I'll be looking forward to pictures of these! Since my DA's are all pretty vigorous growers on plain old Dr. Huey I can't imagine them on Fort., lol.

I'm looking forward to photos too. :) Anyone know if I'm breaking laws if I graft Austin roses under patent (or others under patent) I have currently, and bought legally, onto Fortuniana stock for my own personal yard?

I'm thinking it's not allowed no matter what when under patent... but it gets a little confusing. I'm going to try grafting this spring. :)

Got it! Thanks Ken!

Cori Ann, I HATE to open this can of worms again, and I don't want to come off as mean, hurtful or officious. But....it's illegal to asexually propagate any plant still under patent, unless you have been licensed by the patent holder (in this case, DA) and are prepared to pay the royalty. It seems piddling when you're talking about one or two roses, but think about 1000 people all propagating "just one rose" each; the creator of the rose has lost out on the sale of those 1000 roses, and 1000 royalty payments are lost. As a song writer who collects royalties, I know of what I speak. Yes, I'm flattered that someone might like my songs enough to copy them and pass them along, but I get NOTHING when they do, unless they've downloaded from a site that DOES pay royalties. If the next person in line then copies THEIR copy to pass along, now I've lost out on two royalty payments. Yes, it's pennies per copy, but it's my intellectual property: I put effort into it to create, demo, and push the song to my publisher and/or performers, and royalties are how I'm paid.

Where gardeners are concerned, so many people think it's "fair use" to propagate patented plants once they've bought the first one. Yes, some plants tend to propagate themselves...you can't keep an iris from making more identical iris. Daylilies will spread. Some things you can't KEEP from spreading beyond where you want them. Have at it: move 'em, divide 'em.

But grafting, budding, and taking cuttings is a purposeful decision made by the gardener to multiply a rose. There's almost no chance that DA or any plant breeder will come after you (unless you start selling his roses, that is), but it's an ethical matter. There's a reason those tags say "Asexual Propagation Prohibited". It doesn't say "except when..." or "but...".

Yes, DA has more money than he can burn in a bonfire. Yes, he charges outrageous prices. Yes, some of his US stock is infected with rose mosaic. Yes, he has a gazillion different varieties floating around. But still, he put the effort into breeding the rose, then spent time to test it; spent the money and time to build stock (over years); spends more money to print that gorgeous catalog; he pays an army of people who work in his greenhouse, fields and office; and he has years of experience and knowledge that are priceless. ALL of that is paid for through royalties that are due on every.single.rose.

With all that said, DA does not have an army of elves reporting every single gardener's indiscretions, lol.

(bearer of bad news) John

I have Pat Austin, Christopher Marlowe and Tradescant on Fort. They were just planted this year, so are not full size yet. I may get The Prince on Ken's say so, I have one one Dr Huey is puny, and I have to replace my Abraham Darby, which was a one cane wonder after being moved and that one cane broke off in a wind storm :(. I also have my eye on Jude the Obscure. I get my fort plants from K&M.

Ken, I'm intrigued by how you say your Prince performs on fort rootstock. Do you have any photos you could share of your rose? My Prince is a lovely shrub that blooms sparsely and it's grafted on multiflora. I've had my Prince for years, so it's not going to change--in fact, it's probably going to be shovel pruned this spring. I'd love to try fort, but the winters may be too cold here. Maybe special winter protection could solve that problem.

John, I am totally sympathetic to your problems concerning royalties. I have the same problem with my designs. I'm long retired and try not to think about the enormous secondary market profiting from my work while I collect nothing for designs still under copyright. Diane

Diane---I don't have any pictures of my two bush's of The Prince that I grew in FL. All I can do is tell you is they were large, full bush (5x4) that could give me at least 6 roses per bush ANY time I needed. I have two that I got just a few weeks ago, so I'll be able to start showing everyone how well it does on fortuniana. As far as fortuniana surviving cold winters, I'm trying something this winter. I have a good size bush of Fortuniana in a 3 gal pot. I put it in a wide open, north facing location on my property. No cover at all. I have already had several days of low 20's with a good, steady north wind blowing. I know the pot has froze solid a couple of times. It still looks good. I'll know for sure come spring. As far as my bush's in my garden go, I just pile all the leaf's from the trees on the bush's for the winter. Even when we had our hard winters a couple of years ago, I didn't loose a single rose on fortuniana. I did loose several that were on Dr. Huey. A little bit of winter protection works very well.

Thanks, Ken. I'll look forward to seeing how your experiment works out with the potted rose on fortuniana. It sounds like some leaf winter protection works well for you, and I already use that method for some of my more tender roses and have good results. We're having an awful late fall, as usual. It's getting down to 4F tonight. Some zone 7 we have. Diane

John thank you... that completely clears it up and it is actually not really bad news. It's helpful to just know that if it's under patent, it's a no-go. It takes the confusion out of it. I totally agree with the ethics behind the matter, so even though the grafting police probably won't visit, I still wouldn't want to infringe. I have lots of other roses I can experiment with. ;)

Cori Ann and John(fig_insanity

It is not "actually" illegal to propagate roses for your own use from patented roses. It is rather "frowned" upon from the seller of the plant, the nursery that has the licence to sell and also the breeder as the work he has put into the rose, he just wants some of this back. I only mention this after talking face to face with David Austin and his staff 18mths ago.

Hmmm. Great info David! Thank you!

Sharon, thanks for that share. I'm wanting to try some fort root stock in my 8b zone garden.

David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a and Cori Ann - Norcal east bay (inland valley) zone 9b(9b sunset 14) in the US it is called "Patent Infringement" and you can be sued by the patent holder.

Hi diane_nj 6b/7a, yes I am aware of all those infringements, I am sure the licencees would not come looking for the amount that Cori Ann would like to do, yes if she wanted to notify the licencee, he would chase/hound her, It would not be cost affective to do so and take court action.. As I mentioned I had spoken to Mr Austin himself and his licencing officer. They frown upon it but it is not worth the effort to chase induviduals. Here in Australia, I have spoken to DA's licenced reseller, which is Treloar Roses, the managing director which is Gary Matuscaka also said the same about it happening here in Austalia.

I got my first DA rose on fortune Ana from cool roses. It was Evelyn and it's now huge and about 10 feet by 6 feet. Although it's somewhat gangly in growth it's my favorite rose. Pat Austin is another one that I got from them and mine is gorgeous. I grow it as a climber. I just got two Abe Darby on fort, but those are from Nelsons. The only DAs they graft are Abe and Tamora.

I got all my other DAs from K&m. They are very expensive so what I do is test them out first on Dr. H and if they thrive then I get them on fortuniana if available.

David_ in NSW Australia z8b/9a to me it is no different if it is a patent held by David Austin Roses or a small hybridizer. I would not steal or plagiarize an author's work, I feel the same about plant hybridizers who take the time to patent their work.

It's ok Diane, I was just explaing to Cori Ann what I was told. Plant Patents are relatively new. Yes the breeders frown upon it but it does get done. I guess I should not propagate 'Peace' or any other old rose.

Fair Bianca would be nice to find on Fort rootstock.

Belle Story on Fort would be beautiful!

SoFl, if there is a DA that you like you but can't find it on Fort, Geoff at Cool Roses would probably try and do a graft for you. He has the licensing to do it. If I were you I would give him a try. The ones I want are ALL of THEM :)

LOL me too Sharon! I want them all