I want to utilize the formal dining room space as something more functional. Aside from the bigger kitchen and pantry, I want to incorporate a mudroom and possibly laundry room. Currently, the washer/dryer are in the basement and if I take them up to the second floor of the house, I would only be able to squeeze them into a closet in the bonus room above the garage – which I’ll do if it just doesn’t make sense as part of the main floor renovation.

The only restrictions we are aware of having not consulted professionals yet:

• The windows in the dining room are on the front of the house and can’t be moved or changed in size.
• The walls between the kitchen and morning room are likely load bearing but I think posts could be easily integrated into the kitchen design.
• Hubby thinks that the central vent in the wall between the current kitchen and dining room can’t be moved? I really hope that’s not true.

Other questions I answered in the FAQ:

Do you bake a lot and do you want a Baking Center?

I do bake and a baking center would be lovely but an efficient layout is king.

Do you want a coffee/tea/beverage center?

Not necessarily, but I want to minimize the steps that need to be taken to make coffee (water to fill/clean pot and creamer from the fridge)

Do you want a snack center?

I want the kids to be able to get snacks without being underfoot while I’m working in the kitchen.

Range or Cooktop or Rangetop?

36” burner gas rangetop. So excited to get gas!!

Single or Double or no Wall Oven?

Double electric ovens

Warming Drawer?

No

MW?

Yes but not sure I have a preference for type or location. I’m more concerned about where we’ll put a toaster oven. It’s easily one of the most used appliances.

DW?

I already have my dream dishwasher – a MieleJ

Refrigerator

My dream is to have an all fridge/freezer but I’m open to doing a 36” French door if it means a superior layout. We have a second fridge in the garage which I go into daily!

Ventilation Hood?

Need to have one installed! We currently have no ventilation at all!

***** Very Important *****

Is there anything you:

• Cannot live without?
  • Not sure I can’t live without it, but I really want two sinks and I love the idea of a galley style kitchen.
• Would like if you can find a way?
  • A sink on the same stretch as the cooktop. Dripping water and carrying chopped food across the aisle annoys meJ
  • Incorporation of a “Keeping Room” or comfy seating area. Definitely not critical though.

I’ve been poking around in the Kitchen forum for years and may have dreamed up characteristics of a kitchen that isn’t possible in our footprint, but I’m stoked to see what you gurus come up with. At this point, I’m open to anything! Thank you, thank you for taking time to read through this and help!!

Now for pictures of the current space and my crude attempt to draw a floorplan.

Floorplan

Current Kitchen

Morning Room (note difference in ceiling height)

Morning Room looking into Kitchen

Standing in Morning room looking toward the front of the house (Dining room thru left doorway and hallway to front door on right. Door leading down to basement))

Opening to Dining Room by front door

Welcome! Great intro and explanation of your needs. I love your morning room. Can you clarify the size of the dining room? Is the 13' 4"wall next to the garage, or along the front of the house where the windows are located? I'd like to try to draw up some ideas later, but I want to make sure of your measurements first. Thanks!

Here's a quick and rough idea which accommodates the HVAC, and gives you a laundry room just off the stairs. There is a sliding door on the pantry, and if your washer is front loading, you could use a slider on the laundry, too. Not sure if the dryer could be vented in that location. Without drawing it on an accurate grid, I'm not sure everything will fit, but I'm sure you'll get more suggestions. I love your morning room, and decorating style. Good luck!

Nice, Mamagoose. Auntiedidi, is there any chance the entrance from the garage to the kitchen can be slid closer to the front of the house? If so, it would make the kitchen as MG drew safer, more connected, and even more functional.

I like mamagoose's concept. Could you move the garage door out of the kitchen and down to the area she has labeled locker/bench? That would give you uninterrupted wall space for the appliances, more counterspace next to the cooktop, and get the through traffic out of the kitchen and encourage people to use the gallery to get from the garage to the stairs and powder room.

Edit: Just saw laughablemoments and I had the same thought.

Great minds think alike, Stan Z. : )

Excellent suggestion, both of you. Moving the garage entry far enough to put the oven and landing space on the kitchen side would work well, and would take a few steps off the path to the rooms upstairs, as well as provide a drop zone just inside the door:

Mama, I wonder if the laundry door can be put opposite the lockers. I know at my house, laundry sometimes overflows and the door doesn't always stay closed. Seems it would be better hidden with the opening that direction. Space may not permit though.

I would think so--the pantry door could slide the opposite direction, over the HVAC wall, leaving room for the laundry room door to slide. Maybe one long track could be used for both doors. I was trying to make the laundry door more convenient for someone carrying dirty clothes down the stairs, but the long uninterrupted wall facing the windows could be used for coat hooks. I'm imagining beadboard wainscoting:

Ooooo!! Thanks for the welcome and kind words. This is SO exciting! Thank you MamaGoose for your renderings and for complimenting my decor:) I love so many aspects of what you drew. I'm thrilled with the idea of the laundry door being right at the bottom of the stairs but Kathryn's point is something to ponder and would give me more wall space...hmmmm.

So does everyone think a second prep sink won't really work in my footprint? I was bummed not to see it in Mama's plan and after thinking about it....realized it's because I so often go to the sink to rinse and get annoyed by it being full of dirty dishes:-O Also, I like to thaw frozen meat in cold water.

Laughable and Stan - yes the garage door can be moved! The only restriction there is that there are some pipes housed in drywall on the garage side of that wall that have to stay. I've included them in my latest drawing.

This is as close to scale as I am capable. I hope it's readable!!

So does everyone think a second prep sink won't really work in my footprint? I was bummed not to see it in Mama's plan and after thinking about it....realized it's because I so often go to the sink to rinse and get annoyed by it being full of dirty dishes:-O Also, I like to thaw frozen meat in cold water.

I would look into getting a Kohler Stages sink to do that. I think it would be the perfect solution for your family and lifestyle.

There isn't as much as space as I'd hoped, between the HVAC and the wall between the kitchen and morning room. I included an integrated cutting board in the sink, but the stages sink, as cpartist mentioned, might be another (expensive) alternative. The pony wall between the kitchen and morning room could be eliminated, which would could add 6" to the 18" cabinet on the end.

I left the doors to the laundry on the gallery side--if the doors are switched to the other side, the W/D will need to be placed against the wall shared with the stairs, and there would be room for only one narrow laundry pull-out. If you wanted to push the W/D all the way to one side in the plan as I've drawn it, you could have an 18" base cabinet with a small sink. In both plans laundry would need to be stored in baskets on shelves above.

The bench and lockers/closet could be flipped, but if you or your guests remove shoes at the from door, you might want to keep the bench in the corner, m/l equidistant between the two entry doors.

Not sure where to put the MW, unless it's part of the wall oven stack. If you choose to use the standard fridge/freezer, rather than the all fridge/all freezer, a MW snack center could be built into the void where the freezer is drawn.

Hmm, the accurate dimensions confirm this space a real challenge (narrow with doors everywhere). There isn't much opportunity to improve counterspace or storage. Some ideas (sorry most come with construction changes):

1) Extend base cabinets/drawers along the wall into the morning room (in place of the hutch in your photos). Maybe add uppers if you have a lot of glassware or an appliance garage so it still looks like a hutch. This would require modification to the suspected load bearing wall unfortunately but since the morning room is 20 feet across there should be room to do it. Extending the counter this way would give you enough space to comfortably use the cooktop plus additional storage.

2) Put the 30" ovens between the ducting and stairs then go with a standard sized 36" or 42" wide fridge/freezer unit instead of the 32" + 32" = 64" dual units planned. This would get you about two extra feet of counterspace and storage along the garage wall. You mentioned that you have a second fridge in the garage that you plan to keep. I know the 32" frigidaire units are popular because they cost a lot less than Thermador or Sub Zero columns but they are not a standard US size and could be difficult to replace in the future.

3) Is the potential laundry room space upstairs near the bonus room connected to the rest of the 2nd floor and are there plumbing connections nearby? Would it be more spacious? Having the laundry near the bedrooms would be nice and if you are opening up all the walls/ceilings below for the kitchen remodel it might not be as expensive as it sounds. This would give you space for a very large pantry or a coat closet. A few people on this board have discussed putting their freezer in a large pantry which is another idea you could explore in this option.

Even just one of these would I think help make this awkward space given to you by the builder more usable.

I'm not sure I can improve upon mamagoose's plan too much. I would suggest rearranging the oven wall a little bit, perhaps like this in order to get landing space closer to the oven:

I'm concerned that you don't have enough counter or storage space in the kitchen proper. Have you considered using a double oven 30" range? This would give you two ovens, without sacrificing as much storage or counter space. Also, many members here who used to love gas cooking now are adamant induction users. Please check that out before committing to gas. I went with a large gas cooktop when we remodeled our kitchen 2 years ago, and wish that I had done induction instead. Both the responsiveness and ease of cleanup would have be so much better. I thought I needed tons of burner space, but find that I usually don't use more than 3 burners at a time, even for our family of 9 that's home all day (although I do appreciate the extra space that a larger cooktop gives me.)

Kitchenaid Induction Double Oven range at Home Depot

Double Oven Gas Ranges

There are also 36" ranges with large ovens under them as yet another option.

I hope you can confirm whether or not the HVAC is using that whole column. Shrinking it or moving it so that it's next to the stairs might open up new possibilities.

The other thing I might change in the MG plan is to put the bench closer to the garage door. That's where I'd be setting things that were heading out to the car: the library bag, things to be taken to someone's house, etc.

Laughablemoments, I had the same thought about the bench, but didn't have time to do the second version last night. It would open up the space around the entry, and leave room for light switches. Also it would give a more organized view from the front entry, and provide a close space for a laundry hamper:

I wouldn't put the oven in the freezer space, because there is no adjacent landing space, and the island landing space is across a busy traffic aisle.

I'm hoping benjesbride notices this post and has some suggestions--she is excellent at rearranging living spaces. :)

I'm not sure the wall dividing the kitchen and morning room is not weight-bearing, so if you need a support post, it could be incorporated into the cabinets beside the ovens, with another one on the corner of the island, if necessary. I also tweaked the cabinet and appliance line-up in the following plan, to give you 27" bases on each side of the cooktop--provided no post is needed. Since the oven is no longer in the path from the garage entry, I made the pantry door flush with the laundry wall, and added a command center/message board to the side of the HVAC column. Also omitted the upper beside the door, to add to the open feeling. I'm not sure which direction to have the entry door swing--right to left (facing it from inside) if you want to funnel traffic to the mudroom upon entry?

The island was also moved closer to the top wall. I don't know how much space is between the window and the wall in the morning room, so I guessed at hutch depth.

I like the upgraded back wall Mamagoose.

My brain decided to work right when I was ready to shut it off on this project. :-)

This is a lot more compact kitchen, but it works with the basic layout you have now. If you are comfortable with your current aisle widths, it might be ok for you.

I extended the peninsula and moved the sink and DW farther down so that the corner isn't so tight by the stove. You could store your dishes in drawers either next to the DW or across the aisle in the island. There is one stool at the end of the island.`

If you decide you still want a double oven, it could go where I stuck the pantry, next to the HVAC. Then the storage in the laundry area could be used for pantry goods. I wonder if doing a stackable washer and dryer would be a more efficient use of space, but I can't take any more time to play this morning. (I could play with floor plans all day...) I've also thought about splitting the storage space of the pantry between the fridge and the laundry area, but haven't drawn it all up yet.

Bumping the backs of the fridge and freezer into the garage would give you a wider walkway into the kitchen, which would be nice for those large appliance door swings.

I put an entry area into the front of the house. It would be a nice spot for someone visiting to take off their shoes, set their purse, look in the mirror, etc.

I'd hate to see you lose that front room. What if you extended the kitchen into the addition in a way that doesn't change your pretty windows?

You could create a mudroom hall from the garage with stackable washer and dryer + clothes sorter maybe where your present closet and fridge are (or maybe the doorway to the present dining room?)?

If you framed in the foyer entrance to the present dining room and added a door/doors you would still have a quiet/away space on this floor.

Dining table could be in the present formal living room. It would be a pretty welcome from the front door.

I've seen this family/kitchen relationship referred to as a "[BROKEN PLAN[(https://www.houzz.com/magazine/open-plan-not-your-thing-try-broken-plan-stsetivw-vs~62008991)"

eta: Mama - I just saw your sweet compliment. Thank you so much! I love playing around with the big picture, but I'm glad for you and others who are so good at working out the fine details.

That's a really interesting idea, benjesbride. Where are you proposing the OP's family eat their everyday meals together? There are three children plus mom home for breakfast and lunch, and it seems like a long haul to the dining room for those meals. I like the away room concept. : )

Hey Everyone!

Lots to respond to here and I'm short on time at the moment but will jump back in as soon as possible! I am reading everyone's input and fell asleep last night mulling over MG's plan:) . And thanks for piping in Benjesbride!

OK, so I do have an away room concept in the formal living room. It's what guests see when I open the door and great place for people to get away from the clatter or life in the back of the house. It's also where the kids practice piano. I'm attaching pics for you to see. I would have more heartburn losing this room than the formal dining room. Also, our large farmhouse table will not fit into either the formal dining or living spaces. It is 9'x4'.

I have definitely toyed with the idea of extending the kitchen into the Morning Room but just couldn't "see" if it would look forced because of the ceiling. A soffit is not something I thought of and I will surely be looking around for some inspiration pics! I definitely would like to see that pony wall gone. I'm sure there must be away to incorporate a post. The Morning Room is also narrow at 9 feet wide.

My ideal is to have the appliances that are listed in MG's plan but I am certainly open to other appliance arrangements! The appliances in order of greatest desire would be: more cooktop/landing space for hot foods, two ovens, and then refrigeration. I've even thought about doing a 48" range to get the increased cooking real estate and double ovens.

If the laundry goes upstairs, it will indeed be closer to the bedrooms - a huge plus! The downsides to that are I'm on the main floor more, I think I get more space if it's on the main floor and I have to put it in a place that I'm not sure really "makes sense". The upstairs floorplan is as perplexing to me as the main floor! To that end, I was glad to read Stan's comment about my space being a real challenge! I've been puzzling over this since we bought the place! I wish I could draw digitally like y'all! It's so frustrating that the breakfast area space is hard to incorporate.

Laughable, I've drawn something similar to your plan in the past but I do lose the everyday dining space and this is similar to my current plan which seems to invite people to come loiter in my aisles and work area (cooking/cleaning).

I hope I don't seem contradictory. Trying to provide feedback and more info to fuel your creative powers and loving the ability to discuss!

Gotta run but be back soon!

Formal living room:

View from the front door:

I just got a new laptop, switching to a mac so I'm feeling a bit disabled today :-) In my drawing above, I was thinking that the front room would open to the family room, but it's still a hike to/from the kitchen. I thought most meals could be taken at the island if there was an open end in the morning room seating 6 -- two on each side.

I've thought a bit more and I'm wondering... Is there a landing at the top of the stairs or is the door casing basically at the edge of the step?

What do you think about the hallway lined with hooks and a stackable washer and dryer from the garage door to the basement stair?

Do you think the cold air return could be moved next to the staircase? It probably depends where it returns upstairs and downstairs.

I didn't catch this dimension upthread. What is the width of the wall separating the kitchen from the morning room. It has a wreath on it in the photo below...

Hi Benje!

Welcome to the Mac world! I love my Mac:)

That wall is 10.25" wide. The steps begin immediately going down to basement - no landing. I don't know if HVAC can be moved easily...they just go downstairs, not up.

How do you all create your simple drawings? I feel like that would be so much easier than paper/pencil.

So far, I'm really loving the walk-in pantry and laundry room MG dreamed up but if instead it was either a reach-in pantry or cabinet pantry and the laundry was upstairs....would that help with all the layout issues? In my brainstorming, I couldn't figure it out because of the HVAC, but maybe y'all could?

OH! Maybe I should have asked how long the wall is. The length from the end by the cabinets to the corner on the garage side.

It's 57.25"

Some of us use Paint on a PC for altering floorplans. We copy your images and paste them into Paint, then we can draw right on top of the pictures. One trick is to copy and paste 2 of the same floorplans side by side. That way you can fiddle with one while referring to the original.

If that's not your style, you can do one layout of the first floor without any cabinets in it. Photocopy multiple sheets of it. Then attack the blank floor plans with a pencil, eraser and white-out. Draw as many potential layouts as you can think of doing. Get out the colored pencils and shade elements different colors if that helps you visualize. I had stacks of these when laying out our kitchen and carried them with me throughout the house like a kid with a blankie and pacifier. I had a folder, then graduated to a magazine file box. I think it's some type of layout collection sickness-ha!

If Beuhl or Sena stops by, you might get to see some really impressive drawings. Beuhl uses Excel and her drawings are beautifully organized. Sena uses Chief Architect which produces lifelike 3d renderings.

I like mama goose's pantry/laundry arrangement, but I tried to move the laundry closer to the exterior wall for easier venting. I'm not too happy with the results though.

Another one. Laundry is shallower, so room is more open.

In the kitchen I tried to Iadd a second sink.

On the island, I just have the main sink and the DW along with seats. I think the Sunroom is quite narrow for your 39" table, so having the island shorter may help.

Although I'd consider a wall oven a must have at my age, I believe you are young enough to live with a range. So here's one with a 48" range.

If basement stairs don't get much traffic you can consider turning the island.

Sena's closet at the bottom of the stairs sparked another idea, along with Kathryn P's earlier suggestion to put the laundry room door on the other side, and laughablemoments' laundry room ideas. This version gives you a closet, which is convenient to the front entry, and a laundry hamper convenient to the stairs. I included a small sink, with cabinets above, and you could have a fold-down ironing board recessed into the wall shared with the HVAC. If you want to get fancy, the laundry dump could tilt out, or roll out to the hallway (like a trash pull-out), and storage could be built above it (high enough that you don't bonk your head while retrieving laundry from the other side. ;) It could probably be built to roll out to either side, making it more convenient to remove the dirty laundry. The shelves above could also be accessed from both sides, and each family member could retrieve his/her freshly laundered and folded clothing from his/her designated shelf. Or, if you deliver laundry to their bedrooms, laundry baskets could be stored above the hamper.

The walk-in pantry is gone :(, and the freezer has been banished to the garage. There is a full-height pantry next to the 36" fridge, and the message center is now storage for canned goods. (I have a shallow pantry like this in my kitchen, and it's perfect for cans and small boxes.)

The cavity beside the HVAC is now a snack/breakfast center with the MW on a shelf and extra deep drawers below. It could also be a coffee center, and could have a beverage fridge below, instead of the drawers.

Oh wow Sena! That is immensely helpful in getting a feel for what these layouts would feel like! Much thanks for taking the time!

I had the same thought as you about venting where MamaG has the laundry, but hubby thinks it's possible because our basement is unfinished in that area. The current laundry machines reside in the back basement corner right under the kitchen. I'm intrigued by what you drew and if I had to push the laundry to the garage wall, I'd probably go with your shallow laundry so I wouldn't lose the light from the front window. That little closet next to the machines could hold my laundry baskets - my preferred way to sort and store dirty laundry. Cool!

I have this in my front hallway that I'll likely keep for guests once we have our own mudroom space. We had to get creative with the pony wall in the kitchen and building this because the tiny coat closet by the powder room is half taken by the vacuum!

I'm really intrigued by Sena's double oven layout! I'm not sure I've seen a range that close to a corner before....never occured to me to do that. I love that it gives me a second sink and large prep area plus landing space for ovens! Not to mention it's using my preferred appliance choices. Although I suppose I need a spot for a microwave.

The current distance between the butcher block island the basement door is 42" and I wouldn't go less than that. The kids play in the basement so it gets a lot of traffic. One thought though - the builder floorplans for this house had an option to extend the island toward the breakfast area, like laughable did above, except that it curves away from the basement door. Does that make sense? I'm going to try and hand draw it.

MamaGoose - I'm super impressed with all of your creative ideas! A laundry dump? Super neat idea! It's getting hard to choose between all the great ideas:)

Maybe something like this?

İsland 36", with 1,5" o/h 39". I'm thinking 45" aisle in front of the basement door and 42 on the other side. Meanwhile, I flipped your dining and FR ))

Mw can go to the tall cab next to the basement door or b/w fridge and the range.

Whoa! That is super different and I'm going to chew on that!

I'm sitting at my butcher block island and referring to everyone's drawings and trying to get a feel:)

Sena - I think the fridge is too far from landing space. Even with the drop-down counter. It would have to be carried to the prep sink counter but dishes to serve will be in a whole different spot near the dishwasher. A lot of kitchen use for us involves pulling stuff out of fridge to prep to eat without cooking (like making sandwiches or reheating leftovers). What do you think?

Sena - your first drawings are pretty similar to my current layout, which got me thinking...what if I just change the things that annoy me (dishwasher location, garage door location, small pantry, layout that invites people to stand in work areas)? Would this work? And the dining room would be some form of pantry/laundry that you and MamaG have drawn:

The other thing would be get rid of the pony wall so that the countertop could extend a few inches behind the sink. Maybe even the eating part of the island could be slightly curved? Don't know if that typically seats more or less people. Not sure about that wall to the right of the sink - may replace that with a post to bring more light into the kitchen proper.

Appliances in my drawing:

• Kohler Stages 45 sink
• 30 in. slide in range with single oven
• 36 in. french door fridge
• Wall oven/microwave stack

Here's another I drew, but I'm not really happy with the sink/dishwasher placement. The mess faces the Morning Room if we're entertaining.

That's supposed to say "Prep Sink" next to the Cooking area (range).

I still had your plan on my desktop, so I drew your last two ideas, so that you can see how they relate on a grid where 1 square = 6". There is no space for the long narrow counter in the first plan, so I left it off. The second plan is represented by the red lines and boxes. I like the first plan, but the second seems very awkward to me. I wouldn't advise putting a wall oven in the void beside the HVAC--there is no adjacent landing space, and the island landing is across a busy traffic aisle.

NKBA recommendations--oven landing, Rule #23

Is it close enough to Christmas to still enjoy stockings? How about a Christmas stocking island? LOL I marked the actual cabinets with green lines. a custom shop could work in triangular shelves on the backside of the peninsula where there is a gap between cabinets. I'm not convinced you get more storage than your current kitchen, but it does give you a connected counter which might(?) feel more useful. I'm sure a countertop designer could draw a much more graceful "heel" and "toe" than I did.

MamaG - Thanks for drawing those up! Can I ask why there isn't room for the long narrow island in this plan? This one is my current layout with the two islands connected so I thought it might work. I do see your point about the oven near HVAC.

Laughable, I was just getting on to post a drawing I just finished that is very similar! In mine, I'm using MamaG's design that puts the double ovens into the Morning Room. Sink in corner maybe? And this could double as landing space for ovens, more prep space?

Your drawing and mine address a concern I have that the "breakfast" area will feel empty in designs with the galley island. Question could this plan work with either:

That island elongated

Or maybe making it more narrow so it's just a work island and then having a separate eating/serving island

Could the second island be used for your second clean-up sink and DW? Might work, since that is where you would eat most of the time?

Sena, nice plan, and your drawings are pretty! I'd probably leave out the counter between the breakfast table and the DW--that way the table could be moved if necessary.

auntiedidi, The aisles on both sides would be too narrow, with another run of cabinets added between the peninsula and HVAC/stair door, especially since that is a busy traffic area. The 24" cabinets would need a back panel, and overhangs front and back, so it would be at least 26.5-27" wide:

I'd probably leave out the counter between the breakfast table and the DW

I actually started with a table and then it evolved into laughablemoments' Christmas stocking loll!

Agree with MG, beautiful drawings Sena! Very creative and a lot of very thoughtful details. I do think a dining table works better with this layout and it's nice to see that getting ride of the pony wall behind the sink helps a bit with the narrowness of Morning Room. I actually already have a bench with the farmhouse table:) It lives slid under the table on the side closest to the kitchen unless in use. I also like the efficiency of this layout.

With all of the options that have been discussed and drawn it's become clear that I need to prioritize my wants to help me choose.

I've since found a few pictures with kitchen cabinets extending into rooms with different ceiling heights and I'm surprised I'm OK with the look.

So, any thoughts on my variations above of MG's plan with either an extended or second island? This plan seems to get me the most elements I want with the sacrifice of countertop space. I was inspired by drjay71's kitchen from the Finished Kitchens Blog:http://finishedkitchens.blogspot.com/2010/06/drjay71s-kitchen.html