The area marked ovens are those double ovens?

Right now I only have a GE Cafe french door oven planned for that space. I was going to install an Advantium oven there as well. But after reading so many negative remarks about the Cafe (120v) version, I decided to go with a Miele speed oven instead.

What is the model # of the speed oven? I'm concerned about it being mounted under the counter at all. Most ovens mounted under the counter are too low to the floor - please see one installed b/f committing to it!

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Smm5525 is right, there is a lot of wasted (and expensive) counterspace where you don't need it (wasted b/c of the lack of water). And, very little counterspace where you need it most - on the non-DW side of the sink. Water is a key component of the Prep Zone, and there is none anywhere except on the small island.

If you do nothing else, at least move the DW to the other side of the sink - but don't reduce the spacing.

Oh, and increase your seating overhang to 15" of clear leg/knee space - that's the minimum recommended for counter-height seating.

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These may help....

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638304/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3638376/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

Thanks for the advice. However, I'm confused by your suggestion since the counter space on both sides of the sink are practically equal. The trash is located on one side of the sink and I'm not sure what it would accomplish to switch the trash and the dishwasher.

The island is actually quite large and the overhang is more than sufficient as I had trouble reaching the cabinets underneath when we visited the spec home. The overhang is substantially larger than the one in our current home, which measures 14 inches deep. Looking at the floor plan, I suspect the broken line indicating where the cabinets end may be misplaced though. There's also a peninsula with an overhang between the kitchen and dining room but it's only there for serving purposes. We don't plan to use any stools in the dining room.

The speed oven I'm considering is Miele model H6100BM.

Thanks again for your expertise.

SMM5525, Miele does offer a trim kit but I'd prefer to use the extra 6 inches for a drawer rather than wasting money on a trim kit to cover dead space.

It is a range top rather than a range and I'm planning drawers for cookware underneath. I still have time to move the range top and/or the oven. Where do you think they should be?

It's not wasted space if it's stacked above the other oven. I would probabaly put fridge where wine fridge is, sink where double ovens are and the cooktop more to the rt on that back wall with a beautiful hood and backsplash as the focal point since that is open to the great room. Stacked ovens where fridge is.

We'd have to close off the dining room from the kitchen in order to put the refrigerator where the wine frig is supposed to be, although we probably won't be putting a wine frig there as I'd rather have the extra cabinet space instead.

Moving the range top to the right is definitely doable as it was there before hubby decided to move it so it wouldn't be directly across from the dishwasher.

After reading the links bruel provided I think I understand about the prep space issue now. I'm concerned about putting the dishwasher across from the refrigerator though, especially since the 36" refrigerator will have a single rather than a French door. I'm wondering if it would serve the same purpose to move the dishwasher and sink to the right, allowing for more counter space on the trash/prep side of the island? Or would I be crossing zones? I suppose I could switch the refrigerator and ovens but then I'm worried the refrigerator would be more difficult to access. Sigh. This is more complicated than I thought it would be.

Oh I didn't realize that was open to dining room. Can u post whole floorplan?

Here it is. Sorry about the quality. Is there any way to attach a pdf to a post?

Here's a plan that moves the fridge to the other wall, and makes the
cooktop and hood the focal point from the great room. (Assuming the
fridge door swing can be changed.) Dishes can be kept in drawers and
upper cabinets across from the DW, separating the cooking and cleanup
zones. If the fridge is standard depth, you could check into recessing
it into the wall to give you a few more inches in the aisle, but I moved
the island out a few inches. If you have multiple cooks and helpers in
the household, you could include a small sink on the peninsula, for a
secondary prep space. A cutting board can be made to fit the prep sink
opening, to return it to counter space when needed. The disadvantage to
this layout is that the fridge is not as close to the pantry.

Are
you open to moving the cooktop to the other wall? That would give you a
nice long open counter, including the peninsula, and would make moving
hot serving dishes easier. The view from the great room wouldn't be as
nice, and dish storage wouldn't be as convenient, though.

Even if you stack ovens you can still mix brands so long as overall style is same. I thought of doing that as well but since the single oven would be on the bottom, i didn't think the advantage of the French or side door was as much as if it is above counter height. I ended up with Wolf steam oven and Wolf single wall oven.

I like Mamagooses first plan with ovens stacked. I would want my smaller speed oven that's used more often above counter height.

Hi ssm5525, Even if I stacked the ovens I wouldn't put the speed oven on top anyway because it opens from the top and the French door oven needs to be at counter height.

Thanks for the new layout, mama goose! Ugh. Now I have to figure out how to tell hubby I want to change the floor plan again.

You're spec'ing DOs, a speed oven and a wine fridge so I'm assuming that you like to entertain. However, your DR appears small compared to your kitchen, office and MBR, especially so because it's the only dining area in your home. How large is it? Is it large enough to accommodate a table extended to seat 10 people? More? Less?

For reference, a space that is 11' x 15.5' can accommodate a 42" x 96" table - large enough for 10 people - with adequate aisles for people to walk behind seated diners (44" min suggested). If your table expands to seat 12, add another 12" to the room's length. Those room dimensions do not allow for any additional furniture in the room, such as a sideboard or a china hutch.

If your DR isn't large enough to seat everyone at your table plus any DR furniture you own, now's the time to increase its size. This will impact your kitchen's dimensions.

Do you really need so much counter seating? Your plan shows seating at the island and at the peninsula in the DR. Seems excessive to me. The peninsula seating also adds additional width requirements to your DR. 60" is the minimum recommended aisle for back to back seating. Less than that and people will likely need to sidle, not walk, between diners seated back to back.

The other issue I have with the spec'd counter seating arrangement is that it's all in a row, like a lunch room counter. That's not as conducive to conversations as seating on 2 sides of an island.

There also seems to be some wasted space above the kitchen. How wide is the hallway going to the bedrooms? Is it 48"? Or wider? I can't read the dimension.

The other area with a wide aisle is the area between the exterior wall and the island, if it really is 7' (84") as it appears on your plan. Do you intend to leave it empty or are you adding casual seating - chairs only - in this little alcove? It's not wide enough for a table and chairs, not without infringing on the aisle here.

I'd like to see some counter near the pantry so that you have a place to set down groceries close by.

Now's the time to identify the less-than-ideal aspects of your home's design. There's not much worse than realizing that something doesn't work right for you and your family *after* it's completed and you move in. It's much cheaper to make corrections at this stage of planning so find the courage to tell hubby you want to make changes now. =)

While I wait for answers, here's a suggestion for you. It's a rough idea since your plan does not provide dimensions for the space.

I moved the pantry door to open into the kitchen, spec'ing a pocket too. You can set groceries down on the island or on the counter to the left of the cook top to unload into the fridge and the pantry.

I moved the DOs and fridge to the bottom wall in the corner. No black holes, no light blocked, no disruption of stretches of counter. I'm not familiar with the needs of French door ovens so check to see how close to a wall you can install them.

Use the counter next to the cook top for setting down oven items. You have 3 choices for where to set fridge items: counter next to cook top, island and counter between fridge and sink.

The UC speed oven is to the left of the cook top. It looks like you'll have about 36" of counter on each side of the cook top.

I left upper cabs on this wall but if you find you have sufficient storage, you could eliminate uppers and go with a statement hood. If you do that, I'd eliminate the wall at the top end of the cook top run.

I moved the clean-up sink and DW to the peninsula. It will take fewer steps to set and clear the table. I provided suggestions for where to store dishes, glassware, etc.

I eliminated the peninsula's seating overhang in favor or shallow storage for bar- and stemware. You could also use these cabs to store liquor. If you have young kids, you'll need to add a lock to this cab.

I moved the wine fridge to the island, facing the great room, at the end of the island's seating overhang.

I added a prep sink to the island, in far enough from the corner to allow the trash pull--out (facing fridge run) along the short side of the island. Trash placement is near to prep and clean-up zones. Most trash is generated during prep so a variation of this would be to turn the trash cab to face the pantry. It would mean an extra step or two to dump trash from the clean-up zone but it would be a more convenient set-up for prep.

I elongated the island, rounded the top end and added seating on 2 sides of the island.

One of the biggest problems with this Kitchen (per the original post) is that all three primary work zones are crammed into a small part of the Kitchen with a lot of space outside these zones with no real purpose - that's why I call it "wasted". There are three primary work zones in a Kitchen:

• Prep Zone...where food is prepared and includes a water source, the trash pullout, and a bare minimum of 36" of counterspace - 42" is much, much better. This task is where the most work and time are spent in the Kitchen: 70% or more. Because this is the most used zone, it should have the best location - view, etc.
• Cooking Zone...where food is cooked and includes the range/cooktop and, if possible, oven(s). Activities include actually watching food cook, stirring, adding ingredients, putting something in the oven, etc. This is where the least work/time is spent: 10%
• Cleanup Zone...where dish cleanup takes place and includes a water source and the DW. Activities include clearing the table and counters, wiping down the table and counters, handwashing the few items that are handwashed, loading/unloading the DW. Depending on how much you handwash, 20% or less of the work/time spent in the Kitchen is spent cleaning up. Dish storage should be in this zone. It should be separated from the Prep and Cooking Zones so there is little or no zone-crossing (see below). Ideally, it should be located near the primary eating area.

Other info:

• The Prep Zone and Cooking Zone should either be next to each other or across from each other with an aisle of at least 42" (for a one-person Kitchen). If more than one person will be working in the Kitchen at the same time, then the aisle should be a minimum of 48". I would not have an aisle much wider than that, personally.
• There should be no traffic through the Cooking Zone - this is the zone that should be the most protected b/c of the presence of the range/cooktop and working with hot food, etc.
• The Cleanup Zone should be separated from the other two zones with it's own workspace. Ideally, the trash pullout that's in the Prep Zone should be accessible to the Cleanup Zone, but some people just put in a small trash can under the cleanup sink or put a small trash pullout next to the cleanup sink instead. If there is only one sink in the Kitchen, then the sink acts as the separator - the Cleanup Zone is the side with the DW and the Prep Zone is the side without the DW but with the trash pullout. You need the most workspace for the Prep Zone, but it would be nice to have at least 36" in the Cleanup Zone as well for stacking dirty dishes.
• Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out into the aisle the farthest - whether that's a counter edge, appliance/appliance handle, or something else. They are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet - which is how your layout appears to be measuring (that's not your fault - most GCs and many KDs make this mistake for whatever reason.)
• Placing the Cleanup Zone in the island puts your dirty dishes "front and center" and on display for all to see - is that what you want? In addition, it puts dirty dishes "in the face" of anyone sitting at the island - not pleasant from a visitor's point of view. In a small Kitchen, this sometimes cannot be avoided, but that is not the case in your Kitchen - it's plenty big enough to avoid this pitfall! I'd much rather see a prep sink in the island and the Cleanup Zone on the perimeter where the dirty dishes are not so prominent.
• The trash pullout should be in the Prep Zone b/c the majority of trash & recyclables are generated when preparing and cooking a meal. Ideally it should also, first, be near the Cooking Zone and, second, accessible from the Cleanup Zone.
• The refrigerator and MW should be on the periphery of the Kitchen so snackers can use them without getting in the way of those preparing and/or cooking a meal.
• The refrigerator should also be near the primary eating location - whether that's a Nook or a Dining Room.
• Thee should be no zone-crossing - i.e., you should not have to pass through the Cleanup Zone to go b/w the Prep & Cooking Zone or to/from the refrigerator and Prep & Cooking Zones. Sometimes it's not possible to eliminate all zone-crossing, but it should be minimized. The most important one to avoid is having the Cleanup Zone b/w the Prep and Cooking Zones.
• The island should not be a "barrier island". I.e., you should not have to go around the island to get to the refrigerator from the Prep or Cooking Zones and you should not have to go around the island to/from the Prep Zone and Cooking Zone.
• Island...I would not put cabinets under the overhang much deeper than 15". Accessing cabinets under an overhang - any overhang - is not easy. Yes, this is complicated by the fact that the minimum recommended seating overhang for counter-height seating is 15" of clear leg/knee space, but even a skimpy 12" is an issue. (Just so you know, 24" deep cabinets under any overhang will be almost impossible to use.) In addition, I would put pullouts facing the sides of the island with other cabinets b/w them under the overhang. This helps minimize the issue with the overhang.
• Seating recommendations...
  -- Overhang: Minimum 15" for counter-height, 12" for bar-height, 18" for table-height
  -- Linear spacing: Minimum 24" per seat for counter-height & bar-height, 30" for table-height (30" is a relatively new recommendation)

First and foremost, thank you both for your time and effort helping me with my kitchen design. I really appreciate all of your advice and concern.

It may help to know this Is intended to be the home we will live in through our retirement. While we enjoy entertaining occasionally, it is not our primary focus but we definitely enjoy cooking for ourselves and our 11-year-old granddaughter, who we are raising. Due to a disability, our granddaughter may continue living with us indefinitely so she is a primary consideration when making decisions about this house.

After sitting and discussing all of your suggestions with my husband last night, we concluded the following:

1). For traffic and accessibility reasons, we don't want to relocate the refrigerator nor do we want to relocate the dishwasher directly across from the refrigerator. That said, we recognize the need for a proper prep zone so we are considering the addition of a prep sink on the peninsula as suggested.

2). For convenience and safety reasons, we want to locate the speed oven at counter height, rather than under-counter as stated in my original post. Since there is counter space on the island across from the refrigerator, we thinking of locating the speed oven next to the refrigerator.

If we install a prep sink on the peninsula, will we also need to install a second garbage disposal and trash receptacle?

Is your granddaughter in a wheelchair? I'm asking b/c there are other considerations in designing a Kitchen if she is. E.g.,

• A place (in the future) where she can work that would allow her to bring her wheelchair to the counter - empty space under the prep sink + a bit more, perhaps;
• A table-height work and seating area for easier access from a wheelchair.
• A place that's 60" wide for turning a wheelchair.

I have been working on a different design, but the information about disability + you plan to retire here makes a difference. The space should be designed with universal design and/or accessibility in mind. (Even if your granddaughter is not in a wheelchair - it's something to think about for anyone in the future. It doesn't mean you have to make a wheelchair space now, but you might consider designing a space that could be made wheelchair-friendly in the future.)

No, my granddaughter isn't in a wheelchair. Her disability is cognitive rather than physical.

While we've made certain accommodations in our new house for wheelchair use (e.g. wider doorways, grab bars in the shower) I'm not sure I'm ready to consider modifying my cabinets at this point but thanks for the suggestion.

Seeing this photo https://cdn.decorpad.com/photos/2014/05/19/8cd087726500.jpg has me wondering if we could reconfigure our island to accommodate a prep sink at the end nearest the wall oven. If we shift the primary sink and dishwasher to the left, do you think there would be enough counter space to install a prep sink and prepare food? Maybe we could use some cabinet space to install a second trash receptacle on that side of the island too. Thoughts?