very affectionate outside of sex. I pretty much can't keep my hands off him and if ever want to get him to not act angry just touching him usually does it. Doesn't change his mind much but does change his demeanor. But he doesn't speak roughly to me often anyway. Like I said in my first post I almost wish he didn't treat me in the manner that he does because then I could easier resist him. Thanks to Mkroop for pointing that out as manipulation but Lawd! It's still hard to resist him even when armed with that knowledge. Granted in the past that has been because I just let him have his way but that has changed some too. I guess I really need to look up that word narcissistic to see what else is involved other than control. One positive I have gotten from all of your posts is speaking up for myself and not being afraid to oppose him. I don't know what my fear was with that other than not wanting to be a nag for fear it would drive us apart and our marriage wouldn't last. I remember hearing one of my sisters say that he husband was the boss until she started having kids. Now she is definitely the queen bee so I guess there's hope for me yet. This post was edited by wifey1281 on Wed, Dec 5, 12 at 7:32...See MoreWork zones layout - should I change anything?
Comments (23)I agree with Rhome. In the above layout, the refrigerator is far from both the sink and the cooktop. If you swap the fridge with the ovens, at least it's close to the cooktop, but no further from the sink. Given the constraints you have with not changing the footprint, I think doing this simple swap will give you a kitchen that will make you very happy. Most of us have had to compromise in some way to get MOST of what we want, though I still envy those who got it all. I'm not bothered by the island not being centered on the dining room entrance. Nevertheless, if it's a concern for you, I think you have space to shift it a bit closer to the range. We had less than 36" between the island and the cooktop at our old beach house (they templated the granite wrong and put the overhang on the range side instead of opposite and we didn't notice before we bought it hahahahaha...what a surprise!; of couse, we couldn't put stools there!) and believe it or not it worked even with a houseful of guests....See MoreLayout - Round 2 - Please help :)
Comments (2)Thx for your vote Lavender Lass - I think I'm going back to that option too. And, yes, we could make one of the cabs see-through (i.e., the left side of the bar with the 4"x4" beam). Possibly not with the larger 6"x6" structural beam that runs through the back of the right side of the bar. But I need to ask the architect that - great question! I was also thinking of keeping the coffee maker and speed oven in their stack but still doing two flanking cabs on the bar. Instead of being 28" each, they'd be 18" and I'd still have 5 feet of landing space on the counter. What do you think? Regarding the tv, right now, we have it on the far right wall. It's a flat screen that my husband adores and has engineered all of the sound system and high-tech speakers around it. I'm totally with you - as far as the location - but I'm not sure I'm going to win :). Thx again for all your great comments. Have a nice weekend :). P.S. Here's another pic of doing the glass cabs on both sides with a glass connector across the top. I could always make one side of the glass cab as glass - and panel in the other side - if the beams are too hard to get around. Now you got me thinking about what to ask my architect - thx! ">...See More
cpartist
7 years ago
mama goose_gw zn6OH
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoI was thinking along the same lines as buehl, but made the door a pocket door, which can be left open if you don't need the mudroom to function as an airlock. I put the MW drawer on the island, but couldn't decide which direction it should face. Do you use it more for reheating leftovers and snacks, or for cooking?
I think I'd move the door from the deck over a few inches and put the lockers and bench just inside the door, rather than in the doorway beside the oven.
Kclarew
7 years agoKclarew
7 years agoBuehl
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoHere's something a little different.
[Note: I had also drawn one up very similar to MamaGoose's, but I didn't finish it when I saw that she had posted hers.]
This one has a pantry with shallow shelves. you can fit far more in a pantry like this than in cabinets (and for much less money). However, if you prefer cabinets, you could replace the pantry with cabinets.
It's late (after 2am here on the East Coast), so no time for a detailed analysis. I will try to find time tomorrow to post a detailed analysis if you're interested.
Of note:
- There are no upper cabinets at all.
- The base cabinets are all drawer bases (except for the sink and trash pullout(s))
- All windows are counter-height (one to the right of the hood and one on the right wall)
- The sink window is a 7" bumpout. See this thread for examples - in particular, MamaDadaPaige's and ErikaNH's. Both have inside and outside pictures of their windows in the thread.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2484108/counter-height-window-pictures-please
.
Zone Map:
mama goose_gw zn6OH
7 years agoKclarew, oops, I saw the following, and my brain interpreted the single small window in the kitchen as overlooking an outdoor deck space with steps. So I thought you might want a bench for anyone entering from that direction, to change shoes or hang up a jacket. I realize now that the arrow pointing toward the shallow cabinet beside the ovens is not connected to the text above it, but the text is part of the drawing above--which is good, because I thought that was a strange place for a bench.
BTW, I really like the fridge on the wall where buehl placed it. That would have been my first choice, since it's near the living areas, but it's at the opposite end from the pantry/larder, and it's generally accepted practice to put the fridge and pantry in close proximity, near the entrance where groceries will be brought in. Also, I couldn't think of a better location for the wall oven, and I've often read than undercounter ovens are too low to be convenient. If it's a second oven, which won't be used often, maybe that advice doesn't apply. TBH, I'd choose an UC oven any day, just to have a second oven for baking, and for holiday meals.
I almost changed the large window, too, but then realized that if it's centered, your main view is the cars. ;)
Kclarew
7 years agoKclarew
7 years agopractigal
7 years agoBuehl
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoAh! Yes, I thought you meant range + 2 other ovens! That's better b/c now you have another 30" of storage and can add it to the 15" for 45" to be divvied up as needed (e.g., 24" + 21").
New layout - with tweaks:
.
Zone Map:
.
Regarding locating the refrigerator & pantry together - I would rather have the refrigerator convenient to the Prep & Cooking Zones than put them together just for the sake of putting away groceries. How often do you bring in large amounts of groceries to put away? How often do you need to use the refrigerator while prepping and cooking? If you're like most of us, you use the refrigerator while prepping & cooking far more often than you're bringing in large amounts of groceries. You can easily put the grocery bags for the refrigerator on the island and when you're done bringing the bags into the house, go to first the refrigerator and then the pantry to put the items away. No extra carrying of any bags.
Why did I move the refrigerator?
(1) To make it convenient to the Prep & Cooking Zones
(2) Minimize zone-crossing (crossing through the Cleanup Zone to go b/w the refrigerator and Prep/Cooking Zones, for example)
(3) To make it convenient to get to the refrigerator from the Dining Room, Screened Porch, Living Room, and Family Room
(4) To allow everyone to access the refrigerator without getting in each others' way. It's even better now with the new information - see Layout #2. There is some overlap, but I think the aisles are wide enough that it won't be much of an issue. Note that I adjusted the aisle widths a bit.
Visual of paths of refrigerator access:
.
To contrast the original refrigerator location:
Notice the crisscrossing of the paths b/w the refrigerator and primary work zones. In particular, crossing through the Cleanup Zone repeatedly b/w the refrigerator and Prep and Cooking Zones. In addition, the island is a barrier b/w the island Prep Zone and the refrigerator.
Another thing to look at is the very real possibility that people going to/from the LR and Screened Porch may be tempted to cut through the Kitchen if they think it will be a shorter path (human beings like the shortest distance!) It's represented by the green broken line below.
Buehl
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoBuehl
7 years agoOh, and regarding passthroughs - you can still do them with a bit of tweaking:
With 24" windows at counter-height, you can add counter on the other side for easier use. For the deck, I show it as 15" deep, but you can make it whatever depth you want - just keep in mind the door from the Porch to the Deck. For the Porch, it's shallower b/c of the same door.
Kclarew thanked Buehlmama goose_gw zn6OH
7 years ago
smm5525