Well, Ron, I cannot get as excited about preserving what's there as you and the wife. It looks like much of the patio is in pretty bad shape. Maybe some excitement is warranted by the fact that you have some reusable materials ... the brick. I don't know about the concrete however. First, you'll need to explore exactly what it is. Are these poured in place or manufactured pieces? Are they uniform thickness? You'll need to dig some up and examine them.

In order to fix the patio, you'll need to pull the whole thing up, create a proper base (it looks like it was just laid on dirt or shallow sand with no base) and reset the brick. I suspect that the concrete is not going to be uniform (or match the brick thickness) and will be next to impossible to relay. That it is broken and cracked adds more doubt. Do you need a low retaining wall in any part of the yard? The broken concrete might be more suitable for that.

I'm guessing you don't have brick mortaring skills in which case it is not going to be practical to mortar the brick into a solid slab. It's more likely that you will reset it as brick on sand (with a tamped, granular base below the sand, of course.)

You did not include pictures showing how the patio relates to the house, but establishing a proper grade and drainage will be important so that you don't end up with rain water running where it shouldn't.

What you are talking about is doable. It is just going to take a lot of time. So no professional is going to take it seriously because to pay someone just isn't going to be at all reasonable.

If I were doing this (and yes, I would do this) I'd start by pulling up a test brick or two and seeing how hard it is to get the mortar off the brick. I'd also see if there are extra bricks laying around. Some of the existing bricks look too broken to reuse, and some will not survive being cleaned up. I'd pull up a section at a time, put down a patio base layer, then relay it to be even with the concrete. The end result isn't going to be perfectly level (or anywhere near it), and will probably have to be redone in places. If you don't like the results, pull it up and redo it. The only thing it costs is time.

Hi guys,

Yardvaark you're confirming what I suspected was the case. In fact I told my wife as much the other day.

Ive never done anything like this but I've been doing a lot of reading on walkways and such. So I'm familiar with the basic structure, all the layers and that kind of thing.

Mad, I'd definitely want to do this myself and I don't mind the time at all. Based on what I've read I knew I'd probably have to pull it all up, level it out, etc.

My wife really loves the way it looks, and I do too. But I do think I can produce something just as nice.

I did pull up a couple of the bricks and they came up easily. In fact I didn't see much mortar at all if any. It looks like some of them closer to the center may have a thin layer of cement on them,

As far as cleaning them up, I don't think I'd worry about that too much, as leaving some of that stuff on them might retain some of that old weathered charm.

Also Yardvaark, this isn't connected to the house. It's in the back corner of the yard bordered by the back fence and the side fence. So I don't think it needs to be perfectly level, but I don't know about the sloping thing.

I appreciate the feedback so far. Looks like we've confirmed I have to pull it up and re-do it!

Gardengal I LOVE the idea about repurposing the cement that way! The example you shared is beautiful.

I was wondering how I could pull it all up and re-lay it while maybe retaining the basic design. The broken cement would be a perfect way to accomplish that and something I could do pretty easily.

And you're right about that cement border. It can't be used. Any suggestions on what I use in its' place?

You want to use a flexible rigid edging intended for pavers that you implant/nail into the ground. Generally these have a flange on the bottom for that purpose. Should be available at local stoneyards or landscape supply outlets....not necessarily at the box stores.

I know exactly what you're talking about and in fact I have seen it at Home Depot. Cool, I'm getting excited about this!

Go for it!! And be sure to come back and post photos of the finished product!!

I absolutely will guys. I'm so happy to have found this community and even better, found it ACTIVE. Fast, friendly helpful responses.

My wife and I just got married in July. Here's a picture from our wedding day. She already had a 90 year old pier and beam house so I moved in with her.

Neither she or the house has been loved and cared for properly in years, so my goal is to do just that. I'm an expert on loving her, but this house is another story. So you all will be seeing a lot of me and I look forward to getting to know you all.

Thanks again!

Ron

By no means am I an expert. But for what its worth, I've just finished doing what you are planning to do - In my case, I was able to break my large patio into four sections and I worked on one section at a time. I took detailed photos of the patio bricks (mine were pavers) that I intended to remove prior to removing them. Just so that if I got mixed up when replacing, I had pictures to help show me how to put things back together.

Then, when I removed them, I walked each brick individually over to a holding area where I laid each brick in the exact same position as it had been in the original patio. So I essentially laid out a new patio on the grass beside my existing patio. It was very time consuming, but do-able. I then removed by hand trowel all of the existing dirt and weeds, etc. Cleaned up the area, and then started to prepare the new base with some new crushed gravel. Added the bricks/pavers back in place. Added sand. Rented a tamper and finished the job.

In my case, my patio is only 20 years old, and it was laid well. So structurally it was in better shape than yours. And, I didn't have to deal with the concrete portions as you will. But if you're willing to do the labour yourself, I would at least give it a try and see what you can come up with. Good luck.

Wow, that is a LOT like my situation Daylilly! So let me ask you, did you do it as the experts advise; tamp down the dirt, add a layer of base, then leveling sand and finally the pavers?

I ask because some people say you don't really need the base level. Also, how long did the project take you? How much did it cost you to rent the machine?

Hi there. Well, my patio is only 20 years old. The base is well tamped down and for the most part, quite level. But when I removed the pavers, the sand in-between and the forest of weeds that were growning around and underneath the pavers, inevitably, some of the crushed gravel in the base was removed. As well, just by pulling out the extensive weeds (we aren't allowed to use herbicides to kill them as you are in the U.S.) the base was somewhat less compacted.

So, then I added a fine layer of crushed gravel, but I didn't tamp at that point because things were still in pretty good shape (whereas you do have a lot of caving and I don't know if you get frost heaving). I then restored the pavers, and then added sand in the joints, tamped, added more sand, tamped again, etc. The end result looks like new.

I am no expert - I just decided to tackle the project one day on a whim! But where I am in Canada because of frost thaws and such, I would think you'd need a proper base level. If your stones are just sitting on dirt, then I'd imagine you'd get sinking and heaving. Its hard to tell from your pictures, but because of all the sinking, it looks to me like there is no proper base.

I did my project in sections but my patio is much larger and has a few walkways as well. For each section I worked on it for about 2-3 days to remove the stones and debris and then maybe another 1-2 days to add an additional light layer of gravel (to make up for what had been removed when I pulled weeds out) and level as best I could and re-install the pavers. Lastly, the tamping and adding sand in between the joints took about 2 hours. I didn't tamp before re-installing the pavers as the final tamping afterwards seemed to do the job for me, but keep in mind that my base was well in place.

In my case, I rented the machine a few different times as I did things in sections. But to rent the machine for 4 hours was about $30 Canadian so maybe $24 USD. Can't remember the cost of the bags of sand and gravel, but overall, I don't think we spent a lot of money on restoring the patio - maybe $200-$400, but my patio is much larger.

So my experience would be different from yours in that my base is there and is in good shape. It looks like yours is not. If you decided to fore-go doing a proper base, it wouldn't be any worse than what you already have - and it might look good for a few years and eventually start to heave and/or cave in. Keep in mind - the other people on this forum are experienced professionals so I'd listen to their advice first before listening to me!. I was just chiming into the discussion because I just happened to have just finished doing a similar project. Beautiful wedding pictures by the way!

I want to clarify that earlier I was talking about relaying brick as one would typically lay it on sand for a patio. I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to combine the concrete pieces with brick using this method where paving elements abut one another, without spaces and the paving is tamped into the sand in order to have a smooth, tight, walkable surface. One could not tamp those larger concrete pieces with this method. I see from the picture you linked, Gardengal, that you are essentially recommending, or offering, a different method of installation where all paving pieces, brick and concrete are installed as one would install flagstone, with gravel (or soil) surrounding each piece. No doubt the concrete pieces would work fine with this method, but the results are very different, the main one being that in the former, the patio is more like a regular floor, smooth and clean. In the latter, the surface has loose bits of small gravel that never seem to go away. It is not the kind of surface one drags furniture across or roughhouses on. But it does have a certain charm. The regular hard patio floor is more durable overall.

I also want to mention, Ron, that the patio would have a mild slope to it in order to drain properly. The slope would likely be in concert with the surrounding grade.

[Good thing ... everyone looks happy in your wedding day photo!]

Hi Yardvaark,

I appreciate your expertise on this. I definitely get what you're saying.

I was out there taking a closer look last night and I noticed that the bricks were used to form a border around the edges of the cement strips.

I was thinking of perhaps doing something similar with the broken pieces. I don't know that I want to recreate all the strips there now, but I was thinking about creating one big feature with them; a smaller rectangle within the larger one, or a border of some kind. Then use bricks to form a border around the feature.

Could that maybe help me even out any variations in thickness between the two mediums?

And fwiw I wasn't planning on using any kind of gravel between the bricks and pieces. It moves out of place too much. My plan was to use the joint sand for a smoother surface then seal everything. Let me know your thoughts.

The sand would work fine. And my photo example was a bit extreme in the placement - for a patio surface, I would space everything much more tightly for the reasons Yard suggested. I included it only to illustrate the effect of mixing the materials or treating the broken concrete like you would natural flagstone.

btw, if the patio is to be constructed at a distance from the structure and it is fully pervious to water (no solid slabs of concrete and no mortar between the joints), then any sloping becomes much less of an issue, especially with a well-prepared base.

That's what I was thinking Gardengal, regarding drainage and sloping. Great stuff you guys are giving me, I really appreciate it.

Love your wedding picture! I think this could be a fun project and when finished, I hope you will show us pictures of the final patio!

Got an update for you guys. I decided to go out and pull up a few bricks to get a better feel of what I'm working with.

Apparently there is in fact some mortar there. Or cement or something. Several of the bricks were coming up easily and individually.

But a few were stuck together with this mortar, as you can see in the pictures. I dug down a couple of feet or so and all I came up with was lots of sand.

Here are a few shots. Lots of the bricks seem to have a thin layer of cement on top of them too. Tell me your thoughts.

Oh, that's gonna be "fun."

I wouldn't worry about the cement on top of the bricks. If the mortar comes off fairly cleanly with a chisel, it can work. Since some of the mortar has decided on its own to comes loose, there is a good chance it will. My edging brick is from an inside planter in my neighbor's house. Most of the mortar comes right off with a sharp hammer tap on a chisel.

Is sandy soil normal in you area? I've only seen it a couple of times, and have no idea how it works in real life. Here, with a heavy, rocky soil, you don't seem to need a lot of underlay. A couple of inches of sand works. However, if you start digging holes, you need to take compaction a lot more seriously. The part of the brick path I dug up to replace the downspout lead pipe still has a serious depression because I had to put it back that night, and haven't gotten around to relaying it yet. It is perfectly functional, just not right.

Hey Mad Gal, actually sandy soil isn't normal here. It's mostly clay soil in Dallas. So I guess all this soul was brought in. Who knows how long this has been here or if it was built in 1925 when the home was built.

im guessing I should start by tamping all that sand down then putting a gravel base layer on top and going from there with another layer of leveling sand?

Yardvaark, my thoughts exactly when I saw it.

Normally, you would begin with excavation of the area. After excavating, the sub-base (bare excavation) is tamped. Then a 4" or greater layer of gravel (the base) is added and tamped. Then the 1" setting sand layer which is not tamped. Finally, the bricks, which are tamped.

Right right Yardvaark, but that's usually the procedure when you're breaking new ground; i.e a space where grass is currently growing and now you want to install a patio.

This isnt exactly the normal scenario as there's already a patio there, and there's sand under everything. Lots of it.

I was expecting to see some clay dirt under the sand but I never saw anything but sand. Could be I didn't dig deep enough but I thought I went at least a foot or more.

The problem with plain sand is that it doesn't compact very well, the sand layer is used to allow the pavers/bricks to level with each other when sitting on a foundation of well compacted base. So if you didn't have a good base when the patio was built the first time you aren't going to have a good base if you just rebuild on top of it. That is when excavating and compacting a base still applies to an existing patio. People living in warm dry climates like CA don't have to worry about compaction as much as people in wetter or colder climates where excessive rain and freezing can do a number on poorly laid pavers/bricks. It's a pretty big area and it sounds like you are willing to do a great job instead of quick and poor job. Putting in a good compacted base will pay dividends in keeping all of the hard work you're going to do in good shape for years.

Thanks guys. Let me be clear, I'm all about putting down a base. I've done my research and I know how important it is, so I'm not trying to get out of that step, lol!

Im just confused about what to do with the sand that's there now. We're not talking a couple of inches then bare earth. I never found the earth!

When i dug a hole last night sand was all I could find and I'm pretty sure I dug at least a foot deep.

I could certainly dig down a few inches, tamp down as much as possible then put down a base and tamp again.

But based on what I saw yesterday the sand goes a long way down and I don't think I could excavate that whole thing that deep.

I'm going to try digging down again this weekend and report back to you guys.

I live in Florida where everything, including buildings are built on sand. It is not going to be a problem. Because the existing sand cannot escape sideways, it will compress tightly. You are going to excavate the normal amount -- 7" or 8", compact the excavation and then add the base on top of that and compact it. As long as you compact the sub-base and the base tightly, it's going to be fine.

If you over-excavate, it's going to cost you in extra material and the work to place it.

Cool, that's the path I was thinking of taking Yardvaark. That settles that then! I'll post a new comment when I have something new to show you all.

Here the scheme is shown graphically. I reiterate, the only layer NOT tamped when installed is the sand setting bed. It gets tamped at the same time as the brick.

BTW, I don't know if you've thought about pattern, but running bond is probably going to be your best bet. Some bricks are sized and shaped to be used in conjunction with a mortar joint and those will not work out in many patterns without that mortar joint spacing. You may have some of those, or you may have a mixture of slightly different sizes, which makes keeping some patterns consistent, impossible. (In that case, the pattern would start "drifting" and becoming cattywampus (however that is spelled!) Running bond will work with all brick as long as each row is comprised of like-width bricks. Exactly how you're going to combine concrete or concrete pieces along with the brick, using such an installation system, remains a mystery to me. It would be easier to set them separately -- along the lines of what Gardengal has suggested -- as one would set flagstone. I could see a scheme where you use the typical brick-patio-on-sand method as described above, and concrete pieces installed as one would install flagstone, placed separately but adjacent to one another. Doing that would require advance planning so one would definitely want to PLAN this out on a piece of paper, measured to scale, prior to starting any work.

Hey Yardvaark, I remembered what you said about the difficulty of using the two mediums together and keeping everything level. What you describe is what I had in mind. I want to have the bricks around the outside of the rectangle and then maybe a smaller rectangular strip running down the middle where the concrete pavers are. I'll outline that with bricks. I'm thinking (hoping) that will make it easier to get the two different heights level enough to work for our purposes.

I completely understand the scheme and what gets tamped vs. what doesn't. The only thing I was confused about in this particular case was all the sand there now and the fact that I couldn't really find bare earth. But you cleared that up for me so I now I know how to proceed there.

Thanks so much for the info on the brick pattern! You're right, there are bricks of different sizes because many of them were actually broken on purpose to use along the border, it seems. Others have just broken during the settling. I'll look up that pattern you mentioned. It's great to have a name to look for and to already know which one will work best for this. Thanks so much!