Whats In a Name,

You must live near me in central NJ. I know iceman very well. He installed my Carrier equipment and I continue to use him to do maintenance. His sizes are based on a real load calculation. Your other quotes are based on guesses.

I would highly recommend working with iceman. If the funds are available I would upgrade to a Performance model. Knowing how iceman works he probably gave you a spreadsheet of models to choose from.

You are right. We just don't use the air conditioning that much to warrant for a $1k cost differential. But I will definitely keep your advice in mind.

UPDATE- Costco installer, came down in price when I sent him Homedepot quote. Agreed do it at 5780 for 14ACXS036-230A** and CBX25UHV-042-230-* combination.

tiger/austin, do you guys have any comment?

What size are you replacing?....How do you heat and with which fuel?....sizing all over the place...the Lennox models quoted are low end South of the Border POJ....I wouldn't have it....Trane condenser models quoted are good but sizing questionable along with air handler models....I agree with Mike about upgrading from the Comfort Series to Carrier Performance series. On air handlers, I would want var speed model or at very least model with high eff blower motor.

Cost is subjective and the choice among brands should be decided upon based on your goals in what options the equipment comes with. Proper Installation or the lack thereof can and does effect quite a bit.

The last thing you want is to choose an installing contractor that is hard to get ahold of for scheduling service or the lack of availability when you want it. If from the service aspect it's hard now it will only get worse. You should be comfortable with whomever you choose, this company (that you choose) should be the one you entrust to repair the machine if something goes wrong down the road, which also means they should be competent enough to repair the system they are installing.

The internet is littered with complaints of all brands: Proper installation and know how is key to avoid serious HVAC installation problems. ( I install all of the equipment I sell which is of no use to you because I don't live near you... but this is the most important part of the job. HVAC contractors don't just go to a home and plug a system in, it is highly technical and requires skill to be done properly.)

1. Manufacture warranty. Length, replacement coverage? conditions, etc. This isn't to suggest you will need it. It is better to have a good equipment warranty and not need it.

2. Equipment options: efficiency ratings, humidity control functions if that is important to you, filtration, noise, control of the system.

3. Repair part availability. Is the system made in the USA? Is the compressor made in the USA? The reason I say this is the hassle factor if your system goes down it is most likely to occur during a heat wave. If the system and / or compressor is not made in USA you 'may' have to wait upwards of a couple of weeks to get repair parts. It is expensive for distributors to sit on repair parts they may never need, when the unit / compressor is manufactured in Mexico / China this spells long waits and or additional freight cost to repair your system. Freight is not covered by any warranty.

Manual J heat load calculation: This is a tool that can be easily manipulated and misused. It's one thing to do a manual J on new construction when you know what the insulation ratings are. Doing these on an existing home is more often an 'educated guess'. The reason is that insulation values and tightness of the home change over time. Homes built today are sealed tighter than homes built 10 years ago and homes built 10 years ago are tighter than homes built 10 years prior to that.

Insulation values change over time. These values affect the load on the house. It's not saying you shouldn't have a manual J and use it, but just realize it's a tool and if misused (miscalculated) it's no better than someone who just guessed at it.

I've seen manual J calculations oversize systems by 1 ton or more. It's far easier to correct problems on a system that is undersized than oversized. Oversized equipment would have to be replaced.

Your current system will give you clues. You have operating costs. If operating costs are excessive for the SEER rating of your current system this almost always points to improper sizing. (notice I didn't say that your current system doesn't cool properly- it's old and that is a characteristic of old equipment not necessarily a sizing issue.)

Tiger and austin- our current system is a joke. 4 ton behemoth for a 1600sqft ranch. Not sure who did the install almost 25 years ago.

Our heating source is natural gas through baseboard heating.

Does Lenox makes inherently bad products? Does the Elite series any better that meritt series? All three bigbix retailers go with Lenox here.

In terms of installer reputation, all of these quotes came from hvac contractors who have very good reputation online.

Ok, with the sizing issue you supplied above I would call around and get some more opinions and be willing to pay for a manual J heat load calculation. (ask for it up front.)

Sometimes online reputations can be misleading or faked it really depends on how the reviews are accepted. They could be real just as easily as they could be fake. People that don't have a complaint 'typically' do not post reviews.

It's always a struggle for me to get reviews, even when there are no complaints. (My ratings of those that do review me are high --- 4.9 stars out of 5 --- but this doesn't suggest it's easy for me to get a review, because they have to be tracked and verified and people are skeptical and some do not want to be tracked. It's a vicious cycle to say the least.)

Realize this sizing issue you state may need to have the duct system replaced as well which will cost more.

Does Lennox make inherently bad products: They are made in Mexico. Like all things your mileage may vary.

I am not worried about made in mexico tag; remember all iPhone/pad/mac are made in China. Carrier is going south as well along with Ford. As for reputation of a dealer, its a 50-50 game looking at reviews at Angies list/Yelp and Google. At times I can see a pattern for glowing reviews which indicates fakery.

Angie's list is a 'paid' site. This means that if a company has reviews on that site and you can see them, the company is paying money to Angie's list in the way of 'advertising' so to speak. It's a weird set up to say the least. But Angie had to do it because they continue to lose money. While the reviews are probably real, the company may have option of deleting and or controlling certain reviews that cast company in poor light. You wouldn't keep paying Angie every month if the reviews didn't generate more income to keep paying Angie. Would you?

Yelp is worse anyone can post a review, even a non-customer. No tracking or authentication at all.

Google same thing... no authentication, reviews easily faked.

an Iphone is made in china: An Iphone has a product life of 2 years at best. An air conditioner is a 15 year product life. (national average) --- not a fair fight or comparison.

When it comes to HVAC you can't rely on people's reviews or recommendations. Most homeowners don't know what is the proper way to size and install HVAC equipment. These are the things that have to done correctly for long term reliability.

I don't care to get into the China and Mexico debate. Just want to say we have an iPhone 4s in the family that is almost 5 years old. It gets heavy use everyday and it still works.

Iphone 4s was introduced October 14, 2011.

let us know if you have problems with it if Apple will come to your home to fix it?

#just so you see how silly this comparison is....

Now I'm going to the grocery store to compare bananas and oranges.

No I go to the Apple store if a repair is needed. I find it more convenient to walk in the store and have them fix my problem on my schedule rather than waiting for a repairman to show up at my house. I am not sure how this relates to where the device is made.

In the past several years it seems I have had to do fewer iPhone repairs than HVAC equipment repairs. I agree it is a bananas and oranges comparison. I was trying to make a point iPhones made in China have proven to be reliable.

Don't believe iPhones and HVAC a good comparison or the fact that iPhones are made in China...I suspect Apple has good QC....some would have thought Samsung did too both design, components, and manufacturing....how did that work out....

Coming back to the point of quotes- is there a strong reason behind opting for a Carrier base aka Comfort-16 vs a Lennox Elite system? The two system I shortlisted have about $700 dollar difference in pricing. Both will be installed by independent installers, not the box box ones. Below are the models.

Comfort-16 ......24ABC6-36-3.... FV4BNF003

Lennox Elite....XC14-030-230.... CBX27UH-036-230

Brand name means little. What kind of options or features are you looking for?

plain Jane: single speed 13 SEER? (north area only - south is 14 SEER minimum)

heat pump? furnace?

Humidity functions?

2 speed equipment / better comfort / quieter equipment.

Warranty coverage of the equipment?

If you are looking at 13/14 SEER equipment brand really matters not one bit, single speeds above this aren't much better. 2 speed equipment is much better (when installed properly)

You are buying this for comfort right? How long do you plan to stay in this home?

looks like two different condenser sizes...3 ton on Carrier, 2 1/2 ton on Lennox....Carrier has var speed air handler, Lennox has high eff blower motor air handler...I prefer the Carrier but suggest upgrade to the Performance series and add Carrier Edge Thermidistat. On the Carrier, you want the 005L VS air handler size.

9170110 ActiveSystems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING COMFORT 16 AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ABC636A*030* FV4CN(B,F)005L 1050 34200 13.00 16.00 1RCU-A-CB Southeast and North 259Yes

IMO

If the load calculation by the Carrier dealer says you need a 3 ton condenser then that is what you should get. The duct work is in the attic which causes a lot of duct losses. If you really like the Lennox dealer and equipment, then get a quote for a 3 ton condenser.

The Carrier equipment would qualify for the NJ Cool Advantage rebate of $300 (16 SEER, 13 EER). But it requires a load calculation is submitted with the application. You won't have that with the Lennox dealer. So it would be a $400 difference and you are getting a properly sized condenser if you go with the Carrier.

Mike,

Thanks for pointing that out. Lennox dealer said that final price include the PSEG rebate. I will ask them about manual J calculation.

I am referring the the NJ Clean Energy program Cool advantage rebate. Here is the link.

If you read towards the middle of the page under the heading Important, it states a Manual J calculation must be submitted. The PSE&G is an additional rebate.

PSE&G rebate

Mike, my impression is, they are the same rebate we are talking about.

I would say iceman-2, considering mike has used him and recommends, and you get higher seer for like 200 bucks. Installation is the largest factor, you want someone that knows what they are doing.

If you are going to get independent heat load/loss calcs done, you might want to get an energy rater in for a complete evaluation of your home. There may be programs that will pay for all or part of the cost.

Several years ago when I was shopping for equipment, one contractor said the rebate was "too much paper work".

Actually, dealers usually have to kick in some of the rebate. That's probably why it was "too much work".

I believe the NJ Cool Advantage program is funded by tax payer dollars. Occasionally the rebate is suspended when the fund runs out of money. For some reason the NJ Warm Advantage rebate for heating equipment does not require a Manual J calculation. The "too much paper work" guy had no problems filling out the form for that rebate.

Manufacturer's rebates are usually half funded by the dealer. For this reason some dealers decline to participate.