He appears to be a gardener expressing his opinion on what he does/works best for him, not a someone writing about scientific evidence that supports one methodology over another.... I do what makes sense to me and is most efficient in our garden space. I agree with leaving as much organic matter as possible to rot down naturally, so all the backyard fallen leaves and pine needles are raked into the beds. Sometimes the leaves get chopped with the lawnmower or mulching leaf vacuum, and sometimes they are left whole. In the front, DH likes a 'neater' look and rakes fallen leaves off the grass and leaves them at the curb for leaf pick-up (and we get compost from the Town's compost give-away in the spring....) In the fall we cut down taller perennials that have stiff stems that don't break down easily (e.g. hardy hibiscus, phlox, Persicaria polymorpha, and others). We also cut down peony foliage and anything else mildewed or disease-prone. While spores etc. may be everywhere, the plants probably have a bit easier time fighting off infections if they're not smothered in the stuff! In the spring we pull dead foliage back from crowns if needed to help things warm up and get growing. Most of the spring work is centered on pruning things like roses, clematis and hydrangeas.

Camp. - I agree that the interactions in the soil are fascinating and something that would be useful to know more about. We have a friend who is a senior soil scientist at Agriculture Canada who does research relating to soil microbes and drug resistance. There is a lot more stuff happening in the ground than one might expect! When we started gardening here, we used a lot of the mycorrhizal fungus planting supplement. There is now an obvious difference in the quality of the soil in areas where we used it compared to areas where we didn't.

The author of the article says "I own and operate a 6 acre private garden ----". "Operate"; what does that mean?

Personally, I'm suspicious of people who speak out to claim to have most, if not all, of the answers for success in other peoples' perennial gardening.

It sort of seems like what he said goes hand in hand with us being conditioned (or pressured) into thinking we need a weed free, green, well manicured lawn which is not good for the environment either. Clean up being mostly for aesthetic reasons hits a chord, anyway that comparison is what popped in my head when reading it.

I'm planning to leave mine this winter as is for the most part too. I've been planting with winter interest in mind since we don't get much in the way of snow here. I always have to keep certain plants like cactus and agave free of leaves piling up to prevent rot but that type of thing varies with different plants, some plants would suffer crown rot but most plants would be OK. I've read that for plants that are marginally hardy, its best to wait to trim them in spring. For example, we always leave Lantana stems even though they do look ugly in winter because the stems are hollow and water will run down into the center and rot the plant in this zone, further south they are evergreen and even bloom throughout winter or so I've read. Any plant native to warmer regions is best left untrimmed in my opinion. I've heard the same is true for Butterfly Bush in many areas.

on the other hand....

In places with winter fire hazards like Oklahoma, California and Texas often have, common sense tells you to cut down dead plant material along with the local news stations who tell you the same thing. This is especially true for tall grasses and even more especially if they are close to buildings. We are predicted to have a dry winter so I may be out there trimming in winter. Year before last was particularly bad and there were fires starting up everywhere and I spent a whole day cutting some of the big grasses down much earlier than usual.

Watering plants regularly in winter and especially newly planted shrubs, perennials etc is a common practice here. Sprinkler systems are seen going on 12 months of the year in the high dollar areas. It can get very dry in winter and people mistakenly think since the plants are dormant they don't need it. Leaving debris as mulch does help. Personally I hate watering in winter because I always freeze to death and usually its windy to add to the misery but I often have to. I usually wear dishwashing gloves to do this because otherwise its downright unbearable.

I don't give thought to stuff like spores or insects unless I see disease or an infestation. Currently I have red spiders on my nice Yucca Rostrata ---AGAIN-- and I'm spraying it every few days with alcohol. Seems to be a loosing battle because it keeps happening.

I go by the theory that Nature rewards a mess. MY gardening practices follow accordingly. Any trimming I do happens in early spring.

I do try to remove diseased foliage from the flower gardens, though I go ahead and compost it since the veggies where it will get spread don't care about the mildew that infects peonies.

Otherwise, the best time to do garden cleanup is when I have time. Most winters, everything is buried under snow, so only the voles will benefit from seeds left past November or December, so it makes little difference when I clean up for the most part.

A few years ago, I had left matters until spring and was rewarded with mice making a real big mess chewing through the crowns of perennials and gnawing the bark from shrubs and roses ... oh, and deer camping out for the entire winter and digging down and exposing perennials and chomping on shrubs. I now remove all leafy plant material and wrap many of the shrubs and my yard becomes much less of an appetizing grazing ground. Lots of feral cats pass though and help with mouse population, though they can do little when 2 to 3 ft of snow covers the ground. I live all surrounded by forest and the birds and squirrels seem quite content with the wild berries and nuts and copious amounts of birch seeds available to carry them through winter.

wantanamara, don't you have a marathon of major tree thinning, trimming & clearing out overgrown tangled underbrush with a man-sized power saw each winter (wink wink) and building big stacks of cut tree limbs etc? I think that alone suffices to say, you are just too darn busy with the big stuff to worry about trimming back the little stuff, anyway, that's what I would be saying.

That is not the "garden", That is the woods. I do that when the birds aren't roosting and it is not 100F out there.I also like to wait till the beetles that carry live oak wilt are not active. I should be starting on that any day except I am working at my job way too hard to do anything but slog away at work, come home take an ibuprofen and go to sleep..I sure as hell don't clean up and leave things neat. All that mess holds the soil and moisture, protects seedlings.

I generally never do today what I can tomorrow, but I did learn a valuable lesson from volunteering in the alpine garden at the NY Botanical Garden. I was surprised last fall at all the cleaning up we were doing that I had thought were best done in spring. The gardener explained that while that may be true, he had to hit the ground running when the garden opened in spring. Crowds being pouring in as soon as the snow is gone, and they want to see a garden, not a work site. I realized that I had been depriving myself of a beautiful spring garden (not to mention visiting others) by having to work like a dog then. The years we had early snows and couldn't even finish raking were the worst. Now I do as much as I can in the fall.

After a long winter I can't wait for the days to warm and the opportunity to get outside and work. Mostly just to cut down the woodier perennials and grasses.

I've cut down my mildewed perennials every fall but can't say it has seemed to help. They still get mildew to varying degrees every year.

Me too. Like a lot of people around here I start trimming down & thorough cleaning in late February, mostly grasses but perennials too. We have good days and bad days that time of year but when the warmer springlike days happen, I'm out the door like a shot. Its nice to have a good excuse to be outside working, theres always lots of other people with the same idea up and down the block, anticipation and excitement seems to be in the air and everyone smiles & waves. Early bloomers like Daffodils and Quince are coming around and I like seeing the bits of new growth coming up around the dead stems so I get to have a close look for signs knowing real spring is just around the corner. Best of all, the Pin Oaks are finally done and its the last of the falling leaves so this cleanup lasts.

He appears to be a gardener expressing his opinion on what he does/works best for him, not a someone writing about scientific evidence that supports one methodology over another.

Take some more time on this site 'woody'. He isn't a biologist or formal scientist as such but he does try to reference on-line studies and articles to support his assertions. Look at his section of Garden "Myths"...it does get one thinking. As well I like his write-ups re his favourite perennials. He gardens around Guelph so it is applicable to 'us'.

He appears to me as a person questioning long held advice & beliefs by researching how or why they got started and debunking the ones that are myths or trends born out of suburban ideas of aesthetics while questioning the intelligence of these practices from an environmental perspective.

Example:

Around here landscapers started lopping off the tops of crepe myrtles in formal plantings a few decades back for a perfectly uniform look & height along medians etc. In the old days, no one did that or would even think of doing it to the ones in their yards (I'm remembering to back to the 60's). Nowadays the majority of people do this yearly as if its required and about 98% of them are cut back into flat topped, stumpy looking trees each spring. A common question now asked is "When am I SUPPOSED to trim down my crepe myrtle?" as if it must be done (for more blooms or something) and done at the correct time. The correct time is February by the way because thats when the city always does it. An untrimmed crepe is actually quite graceful while a lopped off one is not although it does appear very managed when completed.

I believe in our suburbanized country there are several similar long held garden practices which have become ingrained as being necessary no matter where a person lives and eventually people unquestionably believe those must be done when often its a matter of keeping up a certain acceptable look or because everyone else does it.

Its a good thing to question the validity if not the common sense of certain practices. I liked the article rouge, thanks for posting it.

He explained everything I do. I do nothing but handle the leaves on the grass areas. I do not cut anything down or do any tidy up until Spring. The snow covers everything all winter so I do not see it anyway.

I have done this my entire garden years and it works for me. I think gardens should be done according to your area and what makes the gardener comfortable and happy. I do not want to attack my garden as a scientific demand.

Plants live for years in the woods without my help of cleaning I think they will live just fine in my garden. I buy plants that survive my climate. It is probably why I have such bad luck with roses I do not believe in trying to do a bunch of work when the gardens are not up and running.

Precisely - scientific demands, while no doubt quite correct, are so often not the reason why any of us garden - far less tangible demands are pressing upon me - beauty, joy, the sheer surprise at the tenacity of life. If there is a happy conflation between botanical and biological needs...and my own dilettante dabbling, then all well and good...but so often, I am out here, mucking about witlessly like a small child in a playpen. True, in recent years, the larger environmental picture has imposed itself on my behaviour...but this is just part of our general learning to be better gardeners (and not waste so much money on failed whims and caprices). In truth, I don't actually have any strong feelings about ways of doing things in the garden (although I would probably choke in indignation if I lived in a drought area to see the sprinklers of the rich and ignorant and I have no time for countryside despoilers) - I tend to save all my furious opinionated ranting for politicians and their apologists.

I was self-taught for a long time - a good way to really learn the lessons of right plant, right place and so on...but slow. Taking instruction from experts was a quick shortcut...and forced me to confront aspects such as turfcare and conifers, I had zero interest in. Both methods have validity. I do like to push against 'the rules' though.

I buy plants that survive my climate. It is probably why I have such bad luck with roses

I am curious marquest re your apparent lack of success with roses. Your hardiness zone would allow for many roses to be successful...just wondering.

I think gardens should be done according to your area and what makes the gardener comfortable and happy. I do not want to attack my garden as a scientific demand.

Word.

Rouge - I think you may have misinterpreted my comment..... I didn't mean to imply I was dismissing his comments because he wasn't a scientist! What I meant was that as he is a non-scientist, I'd evaluate his comments on the same basis I would for the comments of any experienced gardener. In the abscence of scientific evidence that 'this' vs 'that' is is the 'right' way to do something, I look to what I know works for me in the conditions of my garden, what has worked for knowledgeable gardeners in similar condition to those I have, what I've learned from courses I've taken and from reading sources I consider reliable, etc.

(When I'm looking for information on-line, I usually add site:.edu to the search word(s) I'm using. That will turn up a lot of Extension sites and other horticultural and agricultural university sites which (hopefully!) have a reasonable degree of credibility. But you still need to evaluate where the site is vs where you are to judge whether the growing conditions there are reasonably similar to yours because that could very well affect whether their comments/recommendations are relevant to you or not.)

Personally, I like marquest's natural approach.

You don't need to be a scientist, verified source or an expert to write a thought provoking blog suggesting these kinds of common sense ideas for environmental consideration:

"Birds feed on the standing seed heads" (exception remove those that are too aggressive and become weeds)

"remember 9 out of 10 insects are the good guys and if you give them a warm place to sleep over winter they will be there to protect your plants next spring and summer"

[bees] "need litter in the garden to survive"

"The best time to mulch is when you get the stuff, it should be on your beds all year long"

The point he is making is to think more environmentally as opposed to what is most likely obsession with control & neatness. If he makes people think or at least question old ideas, he was successful.

I completely agree tr2..... what irritates me is blogs/posts that say - or imply - that 'this' (whatever 'this may be...) is the correct way to do things - without offering any validated support for why it is the 'correct' way. Opinions from experienced gardeners when you know - or they discuss - their growing conditions are easier to evaluate vis a vis one's own garden. So, one of the first things I try to get a sense of when scanning a new blog is whether the writer is an experienced gardener offering an opinion, or a science-type offering validated information, or a more casual gardener. I assessed - from a quick read - that this person fit the experienced gardener category, but did not feel that the information provided constituted 'a new take' as it seemed common sense (as in marquest's natural context) and did not seem to add any new science to the discussion. I think many people who post here - including me - look for and value the input and opinions of experienced gardeners to provide practical balance to the 'fluff' that is often part of the marketing and promotion of plant varieties.

... scientific demands, while no doubt quite correct, are so often not the reason why any of us garden - far less tangible demands are pressing upon me - beauty, joy, the sheer surprise at the tenacity of life. ..

Each spring I judge (right or wrongly) the success of my previous fall's 'cleanup' on the health of the perennials i.e. basically did they make it through the winter. For example if through experience that leaving the perennials uncut results in successful overwintering of said plant I will continue with such a practice.

rouge21_gw(5), My bad rose results is because I have a love of tea roses. The worst for my climate.

-The other reasons is although I am a zone 6 I refuse to do all that wait until the ground freezes and cover,

-zone is not everything low snow fall most years. the crazy freeze and thaw. We can be 60 in Jan one day the next day rain I mean hurricane type rain all day and by night fall we can be down to20 degrees, That swimming pool type rains and frozen pond around your plants can go on until Feb.

Roses just hate it. If we got cold and lots of snow for insulation and it stayed cold roses might survive.

zone is not everything low snow fall most years. the crazy freeze and thaw.

That is where differences (still?) lies between US and Canadian hardiness zone calculations. For example in Canada, snow cover is taken into account when arriving at a location's hardiness zone designation.

blogs/posts that say -or imply - that 'this' (whatever 'this' may be) is the correct way to do things - without offering validated support for why this is the 'correct' way.

The accepted 'correct way' seemed to be exactly what he was questioning and looking into to, checking to see if there were validated facts to support it. I didn't get that he was saying his way was correct at all, just the opposite in fact. He was saying those practices were not necessarily good for the environment, beneficial insects etc. rather, that they were done primarily for aesthetic reasons and it was contrary to what goes on naturally in areas where there is no human interference.

ah yes, but my garden is 100% pure artifice...nothing 'natural' going on there (tongue in cheek).

It's a tricky one though - most people really don't take kindly to being hectored or lectured...and even less so when there is even a whiff of superiority or taking some moral high ground. And it is far, far worse when the subject matter is dear to your heart. For instance, anyone telling me how best to care for my bicycle may point out my deficiencies (and hopeless rusty chainguard, lack of oil and ancient grinding gears) as much as they want - I simply don't care and may even shrug and have a quick spray of WD40. Same with cooking - I don't give a single jot about my failed cheese sauce methodology or why I should be making mayonnaise from scratch. But start harping on about seedsowing, particularly if my cherished methods come under fire...and I get very snotty and defensive indeed. A gentle suggestion - fine...but imply I am some environmental hooligan and I start to feel a bit of blood boiling and steam arising from nostrils. It's all in the delivery...and a certain recognition that gardens and gardeners are, in many ways, quite unique and not really amenable to overarching theories - have done it myself - cheerfully suggesting plants which will simply shrivel and die in a US summer...or winter...or soil type.

On the subject of cooking though - I would say that 'humble pie' is the most common item on my normal menu - I eat tons of it....but only when it has been carefully produced by myself, after a long marinading in tolerance and acceptance...and certainly not when force-fed with bitter condiments of guilt or shame.

Camps, I'm not sure if you are referring to me or someone else posting or just speaking in general about message delivery. I know a lot of times I've come across badly judging by responses so I'm often figuring it might be me.

I have a reaction to remarks or comments delivered with a strong whiff of master gardener snobbery and a lot of hubris because it seems other people are being written off, patronized or judged as inferior. Often I sense that I am viewed as living in a place so alien that NONE of my garden plants, advice or comments are applicable.

Thats true what you said. A garden is by its very nature artificial, unnatural and contrived. Its a matter of how far a person wants to go in the direction of control and unnaturalness. The question should be "how much do I need to do to keep it that way". Sometimes the answer is: A lot.

In the end when it comes to fall cleanup, in real life its usually either a matter of "I don't care" or "I do it when its most convenient" or "I simply cannot stand looking at it"

Course I am not referring to you Tex - I would say so for starters...but I am referring to those garden writers who do adopt a slightly superior tone which just riles me up...mainly because I am such an imperfect being that I fail to even take my own advice, let alone someone else's. I have never claimed to be an organic gardener and will use both herbicides and fungicides if the need (as judged by me) arises...but so strong was the disapproval on my allotment site, I was reduced to sneaking around spraying under cover of darkness. And the very same people who were vociferous in judging my 'selfish and irresponsible chemical use' were the same ones who harboured diseased plants (and pernicious weeds) for years on end. I might offer up a friendly suggestion (particularly since I subscribe to blightwatch and get advance warning of climate conditions for phytopthera to penetrate) but I try not to insist that anyone should do as I say - although the furious ferment within the privacy of my own head is NOT peaceable and tolerant at all.

Camp I totally understand the superior tone of some that gets to me. There are forums I do not even post anymore because I could not deal with the Superior dirt discussions. If you did not use this superior recipe dirt your plants were going to die. Know one could give advice without the Superior stepping in and telling every one how wrong every one was unless they said this person's name and gave the special dirt sauce recipe.

I have been growing plants, and gardening for more years than I want to admit. I do not have time for that silly need to be superior. I guess that is what people say get a life. I have too much life to need applause on a garden forum. When that is all they have I let them have it they need it more than I do.

It is sad because those forums were active now they have one or two post a year. So now the superior has no one to talk to now;. Forums are only enjoyable when all participants can join in the conversation share their and experience.

Re reference to Science above:

Gardening is not a science (viz. in terms of body of knowledge attained through the application of the scientific method); for that matter neither is horticulture or agriculture generally.

The obvious application of science that comes into gardening is the use of botanical Taxonomy and Nomenclature.

Camps, you might like this one by the same author who wrote the one rouge posted:

http://www.gardenmyths.com/vinegar-weed-killer-myth/

I've never been on the soil forum but there are some folks who get quite militant and preachy when it comes to herbicides and pesticides and think organic is the only acceptable way to treat anything in every situation. On the Natives Forum the professional people who are actually employed to do native plant restoration disagree and they would not be on your case like your fellows out there looking down their noses on you, they'd be talking applicators, best time to treat, ratios of water to herbicide mix and stuff like that, in other words, information you could use.

I also pulled up his Insecticidal Soap blog. Seems I blew it on that one. I mixed DETERGENT aka Dishwashing Soap (he makes this distinction) with alcohol to spray on my red spider infested yucca. It does kill the buggers but the plant looks worse now. I figured soap was soap and thats what was in the cabinet.

marquest, there used to be a guy like that on the O. Grasses Forum, like the omnipresent always hovering, grass monitor in the sky. A lot of the forums seem to be dead or dying on GW. Trudi left the Wintersowing Forum and its dead now, was it a cult following? I think a lot of people went to FB after Houzz took over. Texas and Oklahoma Forums are still active but its a loyal group like the one here.

Yea, now that I think about it, if Camps had meant me she would have said that because she seems to be an honest shooter.

Cheers Tex - I have always been a little staggered at the imaginary definitions of 'chemical' natural' and even non toxic. And where does quantity and frequency of use come in. In truth, lack of cash has been as much of a decider as lack of time or knowledge...and on all too many occasions, I have used whatever comes to hand, whenever I have the time or inclination to do it.

Ah, you got me thinking, Marquest, about gardening for a long time...which I haven't. I am a relative novice, starting out when I was 40 or so (was 60 last week!) and crucially, after I had put in a couple of decades raising children. I was (and still am) pretty gung-ho about messing about with plants - I had done all that insecurity and anxiety stuff with the kids (and numerous pets) so didn't really fret too much about right ways and wrong ways of gardening (I murdered millions). I think my story is very common. I had a brief few years when I thought I had basically cracked it but have recently been deported right back to beginner status...where, again, I feel I know nothing. The last couple of months I have been back in my allotment comfort zone (rubbish overheating truck), unable to trek to Norfolk so have not been doing much in the woods at all.

I think the point I am labouring to make is that learning (improving) is not some steady linear progress but consists of fits and starts with setbacks and little epiphanies....and is sometimes completely out of our control. I know there are people here who have spent a lifetime with hands in the soil...and others are fairly new to the game so do tell - what have your learning experiences been like and did you reach a place of confidence? If so, when? And how? I went back to (part-time) college for 4 years, even though I had been working as a jobbing gardener for a couple of years ...which gave me an enormous boost... but acquiring enough space to really experiment has knocked me back on the learning curve. I think it will be a steep one.

I admit to being as interested in my fellow gardeners as in their gardens so hey, what unlocked the keys to the secret garden for you. Was it a slow and creeping introduction? Overnight sensation? Blindsiding you out of nowhere or sneaking in on the back of work, art, lifestyle?

Oh dear - wandering far off topic now...but surely reflection is about preparing for winter.

"I murdered millions", Camp.

Me too! If we're including weeds, perhaps the numbers could really be up there. Otherwise it was less evident. Sometimes it was murder with intent and sometimes it was homicide through negligence or through ignorance.

But further to what you say, in life as in gardening, some of us are happy to live on a learning curve.

I feel like I'm learning a lot this fall. One big revelation is that I'm less and less interested in hard work every weekend as I get everything nice for the winter.

A riding mower might make it more fun as I mulch the leaves but I really don't have enough lawn to justify it.... So I just pop a few Tylenol and keep going. It's distracting though, I'd really rather get the tulips planted :)

I use Advil if I absolutely have to, but I'd much rather save myself for fall happy hour and a glass or two of wine.

I finally started doing resistant exercises and drinking whey powder shakes. It tastes really good, I could easily get addicted and drink three of them just for the taste. For me, its a motivation to go do the exercises and a reward.

Whey is protein thats already broken down into the usable form of amino acids that goes straight to rebuilding muscles without have to be broken down in the digestive system. You are supposed to drink it within an hour of working out.

I've got a weight machine here at home that I've been dusting when I clean house but not using for years. After a wake-up call of going to the doctor & being shocked when getting on the scales seeing a drop in weight down to a number I have never weighed in my adult life for no good reason along with noticing how thin my arms and legs have become and how weak my muscles are getting, I got online to see if there was anything I could do to prevent a further downhill slide.

I looked this up by typing in 'muscle atrophy aging'. I found a geriatric medical site where they'd tried these two things on elderly people in nursing homes -- people who couldn't get out of a chair unassisted or walk and they could do so after being on the program so they are continuing the program of resistance exercise and whey powder. They said improvements were astounding in some cases. It didn't work when the people only consumed the whey or just did the exercises without the whey. They deduced its because their bodies could no longer build back muscle like a younger person because when you get older, your body doesn't process whole proteins like a younger person making for muscle decline as you age and a need for more protein consumption than a younger person. When you pull up whey, you end up in the world of body builders and all that sort of thing.

It doesn't matter if you are thin or heavy. Muscle mass declines with age and that can be the cause of pain and strain. I'm hoping to prevent certain things, if you can relate. So far the joints seem OK. Fingers crossed.

I bought Gold Standard brand whey powder in a huge 74 serving container online at Amazon (free shipping) for cheaper than I can buy locally. I'm anxious to see if this works, I just started a week ago.

I probably sound like an advertisement or endorsement ad, I hope no one takes it that way. I doubt I'm the only one who posts here who has similar issues. I'm really hoping and trying to stay optimistic hoping to get in better shape & reduce chronic pain in my core muscles by doing this.

Heavy but relevant, TR2.

When the going gets tough, the tough really do get to need a bit of help to get going.

SB, its not heavy yet thank goodness & knock on wood. I can still do what I always have in the garden etc. Its just a a wake up call (hello stupid--wake up) and a look forward to a possible future imagining what will likely happen if I don't do anything. Anyway, I've been saying I need to work out with weights for years, the machine has been idle and now I'm finally motivated & serious about it. Besides, those shakes are really as good if not better than a malt or shake from Braum's Ice Cream Store.

You have me wanting to try one of those shakes! I'll have to keep my eyes open for a local supply, I do have a weak spot for shakes especially the malted kind!

tex it Whey works. When my mother was sick and weak at the age of 80 her surgeon wrote a prescription for the Whey along with a pharmaceutical cream he wanted her to use for her skin. I could not believe the change. It was amazing. She lived until 90 her kidneys finally gave out.

Camp I tell people I think my first solid food was probably garden soil. My mom had so many houseplants and had me in the garden as far back as I can remember. I was sent to college with plants to care for in my dorm.

Mr Camps sounds a bit like you, Tex - tall, thin and now has osteoporosis. Unlike myself, he needs to eat little and often and has never, to my rage, managed to muster a single ounce of fat, despite being a builder, plasterer, roofer and landscaper all his life. He also has Ehlers Danlos (sp?) syndrome...or ultra elastic cartiledge and ligaments holding his skeleton in place and along with the terrible sepsis scare this summer, I admit to looking at whey protein to convert him from Mr. Puniverse to Universe. Unfortunately (and quite unlike me) he does not care for shakes of any sort - I consider it a success that he now has 2 eggs for breakfast instead of toast and jam (my jam but even so...) And I also have 30 odd lbs of jelly sitting in the cupboard (Xmas pressies?)

I have the typical peasant shape - thunder thighs, short spine, strong shoulders built for endurance, lugging loads of firewood on the taiga - I couldn't squat on my heels to save my life but I can, and do, a full days digging and bend from the hips to weed for hours at a stretch.

Marquest, when I was raising infants, I couldn't keep a plant alive...it was as if my nurturing skills were all required for the offspring and nothing left over for even a measly spider plant. Oddly enough, it was my 9year old middle child who got me started on the gardening thing after having a 'clear-up' of the mud patch we called a garden (dogrun). We bought a lavatera which, to noone's surprise but my own, thrived...and when I followed up with rampant Japanese anemones, I became convinced, overnight, I had green fingers.A legend (in my own head) was born.

Another protein seeker here, to slow down spousal decrepitude (mine too, to be truthful) would this be similar to protein powder?

Thanks for an ideA that may be more effective thannaggingg.l

Yes Marie it is a protein powder. It comes in different strengths. The doctor had my mother taking 25 g twice a day. She had ulcers on her legs it helped them heal and the strengthening of the muscles was the goal.

I did a little research before settling on Gold Standard brand whey powder. I'm only 4 days into this so far but I'm optimistic. One thing is for sure, it can't hurt to try and since its protein and exercise that has to help, it feels so good to finally be addressing this, honestly, I'm quite excited to see how this turns out.

http://thesupplementreviews.org/protein-powders/on-whey-gold-standard-protein-powder-review/

I can't find the other article where I first ran across the whey and elderly people but here is one that explains how it works.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/278509-whey-protein-elderly-muscle-wasting/

Mostly, I want to keep active as long as possible and build up my core strength because those muscles are so weak its hard for me to maintain good posture and I get tired gardening more than I used to. I hurt all the time in the front and the back from strain due to weak muscles, you can see all the ribs and my arms are like sticks. The doctor said to put on some weight because if I get sick there is nothing in reserve and besides that, it doesn't look very good being this thin, its not a youthful looking thin anymore, its a make you look older kind of thin. You've probably seen people who are frail, thin, old and look as if they have withered away into skeletons which is older looking than heavier people IMO. When I see that, I always think that will be me in the "nearer than I like to think about" future.....

I did 60 rows last night with 20lbs of resistance and several others, some are easy some are not. I'm embarrassed to say I am finally learning the different exercises on the machine I've had so long but today I'm sore from exercises & thats a good thing. I was told to really focus on the lats and I like that rowing exercise and the other two so at least thats not a huge dread.

I'm mixing the whey in a big glass of cold whole milk and eating more eggs as well. I got the 'Vanilla Ice Cream' flavor.

Camps, I don't find it surprising that your husband has osteoporosis. At my church I there are two types in the older bracket, the ones always fighting weight gain and us skinny chicken types that never seem to put weight on no matter what. I've got osteoporosis and I've asked them if they'd been diagnosed with it and all them said yes. The heavier ones seem to be prone to joint problems & replacements more so than osteoporosis. I can squat on my heels for hours but have a weak back. That's why I like weeding, I'm comfy doing that.

I am more fat than skinny and I can work all day and squat on my heals, crawl on my knees, wield a chainsaw and pick, drag out brush and do a full lotus for hours (well slight exaggeration about the full lotus since I can not sit on my @ss for more than 5 minutes without bouncing out and going somewhere). I need to give up peanut butter. That has caused an additional 8 lbs down therein the bum during the last 6 months since I have been buying it again. I stay away from mirrors but am in good functional shape for 63 , just generously lumpy.TX, add some P&B to that whey shake.

I have been out adzing soil in the light rain, (bent over grubbing out KR bluestem and planting Ratbida columnifera seed in my meadow that a certain person so generously sent.

Ah Mara, my particular vice has been Nutella (on buttery toast, natch) and my beloved leather trousers are creaking at the seams...but unlike denim (which will never, ever be worn by me...nor those abominations known as trainers), they have generous flex.

Mr Campanula has been in semi-retirement for the last year leaving me as sole earner...but have joined up with eldest son as a garden tag team. If I had the temperament, I could have an army of minions (no shortage of work in wealthy Cambridge) but a lifelong aversion to the 'boss class' has rendered such an idea laughable. And I am a terrible skiver - the minute rent and food has been earned, it's time to down tools.

I am pretty sure I could not do even a quarter lotus.

Marquest, that personal report about your mother is encouraging, everything I've found out about this is from online but I did try to find sites that weren't selling products.

So I did the protein -whey thing when DH was really ill and looked like he was going to waste away. No thanks to any medical practicioners I figured out shakes that were approaching 700 or 800 calories each : full fat ice cream, whey and Ensure which by itself is pretty blah and chalky, but gets the vitamins in.

Really, only getting his spleen removed made him well but feeding him made me feel immeasurably better.

texasranger2 The doctor told me to get the GNC brand. I did not do any comparison of price but I know it worked. She was seriously ill and since it worked so good I believe it added 5 more years to her life. The difference I saw in her energy and strength was remarkable.