Yes, wafting scent in high heat .. they are alyssum flowers and they attract beneficial insects: bees, monarch butterflies, green lacewings (aphids lions). Will copy & paste your other questions here soon.

Here are some questions Lavenderlace asked me in HMF, which I'll insert my answer in between. Lavenderlace wrote the below:

"And now it and my Ebb's are so covered in roses that it totally covers the plant. Ebb Tide averages around 26 blooms (planted in July) but it's on a first year plant so it covers it!
I love the smell of Lemon Spice and I hear that its sport Sunday Lemonade is pink with the same scent. But one experienced lady told me that hers was wimpy and died so I don't know if that's common with sports or if she just got unlucky?

Answer: Yes, a sport is less vigorous. Marie Daly is a sport of Marie Pavie. But Marie Pavie is twice bigger, and is hardy to zone 4, while Marie Daly is only hardy to zone 6a, and died through my zone 5a winter. Anyone else have similar experience with less vigorous sport? Thanks.

"You might have solved my Heirloom problem ... But it's right near the porch and I wonder if the sandy top is draining quickly but there might be wet clay below?"

Answer: Heirloom is bred by William Warriner, who lives near Orange County, CA, which is a dry & alkaline area. So roses bred by William Warriner would do best in a dry climate & alkaline tap water California. pH of tap water in California is near 9 like my hard-well water high in calcium.

"On the other hand, I just bought some TINY Charles de Gaulles from RVR and put them in pots because they seemed too vulnerable to put in the ground. It has extremely well draining fluffy soil and it just looks sad. Arrived with some yellow leaves and black areas and hasn't really perked up. But according to my water meter, I'm having to water them a LOT and I wonder if all the nutrients could be washing out of the drain hole or if I'm just being too impatient? Is there a situation where the sulfate of potash could be counter-indicated based on the soil? "

Answer: Charles de Gaulle lineage is: seed:Sissi ® × Prélude (hybrid tea, Meilland 1954)pollen: Kordes' Sondermeldung (floribunda, Kordes 1951) × Caprice (hybrid tea, Meilland, 1948)

So Charles de Gaulle has two Meilland parents, which mean it likes alkaline and WET clay soil. Fast-draining potting soil doesn't have clay, and won't have enough calcium nor potassium for Meilland roses. Pots leached out lots of nitrogen & potassium & calcium. My Munstead Wood refused to grow in a pot despite weekly fertilizer, then I gave it some gypsum, and it threw a 3-feet long octopus cane.

Yellow leaves and black areas could be potassium deficiency: "Potassium deficiency - Yellowing and necrosis of the lower leaves, starting from their tips or their margins & Decreased blooming & Thin young shoots."

And black areas could be calcium deficiency, since potting soil turns more acidic with rain-water, it doesn't have "buffering capacity" like clay.

Calcium Deficiency Caused by:
- Low soil pH & Low soil cation-exchange capability (CEC).
- High levels of Magnesium, Sodium or other cations. Young leaves are distorted, with curled margins and tip or with brown spots. Old leaves are dark green.& Terminal bud necrosis & stunted root growth.

Black areas could also mean boron deficiency, which is common:

Boron Deficiency: Young leaves become irregularly shaped, thicker (especially around their tip) and dark green. - Extensive stem necrosis.
- Terminal bud necrosis. - Affected root growth.
- Decreased flower - Short internodes & Witches' broom.

http://www.plantsdb.gr/en/general-cultivation/fertilizing/457-nutrient-deficiencies-and-toxicity

**** From Straw: Lavender roses prefer some shade. I saw a pic. of very healthy & lots of blooms Neptune in a few hours of morning sun. Steve in Australia wrote this on Charles De Gaulle rose "Doesn't seem to like the rain (they ball if you get a lot of rain as they're ready to open), or extreme heat."

Balling in the rain means there isn't enough calcium and potassium available. I don't have problems with balling when I give roses calcium & sulfate of potash and keep the pH alkaline. One time I put too much sulfate of potash and blooms open too quickly & flat-out. Sulfate of potash definitely helps to open blooms, but it needs magnesium and calcium to produce more petals.

Magnesium (in clay) is a co-factor for potassium, without magnesium, potassium doesn't work. All my French Meilland roses did lousy in potting soil, and become MUCH BETTER in my SOAKING WET alkaline clay (high in potassium & magnesium & boron).

Thanks for all of the info. But it's discouraging that they arrived with all these apparent deficiencies, yikes. Yellow leaves, big black patches, irregular leaves that look like part of them broke off, curled up leaves, you named it all!

They were only in transit for four or five days and were the smallest bands I've ever seen but I've only ordered from a few companies. I didn't use potting soil, and I was afraid the soil was too alkaline actually so that's a relief that they like it. They haven't got any worse but every morning I expect to see them dead!

Could it be just a transportation issue? The soil was wet on arrival though.

That link is extremely helpful also, thanks again!

Lavenderlace: Big black patches? See the pic. of my Duchess de Rohan way above with black patches from too alkaline horse manure. If Charles de Gaulle is own-root, it might be wimpy and need gypsum like Duchess de Rohan (also came in the mail with leaves all yellow from too wet). Calcium plus nitrogen = fast growth, see below Munstead Wood throwing 3 feet octopus cane after I added gypsum & alfalfa. Soil pH is slightly acidic:

Big black patches could also be giant blackspots from humidity in transit. Yellow lower leaves is poor drainage (too wet). Curled up leaves usually mean too acidic. I lean toward too wet & acidic, since Charles de Gaulle as grafted-on-Dr.Huey did well for DRY & ALKALINE clay folks like Roseseek (Kim Rupert) near Los Angeles.

Re-post my summary posted in September Roses thread:

Signs of over-fertilization: wilting in hot sun, leaves curl down.

too acidic: leaves curl up & thinner, and blackspots.

too alkaline: leaves twisted & crinkled (copper def), pale leaves.

potassium def: zero blooms, smaller blooms, thin & weak stems, and blackspots.

calcium def: less petals in blooms, stunt growth & short bush, or tip of growth turns black.

nitrogen def: small leaves & pale lowest leaves, and less leaves

Below is a pic. of TOO ACIDIC: pale & small leaves that curl up. I put too much acidic cracked corn (pH 4) and almost killed Munstead Wood. I had to dig that up, and put pH 8 black-gumbo-clay-top-soil to rescue Munstead Wood. One time I received many bands with thin & curled up leaves: nursery used pine-fines which were NOT decomposed, and I had to rinsed off those acidic chips.

Below is a picture of well-drained & black-gumbo clay pH 8, plus watering with pH 9 tap-water, plus fertilized with NPK 10-4-5 .. way too much nitrogen which cause large leaves & too many leaves. Decent potassium & phosphorus, very healthy Radio Times Austin rose:

Below showing at pH from 7 to 8, more potassium & calcium & magnesium & nitrogen & phosphorus available:

Jay-jay in the Netherlands put vermiculite & crushed red-lava in his soil medium to grow roses from seed. Vermiculite is for magnesium, and red-lava is for boron & potassium.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2350/

" Magnesium is an abundant alkaline element in the earth’s crust, occurring naturally in several minerals like dolomite, vermiculite and clay soils like montmorillonite. It is the third most dissolved element in sea water, and seafoods are among the foods highest in magnesium. Alkaline soils and humus-rich soils generally contain more magnesium that acidic soils. Magnesium ions are at risk of leaching along with nitrates and calcium ... Other plant sources for magnesium are organic materials (compost), animal dung and plant material. ....Some plants, notably roses, tomatoes, potatoes and peppers require a soil high in magnesium."

**** From Straw: French Meilland roses have a higher need for magnesium and prefer clay. But the roses that Val grows in her sandy & acidic hot Florida climate need less magnesium.

This is super helpful info! I saw your DDR and that's what made me think that the soil could be too alkaline. But the leaves curled up!

I left them in the pots that they arrived in until a couple of days ago because they looked so sad and I was afraid to disrupt them. The leaves do curl up but why would they arrive in acidic soil if that's the case? Or is that the whole Meillands not liking potting soil scenario?

I think I'll try your Munstead Wood cure if they survive until tomorrow, thanks again!

Your pictures and chart hadn't loaded before my last comment. Your Radio Times looks super healthy, wow!

Lavenderlace: I can't find the pics. of my Meilland rootings looking pathetic in fast-draining potting soil (with gypsum and slow-released fertilizer mixed in).

Even Khalid commented on how tiny & wimpy my rootings are. So I fixed my potting soil, and made the soil EVEN LOAMIER with more perlite. Meilland rootings got WORSE: blackspotted, less leaves, and thinner leaves. It rained lots, and more nitrogen & potassium & calcium got leached out, since there's no magnesium (the glue) to retain nutrients.

RVR where Charles de Gaulle came from is in a high-rain region. Annual rainfall for Oregon is from 65 inch. to 88 inch. per year, that's way more than my annual rainfall of 38 to 40 inch. Meilland roses are bred for alkaline tap water, and not acidic rain.

I have been rooting cuttings for a few years: when cuttings are first rooted, a FAST-DRAINING, low-nutrients medium is used: perlite, sand, peatmoss or pine fines. It's an acidic medium. But when roots start to grow, the nursery should switch to a denser & more alkaline medium with magnesium to prevent leaching of nutrients from heavy rain/watering.

The 7-leaflet (multiflora-parentage) rootings are healthy in that acidic & loamy medium, but the 5-leaflet Meilland-modern roses change from "alfalfa sprout" roots to woody-root faster, thus need more alkaline minerals to be healthy.

Gypsum & acidic alfalfa pellets worked with Munstead Wood since it was bred in a rainy & acidic England. But for Charles de Gaulle or French Meilland roses, my hunch is alkaline minerals such as dolomitic lime or alkaline clay is best.

Still remember how Liv Tyler (Meilland Romantica) broke out in rust when I dumped acidic gypsum. Still remember how I wilted Sweet Promise (Meilland) by just a touch of vinegar to lower my pH 9 tap-water. Meilland roses clearly like it alkaline. pH of rain is 4 to 5.6, and Meilland roses prefer pH 7 to 8.

Tomorrow I'll put some alkaline clay on top of those Meilland rootings in pots. THANK YOU, Lavenderlace !! You gave me insight to solve my problem with Meilland rootings. When I dug up Meilland roses, even 1-year-old own-root had thick & chunky-woody root, which means more alkaline minerals are needed.

That's a big contrast to multiflora-rootstock, which remains thin & hairy cluster.

Gorgeous roses, Straw!!! I'm going to try to remember to buy some Biotone Starter Plant food like you suggest. Should I only put it on my new bare roots, or should all of my roses get some??

Carol

http://depts.washington.edu/propplnt/Chapters/Myco_NPP_FINAL.pdf

Benefits: As discussed above, there are many ways that mycorrhizae facilitate healthy plant growth. Mycorrhizae increase the surface area of a plant’s root system and, as a result, the plant is able to absorb more water. This increase in water uptake increases the survival of transplants and facilitates drought resistance. In some cases, mycorrhizae increase a plant’s access to nutrients such as phosphorus and zinc, which can be important in tropical soils where phosphorus availability is low.

Hi Carol: I read through the entire long pdf-document above. Yes to watering ALL roses with Biotone Starter Plant food. The above document stated that one can get the root-system from a forest soil, and inoculate in pots .. but it's faster just to get commercially-made product. This is how they make mycorrhizae: They use a loamy soil, then plant a corn-plant, let it grow, get the root-system, chop that up to inoculate other plants. The link also talks about "spores" can spread to adjacent plant. The link talks about each plant has its own group of beneficial mycorrhyzal fungi.

I bought 5 cheap-bareroots-GRAFTED ON DR. HUEY early spring. The first hole contained composted leaves & cracked corn, plus roots of a vigorous pre-existing rose (Firefighter), plus gypsum. Double Delight was planted there, healthy & heavy and continuous bloomer.

The second hole was by roots of decayed & dead birch tree & dry spot. I put alfalfa pellets & lime .. and Paul Neyron died from too much acidic alfalfa.

The 3rd hole is clay & composted grass & coarse sand. Sun Downer and Heirloom are really wimpy & BS-fest and stingy. Lack of specific mycorrhyzal from a vigorous rose, too alkaline to promote fungi-growth at root system. Both the endo and the ecto types prefer slightly acidic.

The 4th hole is just clay & coarse sand near rain-spout. Gold Glow (grafted on Dr.Huey) died from wet & acidic rain, and lack of "rose-specific" mycorrhyzal. The link is right about 'TOO WET" or 'TOO MUCH FERTILIZER" can destroy the mycorrhyzal network.

I find that good-drainage & neutral to slightly acidic & moist medium with the most decayed organic matter produce the best mycorrhyzal growth. What does fungus like? Moist & neutral to slightly acidic, plus sugar from decayed organics.

*** The below link talks about how commercial products work in lab, but some are useless in actual field-testing. Such as only 5% success for corn-crop, and zero success with others. " Commercial inoculants had no effect on mycorrhizal colonization or shoot growth of trident maple or sweetbay magnolia liners. Product-treated magnolias grown from seed also developed little or no mycorrhizal colonization."

Link on field-innoculation of mycorrhyzal

I've ordered some ph strips. I have well water and I think that my data regarding ph could be more precise for you if we know what I'm watering with! Do we assume that all rainwater is the same? I

No. Rain water is much more acidic on the East coast. Many factors influence this. However, I think all rain water is more acidic than tap water. There are charts that give the approximate ph of rain in various locales. I'll seem if I can find one later. Where do you live, lavenerlace?

North Texas, thanks!

So it sounds like when we have our month and a half rain fest, I should use this often, because the mycchorzals keep dying?

Carol

Carol: I punch at least a dozen holes in my pots so roots are never waterlogged. The bottom holes can be controlled: elevated it, or put it flat down to block the holes.

Lavenderlace: Below is the link where I posted the map of rain pH across USA, and pics. of the effect of acid rain on plants.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4114089/mineral-nutrient-deficiency-and-secret-to-health-and-antifungal-trace-e?n=44

Thank you! And thank you for your patience in answering endless questions. For a newbie, it's hard to absorb all of it at once.

I might bring up the subject of horse manure compost because I'm not sure that we are always comparing apples to apples (pun not intended!) and it could affect our conversations on what works with what soil.

For example, my compost is non-GMO alfalfa, timothy, and vitamins and minerals from the horse's supplements, no grains. We don't use manure within a week after deworming products and the bedding mixed in is cedar shavings with PDZ or lime.

My friend's compost could be native grass, grain, corn, molasses, straw or cedar shavings as a bedding, vit/min supplements, and she's not worried about all the medications that are given.

Surely, the different scenarios (and there are many more examples) could affect roses differently? And even from the same batch, it's doubtful that it would all be mixed up the same way. As in, you might get a handful with a lot of PDZ and cedar shavings, and another with only alfalfa.

I realize after reading some of Straw's technical posts that roses are more sensitive than I realized so wanted to throw this out there for comments.

Lavenderlace: Agree with you 100% that there're differences in horse manure depending on type of horse feed and bedding. When I researched for zero-salt Standlee alfalfa pellets, there's another pellets sold for horse with probiotics added, plus vitamins, except it has salt !!

The horse stable near me: normally they use hard-wood-chips plus lime, it's dry & fluffy, and I never see mushrooms growing in the pile. One year they switched to wet straw as bedding, and I saw mushrooms growing in the pile. But husband got that anyway .. I mulched my roses with that wet & acidic horse manure .. roses broke out in blackspots !! I had to scrape that wet layer off.

PDZ and lime are good stuff, it adds calcium & alkaline minerals to the horse manure, but your friend's compost of corn & molasses & grain will be more acidic. Cedar shavings doesn't break down as fast as grains, plus less chance of termites.

From Gardenguides.com: "Cedar mulch contains oils that naturally repel some garden pests. Snails, slugs and moths, which are a source of the destructive cabbage looper and army worm, will avoid areas covered with cedar mulch."

Carol: I dug up studies on the effect of flood and mycorrhyzal uptake. Here's an excerpt from below link: https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/17165/PDF

"In the greenhouse study on flooded soils, root colonization by VAM fungi and their activity, as measured by arbuscule production, was not affected. The results of this experiment would support the hypothesis that lack of host plants during an extended fallow was the reason for decreasing VAM fungal hyphae or spores producing colonization and not extended water saturation of soil. During the year following flooding and fallow, the growing plants were a host for VAM fungi and the population was increased. However, extreme loss of VAM fungi may require more time to rebuild the population. In some cases, a plant which is less dependent upon VAM fungi can be planted. Soybean is more tolerant to decreased VAM fungal colonization and sorghum has even greater tolerance. In general, the shorter and coarser the root system, the greater the host plant dependence on mycorrhiza."

https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/17165/PDF

** From Straw: Yes, to innoculation of mycorrhyzal fungi after a wet month. Since multiflora is a shorter root, it will benefit from mycorrhyzal.

Flooding means it takes longer to build up the mycorrhyzal population. What I learned from the link: "Flooding decreases phosphorus uptake, and fertilizing with phosphorus doesn't help, if the soil is soaking wet ... plants can't take up phosphorus.

That's the same conclusion that University of Hawaii stated: "there's more phosphorus available in loamy or sandy soil."

Excellent!!! Thank you!!!

Carol

Straw, should I even being doing any of these amendments that we discussed this time of year? I have so many blooms and this is my first winter so not sure of the proper protocol other than to try to resist dead-heading (quite unsuccessful at that!).

First freeze is historically in two weeks, though it's quite doubtful that it will be the case this year as we are expecting a very mild winter.

Lavenderlace: Agree that horse manure really make roses bloom heavily .. esp. when they are fed alfalfa. Plus your loamy soil is ideal for lots of blooms. Frederic Mistral was really stingy on me when it was in hard & alkaline clay. But after I dug it up and fixed the clay with 1 bag of sand & leaves & sulfate of potash and topped with horse manure, it gave 40+ blooms for spring flush.

With heavy blooming, there's a deficit of calcium and potassium at the end, so I always give it calcium when I notice blooms have less petals. My PInk Peace's blooms at beginning of flush had tons of petals .. but the last bloom (end of flush) has 1/2 the amount of petals.

A couple of winterizing chores got done this week: partially cleaned my gutters which provided bags of partially decomposed leaves just ready to put on the beds! However, my big news is I finally made a compost bin for my upper lever and won't have to waste so much time lugging compost up from the lower level (and hauling all the leaves down there). I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Luckily, I had this fencing left from another project, but it was still a bear to get the stakes in amongst all the tree roots. I like how it sort of just blends right in. There's enough space to fit my large wheel barrow and cart inside. I still have to attach the chainlink divider. Then just fill 'er up with leaves, alfalfa hay and horse manure!

Vaporvac, the compost bin looks great!

Straw wrote: "With heavy blooming, there's a deficit of calcium and potassium at the end, so I always give it calcium when I notice blooms have less petals. My PInk Peace's blooms at beginning of flush had tons of petals .. but the last bloom (end of flush) has 1/2 the amount of petals."

If I supplement it now going into winter, will that tell it to keep blooming and then it might be damaged by frost? Or will it make it stronger to withstand a freeze? We were at 92 last week so it might be a tricky to get them hardened up in time if we get a freeze in two weeks per our average first frost.

I wonder if they are blooming so much because it finally cooled off a bit or if they are just coming into their own as first year plants?

Regarding your Fred M., I am searching for a very strong scent, but I've learned the hard way, that not all roses smell great! My Memorial Days smell like rotten bananas to me but it could be just that they are getting established. And nobody could accuse them of blooming too much!

On the other hand, Ebb Tide has been a blooming machine and is finally getting some scent!

Vaporvac: Thank you for sharing what's going on with your garden, and your compost bin looks really good ... I have to walk really far to get leaves this year. At least 10 trees along the side-walks belonging to neighbors died last winter: we had tons of rain in December, then really cold temp that froze and cracked roots of trees. Lots of my roses died last winter, with rain, then temp. dip way below zero. My zone 5a gets down to -20 F.

Lavenderrose: Blooming lots is typical of 1st-year own-roots, if given loamy soil and horse manure. Hose manure is rich in calcium beside its NPK and trace elements.

Firefighter gave me 80+ blooms as 1st-year own-root, since I made my alkaline clay loamy with pine-barks, plus horse-manure-mulch. This year I grew own-roots in pots 1st, and the blooming was pathetic, except for Strike it Rich, which I planted in 1/2 clay and 1/2 composted leaves .. at least 20 blooms since bought as own-root end of June. Its blooms have more petals after I topped with horse manure, thanks to the calcium.

At first I was worried that I made my clay too acidic by mixing in 1/2 pine-bark (pH 4) or 1/2 leaves (pH 5 to 6) ... but frequent topping with alkaline horse manure solved that problem. It's the 1/2 sand and 1/2 clay that's very stingy on me ... bagged sand is alkaline (pH 7.5) and my clay is too alkaline (pH near 8).

Gypsum is good for both own-roots and Dr.Huey-rootstock ... Seaweed in CA also put gypsum in the planting hole for her 250+ roses (grafted-on-Dr.Huey).

I didn't put gypsum in the planting hole for Heirloom nor Sundowner .. and those 2 are the worst performers this year: blooms with much less petals, and BS-fest. Same with pots, the year which I skipped putting gypsum in pots, own-roots were stunt & BS-prone.

When I checked on what nutrients is best for winter-survival: it's both calcium and potassium to harden the stems for cold weather. Plus calcium is VERY SLOW to move down, if I want zillion-petals blooms in spring, I apply calcium right now (late fall). Sulfate of Potash works instantly, but not calcium.

I give Meilland roses (dark-green & glossy leaves) lime, and I give pale & dull leaves roses gypsum (17% sulfur).

Wow! That compost area is really pretty!! Looks wonderful - great job!! Looks so natural there!

Carol

Thank you guys. That was the goal rosecanadian and worries about its aesthetics is probably what kept me from doing anything before. As my BF would say ,"It looks like it always growed there!" : ) It's by my side entrance so I just hope I don't scare the mailman away when I add the horse manure.

Nice compost Vapor Vac. Way to make compost great again. I have been building 2 compost piles also. I haven't shredded all leaves like Mike McGrath. I have got buckets of coffee grounds too which I mostly put around the roses. A little Saratoga horse manure. Thank you for your email message or otherwise I would not have seen your compost bin. I like the Paul Gauche you Tube. He likes arborist tree trimming wood chips. I like the back to Eden film method.

Sam: I'm glad you come back. I was wondering how's your Hugel raised-garden coming along. I lost weight via getting leaves, so many trees died that I had to walk far down the street to fill my large wheel barrow with leaves. Got about 24 loads.

Folks here don't put leaves in paper-bags. They rake leaves to the curb, then the town-village come with a dump-truck to vacuum up the leaves. If I want their leaves, I put into my wheelbarrow and walk home, or bag it myself & drive home.

Wow! It's illegal for us to put the leaves in the street perhaps because of the storm water drains. My only other neighbor that composts is moving and so decided not to do the big compost this year, but it bringing his bagged leaves to me. Yeah! I gave him some bags, but it's really nice to have. I'm putting those over a layer over wood compost I dug out from rotting logs I had at the side of my drive. Pure compost! If I feel motivated I'll add some manure and alfalfa hay over that for good spring growth.

I really need to get on those coffee grounds. My friend who gets me manure (1st time for me) daughter works in a coffee joint I recently found out. That's so great you can get Saratoga manure, Sam. I'm sure it's the best as those horse must get the most nutritious feed! ; ) I guess we're pretty much horse country around here being only a couple of miles from Ky.

The bin above is wide enough on both sides for my wheelbarrow and gardening cart.

Vapor Vac your compost bin seems great.

We can Drain the swamp. Make compost great again. Build the wall. On time and Under budget.

Oxygen is the key. Sounds like air will get to your compost well. The Rodale compost is 4 ft by 4 ft.

When we did our compost tea this year we aerated the water. Water does not have Oxygen. (O2). The dissolved oxygen comes from the motion of the creek, river or Brook. The rain pulls the oxygen O2 dissolved down into the soil.

It is why we aerated the compost tea to get the good life to come off of the compost and into the water. The O2 , the dissolved Oxygen in water will kill the disease causing microbes.

The soil beneath our feet is only 50% solid.

50 % is empty space in the form of air, water and water Vapor.

It's in this space where we have the life.

These microbes in the soil are what give the food to the plant. They supply all the nutrients that the plant needs, in the proper amount. It is the job of the microbes to maintain the pH and feed the plant in exchange for Proteins(amino acids) , carbohydrates and simple sugars. This is the recipe for cake and cookies. The plants job is to feed the microbes cakes and cookies through the exudates. It is the job of the microbes to build a castle walls around the roots to keep out the diseases organisms. Otherwise the plant would be dead.

Excellent post Sam!

I love this time of year in the garden. I am making the transition to the cold season. I am collecting my leaves , shredded for the beds and lots of coffee grounds for the compost . Some leaves (28 bags) unshredded are in the garage waiting to be used for winter protection to place around the roses to keep them cold after the freeze has set in for the winter.

Most of my time in the garden is spent observing nature. Plants get the minerals they need from the soil like in the old growth forest. The best waterings are from the rain and the brook with dissolved oxygen in water. Also rain in can also bring nitrogen and other things. The lightning can make the nitrogen available to the rain for the plant.

This year we in the roses forum we tried aerated compost tea with good results. We also worked on nutrient specific compost. Compost has a recipe. We use it on top of the soil so to not disturb the structure and life in the soil.

I like arborist wood chips when I can get them also. The leaves and twigs and needles are just like the forest floor.

Just spent 3 1/2 hour collecting 49 bags of leaves from neighbor ... Thank God they bagged their leaves, I did 7 trips, each trip with 7 bags. It's still easier than getting horse manure. 49 bags today + 35 loads previous weeks = 84 bags, It's still easier than getting free-wood-chips.

Khalid: how tall are your 18" pots ?

Straw, Sam & Vaporvac - You Guys must have lots of fun in your garden. Great job!

I have no idea how I am going to compost my roses here?. I might get some compost ready in the bag + coffie beans + alfalfa. The weather here is still over 80F. I hope I can start composting and replanting in December. It's my first rose "wintering" seson, I can't wait.

Any recommendations how to compost my roses- ( in pots)- in hot California are very welcome !

Anna: It's great exercise getting leaves, I'm less than 5 feet tall, and lifting those 40+ lbs. bags of leaves was better than lifting weight. I did 9 trips today 11/11, with 7 bags per trip, total of 63 bags. Today is the last day of warm weather, it'll dip down to 30 F tonight, or below freezing. Tomorrow it'll be 51 F as warmest temp.

Khalid wrote on composting in hot weather, see his thread below, he will see your question easier if it's posted in his thread:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3528532/npk-and-ph-of-organic-matters?n=149

Wow, Straw - that's a LOT of leaves!!! Lucky you!!!

Carol

Hi Strawchicago! How do you incorporate fallen leaves in your garden. I have tons of leaves in my garden - most of them hauled away by garbage truck but I still have tons in the back yard

Hi Runerat: Glad to hear from you, I started a new thread for November for soil prep & leaves, see below:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4277923/garden-in-nov-and-buy-list-and-rooting-roses-and-soil-prepand-whats-learned

Anna: Sorry, I just missed out your post regarding the height of pots. OK the basic size of the pot is 18". In our working here that means the diameter of the top is 18". Height could be different, depending on the style of the pot. Those that are narrow at the base (classic pot shape) are 21 inches tall. Those that are slightly wider at the base are 17 to 19 inches tall, depending upon the design. Most of them contain the same amount of soil.

Straw and Anna: As you know, in Islamabad we get full two months of monsoon and it rains 24 to 30 inches during that time. Due to frequent rains, minerals are leached out of the pots, specially nitrogen which is most mobile (10) and there is a need to recoup the minerals. Many of my roses show signs of nitrogen and other deficiencies after the monsoon and need replenishment.

That's what I did and gave a winter topping to my roses in pots yesterday. As discussed in my Compost thread (Homemade Compost and Compost Tea), I prepared a winter topping made of chicken manure, cracked corn and seed of sunflower, melons and few other fruits plus a bit of gypsum.

The same topping was given to the roses in ground also. Please do keep in mind that while shifting my roses at this place, I intentionally kept my rose beds holes 3-4 inches below the lawn level. This space has been filled with 5-6 inches layer of dry leaves (which soon compressed down to 3 inches), a bit of chicken manure was sprinkled couple of weeks back (which seeped down the dry leaves and is no more visible on top) and now, the topping of the chicken manure, seeds, cracked corn etc on top of dry leaves but it seems to have gone down again after watering, leaving the dry leaves at the top.

Hope it works.... what do you say Straw?

best regards

Thank you, Khalid for those fantastic pics. of how tall your pots are, and the toppings you added. Really like your layering system with manure on top of dry leaves, then seeds & cracked corn, which will seal in moisture.

Growing roses in pots is MUCH HARDER than growing roses in-ground, and I admire you Khalid, Carol, Anna, Jabubaoski, and Msgirl for growing roses successfully in pots.

Take my kid's 6th-grade science project, growing seeds in pots. She is among the 3 kids in her class of 30 gifted students, who kept their plants alive at the end. I coached her. These kids had to germinate their seeds, then planted in pots in changing weather. For heavy week-long rain, the pots with co-coir and coarse sand came ahead. Then it got dry & hot, and plants died in such pots. Then it got cold & dry, some died in clay pot. Then it got cold & tons of rain, plants died in mostly peatmoss (organic matter).

At the end, only one pot kept tiny plants alive: Miracle-Gro Organic potting soil, which retains moisture (peatmoss), but loamy enough for drainage (pine barks & perlite), plus high in chicken manure. It's easier to change the topping according to the weather, than changing the soil itself:

1. For heavy-spring rain, I elevate the pots on brick, to create faster drainage at bottom. Plus UP the nitrogen topping (a 10 mobility), plus chicken manure for phosphorus, and UP sulfate of potash & lime (both potassium and calcium leach out during rain).
2. For hot-dry summer, I take the pots off the bricks, so they sit against the ground to block water from leaching. I top the pots with wet acidic organic matter (leaves, alfalfa meal, cracked corn) to neutralize alkaline tap. Also use sulfate of potash/gypsum to lower tap-water pH. Some folks even put smaller pot inside a bigger pot for insulation against hot temp. I move the pots to more shade.
3. For cold-dry fall: I move the pots to more sun, plus top with rich black peaty soil or compost (neutral pH) to seal in moisture and get ready for wet fall.
4. For cold & wet fall: I apply chicken manure Coop-Poop NPK 2-4-3 (high phosphorus & high calcium & low nitrogen),

That's so interesting that you say that it's harder to grow roses in pots! I thought it would be easier because I could control more things, but frankly, most of them look better in the ground, even with way less sun.

I find that, too LL, although I never saw blackspot until I put them in the ground. I think they like to spread their roots, literally. Part of my BS problem was probably due to transplanting just prior to torrential rains. Usually rain has helped my newly planted bushes, but too much rain in a short period was very hard on them.

edit: Oops. I forgot Tess had BS in her pot after the deluge, but I put clay on her and it went away and never came back. I put her in the ground temporarily and she started blooming like crazy.

Wow! I feel like I finally got something done for Fall: I started raking my leaves and already filled over half my new compost bin. I'll take a pic tomorrow as it was dark when I finished. I just rake them all onto a tarp, but it's probably over fifty bags worth. I have rotting logs on the bottom. I'll easily fill it tomorrow and then start filling the spot on the lower level. I still have a LOT of leaves.

I'm really sad, though because they're coming to take the old oak tree down tomorrow.

See if you can get some good stuff from the Arborist pruning truck to put on the beds and your new compost.

I am sad for your oak too.

When I was a kid there was this one oak I would climb way up and I could see so far out over. I had to climb a hemlock to get up to the first branch of the oak. The oak was like a lion and king of the forest , guardian at the edge of the woods.

I'm going to ask for as many chips as I can fit in one section of my front yard. I'll shift them around and use as mulch on places I don't want anything growing. I'll put some in the bins and top with manure and then leaves if there's space. Then I'll put the rest in the empty bins come spring. I like the idea that this magnificent tree will still nourish the yard as it's done for 100 years. The squirrels will miss it, too. :(

It's raining so the Oak has another day. I will leave some of it
standing, maybe 40' and take it all down a few years hence if it looks
like it's ready. It's dead on one side, so a heavy wind could topple it
on my house. However, with the limbs removed it's stable. We'll see what
happens when they get into it. In any case, I have a humongous dead
limb directly over my roof, so I'm not sad from that point of view.

Here's my leaves from today:

They're taking the limbs off the oak today. I'm really bummed, but relieved not to have to worry about its limbs falling on my roof and destroying the house. They said they'd never seen such a rotting limb. I'll post pics of the limbs on the ground and the chips I'm having them leave for mulch.

Wow that's a great oak. Very nice pictures. Thanks for showing us. I was hoping to see those pictures. Oak trees are my favorite. Cedar is my second favorite kind of tree.

Thank you Sam. It was around 120' tall and is now about 35'-40'. Here's the first pile of chips ready to be spread: and entire truckload. They also left some large bits to cut into solid chopping boards and a big chopping block. They're cutting this one that I may use as a live-edge table "someday".

That's a huge pile of wood chips. An entire truck load! I am so jealous of that. That is a great Christmas gift. There's a lot of ways to use that in the garden and the compost . I am sure it will be a great help to make your soil better over time.

Wow 120 feet tall! What a great tree. Are you able to count the rings on the Tree?

I didn't think to do that, but I imagine it's about the same age as the house: 100 yrs old. Its twin is on the other side of the walkway by the new compost pile and is probably feeling surprised right now and wondering its fate. There was also a massive elm that died a long time ago, but I think they grow bigger. One limb heated the house for two years. That's the wood compost I now use. We cut that ourselves and couldn't move the pieces they were so heavy. By the driveway is another huge liquidambar (sweet gum) that was planted in the teens or twenties for Arbor Day. They were giving them out for planting and the original owners' kids planted them. Now I park my car under its shade, but worry about limbs falling. They look small far away, but are really heavy. There are quite a few of these beauties in the neighborhood from that time.

The original landscapers and builders really thought about shading the house in summer and solar gain in the winter. They chose unusual species and natives as well. Such forethought is generally unheard of today, but it wouldn't be that difficult or expensive to incorporate these ideas that worked so well. I'll need to replace the awnings now that the tree won't shade the front rooms.