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michey1st_gw

More Layout Help - combining kitchen & dining room

8 years ago

Hi Gw!!! It seems i pop in every 6 months or so asking for layout help, LOL. Well, the good news is we have scrimped and saved and are at a point where we can afford to redo our kitchen! It's been in the back of my mind since we moved here 3 years ago, and i'm psyched!

To recap from the past few posts (over the years -- I don't expect y'all to remember me, lol):

About us: we are a family of 2 (no kiddos except for furbabies) and we love to cook together, usually 3-4 times per week, leftovers other days. We entertain small groups of people (2-4 guests) about every month, and we also tend to host Holidays for 10-15 people depending on who happens to be in town.

About the house: Our house is a 1960 cookie cutter ranch. 3 bedrooms and 1 bath on the main floor, another bedroom/bathroom in the basement. The house has an addition on the back which we plan to make into our family room (right now, the TV is in the rec room in the basement). Our "formal living room" right off the front door is never used, and we don't really use our tiny "formal dining room" because it is so dark and small. We tend to congregate in the back room, or down in the basement, when people come over.

Goals of remodel:

  1. More prep space, larger sink (stages!!!) and good storage.
  2. Better natural light -- current kitchen is devoid of windows and dining room window is wide but short/high. Would like to take better advantage of its south-facing exposure.
  3. Larger dining area
  4. Add TV watching area to main floor (proposed in the family room).
  5. Maximize the use of our main floor, rather than having 2 rooms we never use....

Here's our existing floor plan of the entire house (ignore the "PR Door?" label in the hallway):

Our plan (as of now) is to convert the formal living room into a new formal dining room. It's light filled, and roomy for the neighborhood. We have consulted with our realtor and for this neighborhood, we are golden as far as consolidating our living and eating spaces this way. I'm amenable to it being a little "different" to walk in to the dining room from the front door, but if down the line buyers have a problem with it, it's easily converted to living space and they can eat in the addition.

So, combining the kitchen and existing formal dining room leaves us with a 10'8 x 19'6 space in the kitchen, kind of like this:

The wall between the kitchen and family room is a former exterior, so it's 12" thick. I've tried to indicate that on the picture (it comes in to play when we start to talk about island length, which is why I thought important to include it on this picture. Right now, we only have a 4 foot doorway between kitchen and family room, ut I plan to open it up as wide as possible, keeping 36" on the left and around 28ish inches on the right as indicated. Also, the doorway on the bottom wall (to the dining room) can move, but needs to be at least 40 inches from the left wall, as otherwise it opens into our hallway. Because of this, I thought it was a good place for a big, deep fridge with a few inches to spare in the back

In a past thread, mamagoose, funkycamper, cpartist and a few others helped me come up with a few different options, but we're still not there yet. My favorite option involved changing the window configuration on the right wall. The problem is we have a brick exterior house, and doing anything other than keeping the window where it is and bringing it down to counter height is mucho expensive according to a contractor i've talked to. It's kind of a bummer, because I had grand dreams of a window on each side of the range like this:

That's a reach in (drywall) pantry in the top left corner, fridge is bottom left. Redoing the windows still isn't completely off the table, but if there's a better way, i'd like to consider all options.

Trying to keep the existing window led me to flipping the range and the sink:

And this one utilizes a peninsula (overhang not shown) rather than an island. Probably TOO MUCH prep space, though?:

Finally, one other idea I was batting around was to encroach on the dining room by 1.5 feet (plus wall thickness) to give me a bigger island and more space around the window to frame it out with cabinetry:

I'm a bit worried that wall and corner will be too "in your face" though when you enter the house, and it shrinks my dining room from 15.5 feet deep to a little more than 13.5". Here's what that looks like (disregard furniture and built ins in family room):

So, lots for me (and you!) to consider. I'm open to fresh and new ideas or tweaks to something i've already shown -- I tend to suffer from overthinking, so really appreciate your honest feedback!

Thanks bunches!!!





Comments (56)

  • 8 years ago

    Thank you, Stan Z! I'm partial to eating up some DR space too (assuming it doesn't kill the view when you first enter the house). This side of the house is so dark and chopped up that i'm really trying to help it flow just a little bit better. You should see what happens at Thanksgiving when there's food and people everywhere in my teeeeeeny tiny kitchen >.<

    Forgot to mention that informal dining table in the family room will disappear and that entire room will be sofa, tv, bookcases, loungy chairs etc etc. Informal dining for just the two of us will likely be at the island, or even just on the couch *smile* I got lazy and didn't mess with furniture placement in that room for my initial post >.<

    Here are some ideas (both involve a new slider out to the deck and adding a fireplace, but I don't think we will be tackling that right away...


    Do you think I run the risk of coming down the hallway towards the kitchen and smacking myself on the jutting out corner? That area is so open right now it's hard for me to visualize what a bump right there would feel like. Guess I need to break out some cardboard and duct tape.....

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I like this plan best but I never advise putting the tv above fireplace. It's too high and a strain on the neck. Is there a way to get the sink out of the aisle? Are you planning a prep sink?

    michey1st_gw thanked smm5525
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    I know you said you did not want to switch rooms; but since you like the look of the sink in the bay (the outside views are awesome), it may be worth exploring. If your DH is like mine, change is hard, but he comes around eventually. Perhaps posting another thread that asks people to weigh in on the two kitchen locations with a mock layout for each might get DH to consider the possibility if he can read what others have to say concerning the positives and negatives of each kitchen location. Many people are remodeling to get a larger kitchen space by eliminating two sit-down eating spaces in their homes. Thus, If you switch the rooms, I do not think you would have to “stage” a formal dining room if the time comes to sell. The larger, well designed kitchen would be a major selling point. Keeping the kitchen in its current location does not gain you a whole lot more space for the kitchen because of the traffic patterns; moving the kitchen to the dining area gains you much more kitchen space. You gain the space for family friendly island seating, and the kitchen does not have to be in a location that “fights” with the traffic patterns of your home. The generous dining space combined with the larger kitchen space would be awesome to entertain in. One negative would be carrying groceries a tad farther but not a whole lot more. ;
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    Sena I absolutely love the pantry idea. Right now our pantries are actually two closets 20&quot; deep (I couldn't show it correctly in the planner) so that aisle is only 38&quot; which is fine most days but when we have people over and they stand around the island it feels very crowded. I actually was planning on doing a beverage/wine fridge under the counter where the coffee bar is. When we are entertaining I thought it'd be nice to have a spot for the kids especially to grab drinks. I'm hoping to get a counter depth fridge because I really don't like how our current one stinks 9 inches into the isle. We are going to purchase a second fridge for the garage to make up for the lost space. I shop often enough that I think we'd be fine with counter depth. Do you think 33&quot; is deep enough of an island to accommodate a sink? I love the idea of the prep sink on that wall... I just wasn't sure I'd have enough cabinets if I kept it and the window.
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  • 8 years ago

    I like your last option from before. Except I'd reduce the dining room only by 1' so it's 14'5". Your fridge is not in a good place with the island there. It's a barrier.

    So I moved the fridge to the left of the sink. I moved your sink so it's centered under the right window which actually is better so now when you're at the sink, you're not looking at the divider but out the actual window. I shortened the kitchen by 1' which also shortened the island in length by 1'.

    By moving the fridge this gives you more pantry storage, or an area to do a wet bar, coffee station, etc. I just put in an additional pantry with a wet bar area in between.

    What I like most about this configuration is your view from your front door is straight back to your backyard door. So as you enter, you have a point to move towards instead of immediately noticing the dining room and kitchen.

    For your dining room, I probably would create two smaller groupings, leaving the path to the backyard free.

    michey1st_gw thanked cpartist
  • 8 years ago

    If two of you will be prepping/cooking together, what do you think about a prep sink and two defined prep spaces - one for each of you?

    michey1st_gw thanked Buehl
  • 8 years ago

    concerned about drop zone/perhaps lack of half bath/closet/cubbies/hooks/coming in from day to day entry.It is a home for a larger family,,,even tho just the two of you now: when resell time comes I think a benefit would be to have such an area. If you are willing to open exterior walls, I would create a side entry with half bath perhaps and such drop zone /small mudroom-whatever name you call this. It would increase the liveability for the number of people this home with 4 bedrooms/2 full baths is designed for. If you lack desire for another entrance area I would move kitchen to front or rear of home, closer to an entrance and dedicate space to such a zone adjacent to kitchen and then the rest of the length of space becomes a great room concept with dining zone part of that, whereby a formal use can be engineered with table extension and décor when needed. So, day to day, a table can be used situated within your living zone , along with island near kitchen. I think a big mistake would be this "formal dining " room that you admit gets downgraded in favor of sitting in family room. You'll get a new kitchen whatever you do, but don't ignore chance to improve how your entire sq footage can be improved.

    michey1st_gw thanked herbflavor
  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    CPArtist, THANK YOU! Here's something quick I did that illustrates your example with cabinetry:

    View of fridge by the window:

    Concerns with this:

    • that back wall seems like it's overly crowded now. Do you think there will be any congestion during food prep for 2 people with this? I kind of like having all the food (pantry and fridge) in one consolidated space on the "other side of the kitchen", but am not ruling this out.
    • Was planning to store dishes in island drawers (which this layout still supports) but glasses now have to be in drawers too as I want them in close proximity to the fridge, which kind of bugs me. I like glasses in a pretty glass upper cabinet (I may be able to get over this to promote better function, lol). Note that cups will be on the pantry wall close to the coffee station, as you suggest =)

    If I do go this route, I will likely consolidate the double pantries into 1 and have a larger coffee station. Definite food for thought! (and thanks for giving me some extra inches in my dining room back!)

    SMM5525 and Buehl, i was toying with a prep sink on the island, but it seems a little bit overkill for this house. Was thinking that going with a Stages sink would allow both of us with enough access to water and adjacent counter space, then if things get crowded, someone can just move to the island after stuff is rinsed. Was thinking trash under the stages, and then a supplemental trash pullout somewhere on the island (I haven't given much thought to exact cabinets for island, so your suggestions are totally welcome!)

    With the stove on the bottom wall like it is, I really don't think I have room to rotate the island to make the long working surface parallel to the stove. If I could do that, then I think a prep sink on the island would make more sense, but as is, i was having trouble figuring out how to put a prep sink on the "short" side of the island and have it still be useful. Love to hear your thoughts!

    Herbflavor, very insightful! I've gone back and forth with this and even toyed with ways to add a powder room (in a previous thread). The short answer is, the house is what it is, and the best room in the house is the back addition (it has views to a protected forest) so keeping the kitchen where it is and opening it to that addition makes the most sense for us. A different project (not for right now) is to figure out how to get a modest master bath, plus the basement entry is already a walk out to a patio that connects to the driveway, and enters the house into a laundry/mudroom with 3/4 bath and kitchenette. So, I already have bits and pieces of what you're suggesting, just not on the right floor, lol. We just don't really use that entrance on a regular basis, but down the line, a family with kiddos can.

    I should also mention that the driveway is on the bedroom side of the house (weird, right?), so trying to add another entry to this floor into the kitchen will involve more than just opening up the house. We've considered it, but it doesn't really gain us much.

    Appreciate everyone's help! Keep it coming =D

  • 8 years ago

    It's always hard to disagree with one of the most esteemed contributors here but I do not like putting the fridge on the exterior wall by the window. The fridge, dishwasher, and sink are too cramped. It is a personal preference I think but I share your concern. I don't mind a french door fridge opening into the corridor in front of the range as depicted on your plans. I might feel differently if there were 6 kids in the house.

    michey1st_gw thanked Stan B
  • 8 years ago

    I'm with Stan on the fridge. I'm keeping mine separated by the "barrier" island with no prep sink and the 45" stages. If You are doing a French door and since u have no kids, and the everyday meals won't be in the dining room, the fridge in aisle isn't a big deal. Seems like there is still space to go around.


    michey1st_gw thanked smm5525
  • 8 years ago

    Thank you both! I'm hoping to try and get a 4 foot or larger doorway from the new dining room into the kitchen, and yes, French Door all the way!

    So, here is where we are so far (click pictures for larger versions, I think):

    Version 1 - Keeps front dining room at 15.5 feet long. Upper cabinets should be 15" deep (that's why they are pulled out from the wall a smidge) and i'd like a consistent reveal around the window, so the glass cabinet in the top right will be sized to get that reveal. Garbage would be under half of the sink and Island totally needs work as far as what to put where (stools, more gargabe, drawers, etc) and whether or not to include a prep sink. With this, I believe i'm at 48" aisles or thereabouts on range and sink side, 50-something inches in pantry aisle.

    Version 2 - steals 1.5 feet from dining room to make it 13.5' long. I don't want to steal any more but of course, I can steal a little less. Same concern regarding reveal around window. With the extra 18 inches, I can sneak in a garbage pullout (or drawers if I keep garbage under the Stages) to the right of the sink. Island can be a bit bigger, but again, not sure what to put where...


  • 8 years ago

    Can u show each of the sink views in 3 d so I can see what you mean re reveal

  • 8 years ago

    You got it, smm5525! I may not be calling it the right thing, but basically, i'd like the cabinets to be equal distance from the window on each side.

    Here's a shot of the layout that does not encroach on the dining room (playing around with taking the cabinets to the counter on the left-- not sure i'll be going that route):

    And here's a shot of the layout that goes in to the DR by 18":

    Does this help?

  • 8 years ago

    If you decide to keep the refrigerator on the lower left, they you will need to do one of two things:

    • Put a 9" to 12" tall cabinet b/w the wall and the refrigerator
      -or-
    • Open up the wall further so the refrigerator doors stick out into the doorway - don't reduce the doorway, expand it.

    Why?

    Because as it is now, you will not be able to open the door(s) of the refrigerator fully - the wall will be in the way.


  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    What about keeping the fridge where I have it and moving the sink and dw to the island?

    (I do agree where I moved it with the stages sink, it is a bit tight.)

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I think you should have 2 openings from the new kitchen to the relocated dining room in the front of the house. I think it will help circulation and add light and give you a view out the front windows. The new dining room location feels like a no mans land and without the visual connection it won't be much used or will feel very disconnected from the rest of the house. Any of the configurations you have for the kitchen layout will work with adding a second cased opening.

  • 8 years ago

    Re: sink, I would probably want as much space as possible with no overhead cabinets squeezing me in. But I'm not a fan of wall cabinets, except for the hutch style u have in the first option. I also like the reveal around window better in that one.

  • 8 years ago

    Such great ideas from everyone, thank you!

    Buehl, I was thinking of maybe doing 3-4 inches of filler (possibly a broom pull out?) against the wall next to the fridge. The fridge and fridge cabinetry will be pulled forward so there is likely only around a 4 inch stub of wall between the cabinetry and the door. Yes, I will waste a few inches of space in the back, but it's a necessary evil in this case. Is that enough of a gap, you think?

    CPArtist, What I REALLY like about this idea is I can then do prep directly on the island "facing the action", which is very enticing and something i've been wrestling with ever since reading about Scrappy's reveal and how she uses her stages. Plus, I can also hide a paper towel roll cubby in the cabinets next to the sink and it won't be in plain view of everyone that walks into the kitchen.

    What gives me pause is it's a bit of a distance to put dishes away, assuming I store them in the cabinets under the window. We tend to clean up stuff together, and if one person is at the sink, they are in the way of whomever is emptying the dishwasher at the time. Plus, I still imagine congestion in the fridge/sink area. Swapping the DW and 18" drawers solves a lot of these issues... do you think that's an ok idea?

    Kirkarch, this is another thing i've been wrestling with. I do not like the fact I've killed the view and the light from the front room. I do want to keep distinct spaces (ie, I don't want to open everything up for the whole world to see by going the route of no walls and one big island), however that solid wall bugs me. When I had the sink where the stove is, I was toying with having some sort of passthrough in lieu of upper cabinets, but with the stove there, i'm having a hard time figuring out some sort of opening. Do you think a passthrough of sorts would accomplish what you're thinking about? I agree it is a bit of a maze to get food from the kitchen into the dining room, but I don't want to kill my counter space with another doorway =/

    smm525, agree with you! I like giving the window that extra breathing room.

  • 8 years ago

    The problem with this is that you really don't have any good prep space on the island. You will want to prep between sink and stove, and you only have 18" - this really isn't enough to be useful! Swapping the DW would be even worse because then your DW is in your main prep zone. I'd keep the sink on the window wall. If you really want to prep on the island you could potentially put a smaller prep sink on it for this purpose.

    I'm not a huge fan of pass throughs so I'd probably just keep the opening as is to the DR. I also like having separate rooms though so I may be biased!

  • 8 years ago

    The problem with this is that you really don't have any good prep space on the island. You will want to prep between sink and stove, and you only have 18" - this really isn't enough to be useful!

    The Kohler Stages 45 is a prep sink/prep area in one. That is the beauty of the Stages sink. So her prep space is actually much wider than the 18". More like 35"-40".

    What gives me pause is it's a bit of a distance to put dishes away, assuming I store them in the cabinets under the window. We tend to clean up stuff together, and if one person is at the sink, they are in the way of whomever is emptying the dishwasher at the time. Plus, I still imagine congestion in the fridge/sink area. Swapping the DW and 18" drawers solves a lot of these issues... do you think that's an ok idea?

    Is your helper really putting dishes away when you prep and prepare dinner? DH is always helping me with cleaning up when I'm prepping but he's not putting dishes away at that time. That is normally done before we start preparing dinner so we have an empty dishwasher to load.

    If he's helping you to load the dishwasher and clean up, then it's fine as it is. I would not switch it because then it's in your work zone as lharpie said.

    As for avoiding congestion, with two of you working together the solution is to have the regular sink and a prep sink, but that sort of defeats the purpose of having the Stages sink.

    michey1st_gw thanked cpartist
  • 8 years ago

    You could also swap the location of the fridge and the range (fridge against dining room wall and range to the left of the window). You would need a slightly wider aisle between the fridge and the island. You'd want minimum 42" aisle width, 48" desired in front of the fridge. This would let you pull items out of the fridge, set them next to the sink, and then pivot to the range after prep. It would also leave you plenty of counter space below the window and to the right for secondary prep and appliances like a coffee machine.

    michey1st_gw thanked Stan B
  • 8 years ago

    I think having the fridge in front of the sink would make it hard for 2 people to prep together, and make things especially difficult with family gatherings you mentioned. What if you move the fridge to the bumped-out dining room wall, recess it, bring the cabinets up next to it (as much as you can without interfering with doors) and scoot the cooktop over a bit?

    michey1st_gw thanked amylachney
  • 8 years ago

  • 8 years ago

    So, I like Stan Z's idea of switching the two and also amy's idea of recessing the fridge into the dining room wall. In this case if DH or anyone else tends to help you prep, I would add a small prep sink in front of the window which would allow two to prep at the same time. Otherwise, the space would work as a nice baking area, etc.

    Btw: In a small kitchen as yours I don't see a problem walking around the area to get to the dining room, especially since it's not a space you're intending to use on a daily basis.

    michey1st_gw thanked cpartist
  • 8 years ago

    Amy the problem with moving the fridge and the stove to that one wall is there is no space between fridge and stove for prepping and all that back wall of cabinetry and counter becomes a catch all.

    michey1st_gw thanked cpartist
  • 8 years ago

    Thanks for the assist on graphics cpartist! I like it! There's still plenty of space to put in a second sink if two prep zones are desired (under the window). Alternatively a small sink could be put between the two pantries to make that into a coffee/bar area. Would be a great place to get drinks since it is on the main path through the house yet not in the kitchen workflow. As I wrote earlier this really is a great space to work with which everyone isn't always fortunate to have with a remodel.

    michey1st_gw thanked Stan B
  • 8 years ago

    Agree 100% with you Stan Z and happy to help out.

    michey1st_gw thanked cpartist
  • 8 years ago

    Ah- I didn't realize the stages bought you that much prep space! I like it much more now! I'd still rather not have clean up on an island (as you have room not too) so might skip the stages and consider 2 smaller sinks, but this definitely seems like a good option. I have not seen the stages in person though so probably don't know what I am missing!

    michey1st_gw thanked lharpie
  • 8 years ago

    Another thing to consider if the kitchen counter is your main eating area (aside from couch), do you want clean up sink there? Visually, I hate looking at a mess while eating. Practically, I like all my food out in front for serving and seconds. I'd rather walk around a few steps from fridge to sink than have clean up sink in my eating space.

    michey1st_gw thanked smm5525
  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I don't think a pass through would achieve the open/ continuous updated look. Try a plan layout with opening up a 30" wide cased opening near the outside wall. The benefit of doing this is that you will remove that corner cabinet which is always a challenging for storage. I'm not sure what your scale is of the plans you have been posting, but it looks like you could fit a 30" range with at least 15" of counter top on each side between each cased opening into the kitchen.

    michey1st_gw thanked Kirkarch
  • 8 years ago

    Who knew this fridge would be so frought with controversy, LOLOL! So, here's the thing about moving the stove to the wall with the window. I only have 4 feet from corner to window. Right now, I have 18 inches on one side of my stove, and I honestly wouldn't want to go any less. That means the stove has to butt up right against the window, which means the hood is going to look lopsided/off balance (I'm a wee bit OCD about symmetry around things like windows and hoods =( Making the window smaller to compensate will add to the budget (though not as bad as adding a new window, I reckon), but defeats the purpose of maximizing natural light.

    I'd like to try, if at all possible, to keep the fridge on one of the two short dimension walls (right or left) since the room is so long and comparatively narrow. I don't want it sticking out into the middle of the room by placing it on the long dimension (thereby shrinking the island to get the right clearances), and I'd like to avoid counter depth fridges if possible. So, top contenders as I see them are next to the window boxed in all pretty-like, or somewhere along the pantry wall.

    The way DH and I work is that we don't empty the dishwasher until it's time to start cooking again, or until we start cleanup. 9 times out of 10, the dishwasher is full and needs to be emptied, lol (yes, it needs emptying as I type this). So, it is very very likely that someone will be doing something at the sink (either prep or cleanup) when it's time to empty the dishwasher. We are not OCD about cleanup, so chances are very likely there will be something in the sink that needs washing when it comes time to work in the kitchen again, which means the dw needs to be emptied before it can be loaded in.

    At cooking time, we tend to have one person doing the main veggie prep (which takes the longest), and the the other person runs interference (ie odd jobs like fetching things, unpackaging meat, measuring, babysitting things on the stove, etc etc. We try to grab everything from the fridge at once but there may be a few straggler items here or there we have to go back to, but not a ton. If I kept the sink under the window (not cuz I want it to be under the window, but because it's the best place for it that I can see), it's about 13 feet to the fridge on the pantry wall. Is that "long" trek the main issue with keeping the fridge on the pantry wall somewhere? Any other drawbacks?

    I feel so bad because I keep shooting down your ideas as to why something won't work and you guys are still going strong. Please don't think i'm trying to discourage you...

    And Stan Z, thanks so much for complementing the space! I had a bit of a happy dance eureka moment when I stumbled upon the idea of combining the existing kitchen and dining room into one large space. Whereas before I was working with a space that was roughly 9 x 10, it felt positively palatial to me (and still does) =D

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    What about puting a pantry cabinet to the left of Fridge so it opens directly in a line with your prep aisle. Flank it with a matching one on the other side and then have a beverage station / second sink on the rest of the wall towards the family room or just make it a whole wall of storage. Personally would NOT put a short counter there in the middle as shown - it will just collect clutter and your island is close enough to be a landing zone.


    for dishes, if sink is under window what about DW to left with a to the counter dish cabinet against the family room wall.

  • 8 years ago

    So are you married to the idea of getting the Stages 45? Maybe you should look at the Stages 33 and a prep sink.

  • 8 years ago

    MelEdwards, if she puts the fridge on the back wall like that, the island becomes a barrier between the fridge and the sink.

  • 8 years ago

    I'm with CP on this one! 13 ft is rather a long ways away (maybe I'm lazy??). I get annoyed when I have to take a bunch of things in and out of the fridge and mine is probably less than half that distance! It also involves crossing your cook zone so there will be a little more congestion there. It would just be nice to keep the fridge close and separate given there is an easy way to do this by keeping it on the right side wall!

  • 8 years ago

    I'm totally amenable to a non-stages clean-up sink (but still want it to be a large single bowl) for under the window, and then a prep sink in the island for sure. If I did that, how would you set up the island, cpartist?

    The short run of counter (42 inches) is where I was planning on setting up a coffee/breakfast station, plus i'm considering a speed oven in the counter below. Right now, our coffee station (coffee pot & toaster) is in the family room on a kitchen cart, and i'd like it to return back to the kitchen. We would grab filtered water from the fridge for the coffee pot, and have cups, mugs and glasses in the cabinets above the counter, plus breads in drawers below. As planned, I have that set up as a 24" cabinet for speed oven with 1 drawer below, and then 15 inch drawers next to it for breads, coffee, tea, breakfasty accessories, etc.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Here's a quick and dirty -- is this sort of what you were thinking, CP? I put in a 24" sink base with garbage pullout adjacent. I like that the fridge is close to the FR for quick drink fetching. I aIso like that DW can be emptied right into drawers in the island. How wide does the aisle have to be if DW and drawers are across from each other, you think to still be functional?

    Ignore the pantry wall for now... wanna get the island and perimeter right before tackling the whole pantry issue =)

  • 8 years ago

    I see the point about having the fridge to far from the sink, but now it seems really crowded to me and your breakfast bar will be really far from the fridge that probably has stuff you need.


    what about putting fridge back on pantry wall and turning your island so the seating backs to the family room, and adding a prep sink on the island across from the range.

    not sure if that will work with your measurements or not.

  • 8 years ago

    I agree, MelEdwards! I don't know why, but something about fridge and pantries on that left wall just feels right to me.

    I'm starting to think this kitchen is too small for 2 sinks, but too big for 1 sink, lol. If I rotate the island and keep a 42" aisle on the sink side, I think I can squeeze in a 5 foot wide island (5 feet facing the stove, I mean). Not sure where's the best place to situate the sink, though. Right on the corner closest to the fridge? in the middle? How big a sink? Where do I put the garbage? I'm so not used to dealing with prep sinks, lol!

    Here is a 24" sink cabinet with an 18" cabinet on each side (1 for garbage, 1 for I dunno what). Doesn't seem like much room to do much of anything in only 18 inches of space. I guess it's better in the corner?

    With this layout, There's still a good amount of room to do another set of cabinets behind (i show 36 but should probably go a bit smaller) before I get to seating. So, that's a 5 x 5 island not including the overhang, which will take it to 5 x 6.5. Whaddya think?

  • PRO
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Not sure if these are the right measurements of the kitchen and if I am uploading this correctly, but this is what I had in mind with the second entrance into the kitchen to allow more light to get in and improve the flow. With the location of the fridge you would need to add a prep sink to get that triangle to work out and the main sink functions as the primary clean up area.


  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    With your big cleanup sink so close I don't think you need a huge prep sink - just be sure it's big enough to be useful (to me a good measure is if it cab fit a colander). I would put prep sink on corner in a 24" cab. It can then be used by the outside aisle as well. Then a cab in the middle with the trash in a pull out cab that pulls out toward your main sink. Trash can then be shared, and if you are prepping you could sweep trash right off the counter into the sink. In a righty so a run of sink / counter / trash would be awesome.

    if I remember you said French Door fridge, correct? If so I would line it up with your stove aisle.

  • 8 years ago

    Oooohhh. I really like Kirkarch's plan. Nice separation of zones, easy access to cleanup zone from either casual or more formal dining.

  • 8 years ago

    Doggonit, just when I think i'm getting close, Kirkarch makes me rethink EVERYTHING! -_-

    I love this, like, really a lot! There's just one tiny problem. Allow me to give you a glimpse into my cluttered and needs-to-be-tidied home. (no judjements, mmkay?!?)

    Here's a view from inside my front door. That arch is where I'm proposing to put up the wall, fyi.

    The green tape on the wall on left side of pic (i's crooked but close enough), is the 40 inch mark I've been speaking of in previous posts. Doorway shouldn't impinge past that mark, or else it ends up in the hallway.

    Here's a sort of what it looks like with 1 48 inch-ish doorway and solid wall. You'll just have to imagine it juts into the front room by about a foot.

    That wall is perfect for a china hutch or whatever, as it will line up nicely with a dining room table. Plus the wider door will give you expansive views through to the back of the house.

    Now, if I go to 2 doors:

    The wall is more centered in the overall space, rather than off to the side and centered with the dining room. I still haven't decided whether this is really a problem or not mind you, but it makes a clearly defined dining room a bit more of a challenge.

    What I really like about your plan, though, is I don't have to expand into the front room at all, so no lame-o bump out. Plus, the extra openness with the second door to let more light in. I'd be sad to lose my super susan, though, but the extra base cabinet makes up for it.

    What a delimna! What do you guys think? (remember, no judgements ;-)

  • 8 years ago

    Here are some floorplan snippets, to help illustrate my first world problem...

    1 door:

    2 door:

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I do like both, but here's my concern with the 2 door plan. Your guests will be walking in the front door and will be greeted by a dining room. They'll look around and wonder where to go since there are several openings of the same size. The sight angle from the front door through the right passageway shows the sink and trash pullout and maybe a kitchen counter that's working hard so maybe a little cluttered.

    Since it is a little unorthodox to not have a sitting area right when you walk into the house I think you need a way to beckon guests through the kitchen and into your back living/family room. One way to do that would be a wide hallway straight ahead as you walk through the front door as you have in the 1 door concept.

    I do like Kirkarch's plan very much because it gets rid of the corner cabinet and lets you put the dishwasher, sink, and trash all in a row under the window but I think the above factor would lead me back to the 1 door concept for your house. Others may have a different opinion though.

  • 8 years ago

    I think you have given yourself a false choice. If you prefer the single wider opening just close the L in Kirkarch's plan and shorten the range wall and island by a foot.

  • 8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Yes, I do agree the two plans might be able to be merged together with the 1 door + corner base cabinet and the island rotated 90 degrees. The devil is in the details so would need to measure and see how it fits. Ideally I'd want to be able to look through the kitchen and into the living/family room without seeing any obstruction from the island or counter stools.

  • 8 years ago

    I don't think 2 doors really makes it feel more open and you aren't leaving yourself enough room on either side of the stove (at least for what I would want!). The rest kind of depends on whether you have a 5' or a 6.5' island - the prep sink seems like it works better in the larger island, and definitely better in the corner as you want to have a good 36" by it to prep on.

  • 8 years ago

    The double opening is nice, but I would prefer one opening with more counter space around the range and the traffic directed outside the work area.

  • 8 years ago

    Not a fan of double opening. You lose counter space. Symmetry doesn't apply to room openings.

  • 8 years ago

    Kirkarch, I REALLY appreciate the time you took for that layout but I agree with what others have said. The comment that really struck home was what Stan said about creating confusion when you first walk in with 2 doors and not knowing where to go. I love the aesthetic of the 2 doors from the kitchen side, but from the front of the house, I don't think it will work =(

    As it turns out, a 48" single door really kills the 6'+ island, unless it encroaches on the plane of the door. With 42" aisles I can do a max of 5', by my calculations.

    So, back to NOT bumping out the wall into the front room with this one. The only thing I really gain with a wall bump out is a slightly deeper island and the possibility of an easy reach cabinet with breathing room around the window molding next to the sink.

    With this layout, i'm giving up my even reveal around the window, but from the 3d plan, it actually doesn't bug me so much since the cabinets are on different planes. Hooray! Michey 1, OCD 0!

    So, island is 5' across with an as yet undetermined depth. I've also temporarily nixed the stages and went down to a 33" sink base. Hopefully there's a 30" sink out there with my name on it, lol.

    Some questions:

    • 42" aisles on sink and stove side. Acceptable?

    • Island is 5' wide, unless I expand more towards the fridge wall, but then it will not line up with the edge of the stove wall cabinets. Should I keep them lined up or try to go bigger? right now I have 5'4 between cabinets on the fridge wall (they are pulled forward as shown) and the island edge and that's the main path to family room nirvana.

    • I put the trash opening towards the DW. With a 42" aisle, think that's problematic? I will be able to sweep things to the side as MelEdwards suggested this way, which gives me more standing room opposite the stove.

    • Now there's a janky 12" cabinet in the island. Cutting board storage, I guess? Trying to figure out where knives and such should go. Drawer above the trash? the 9" on the stove wall can be for cookie sheets, I guess. As you can tell, I haven't full mapped out my "what should go where" yet.

    • I shrank the pantry to try and get the fridge closer to line up with the aisle, though it's still not perfect. I'm worried the pantry is becoming to narrow and deep to be useful. Was planning shallow shelves on 3 walls and deeper shelves towards the bottom on the back wall for big stuff. For a reach in pantry, how small is too small?

    Thank you thank you, everyone!

  • 8 years ago

    I think the fridge on the left wall is causing problems. I'd put the clean up sink there.

    (Also, I actually prefer two openings in the dining room)

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