I can't help on the Holly because it's not a plant I know first hand and I've never encountered overhead power lines but I'm wondering why you consider planting in the rain 'not ideal'. Unless you have heavy clay which shouldn't be trampled when very wet I consider a rainy day to be excellent for planting. It doesn't mean you don't have to water thoroughly but it does ease the stress on the foliage by keeping it cool and moist. The soil should also be nice and damp to help the plant get over the transition. The only drawback of rain I can see is that the planter might skimp the job if they have water trickling down their neck ;-)

The soil consists of layers and patches of clay and sand. I was always told walking on wet soil "destroyed the soil structure". Ilex opaca is pretty similar to English Holly but more cold hardy and less shiny...maybe less dense and slightly taller. Oh, zone 6...soil can freeze any time between November and late January in this spot.

Everything sounds spot on, Ed. Plant away.

Dax

soil compaction is a variable .. but not one i would worry about in fall ...nor in a tree line ...

if you spent days priming a flower or veg bed ...double digging or tilling.. adding compost or peat .. etc ;... why detroy all that work ... by walking around in it. if you can avoid it ... you worked hard to make it friable ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=friable&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

in my soil freeze area.. spring thaw also fluffs the soil ... so that is another time.. when you should avoid tromping in a garden bed ...

in fall .. after a long summer.. the soil is probably already self compacted .... and i would suggest its better to get done what need be done.. rahter than worry about this variable ....

as far as moist soil.. and transplanting. i used to do all my planting in rain... if i could ...

ed.. every fall you get into this .. i only have time to visit periodically ... and i have so much to plant ... JUST DO IT .... i would suggest .. with cool days.. cooler nights.. nature is very forgiving.. and extra month of root growth ... is well worth getting it done.. asap ..

now.. if it involved a backhoe.. or you weighing as much as a backhoe .. then there is some real soil compaction issues ... but you provide no history of such .. i rather picture you as a beanpole type of guy ... lol ...

in my MI ... by the end of october ... you can plant.. but it is just going to sit there in suspended animation until spring thaw ... due to falling temps ... soil temps.. not air ...

so an extra month of some root growth.. will speed eventual establishment..and in my opinion.. that is never bad ...

to repeat.. JUST GET IT DONE ...

ken

oh.. holly.. i dont do them ... so no opinion .. i was not even aware.. they can get to powerline height.. but im not interested enough to google it all up this morning ...

who knew... lol .. do they really grow in in pine tree shape?? ... what the annual vertical growth rate????

https://www.google.com/search?q=(ilex+opaca&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6qcem1LTPAhULGR4KHe7gD6gQ_AUICSgC&biw=950&bih=745&dpr=0.9

ken

About planting in the rain........as others have mentioned, it is an almost ideal situation for the plants concerned. Issues about soil compaction and altering the soil structure come about when you are dealing with water-saturated soil, something that would come about after multiple days of steady rainfall. But just a light rain or only a day or two of rain prior to planting is of little concern to the soil condition.

If one were to avoid planting in the rain, gardening here in the PNW would be limited to a short window of midJune to early October!! And it is not - we garden pretty much year round :-) However, often in February and March rainfall is pretty steady here and it IS advised to wait until the soil has dried a few days before seriously working. And this is more with regards to tilling and amending rather than just planting!!

And ken, yes hollies - some species - can get to be quite large trees. I am not that familiar with American holly (not that popular or available in my area) but English holly here can get very large.....as much as 50'. And they do grow in a very conical habit, much like many conifers.

I'm not a bean pole guy, but I way a little less then a back hoe. We've had several days of off and on rain after a loony drought. Wasn't aware holly grow in pine tree shape...how did that come up? Yes, American Holly is comparable I size to English Holly and can get tall enough to interfere with power lines...but I figure that will take a loong time.

most of my Fall planting season survived, including (surprisingly) the root bound clearance Blue Spruce. The clearance redbud and Sassafras didn't, though...

It may not take as long as you think. Our first house was in a 35 years old development. Across the street was an absolutely amazing female holly tree. It was definitely tall enough to interfere with wires, if there had been any, and unlikely to be older than the houses.

at the link i gave.. many were in xmas tree shape .. i guess i was asking if that was natural ...

my link above is wonky.. will try again.. ken

https://www.google.com/search?q=ilex+opaca&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfh-CbtLXPAhWDFR4KHVKGCsoQ_AUICSgC&biw=950&bih=745&dpr=0.9

American Holly is frequently butchered by the power co here, why not about 20ft? Christmas tree shape is normal. Planting in the rain is fine if you are willing to do it.

I was going for 10-13 feet because I wanted to continue the neighbor's tree line, and I wanted the trees to be sufficiently far from the pines I planted 30 feet from the road. But if 13 feet is too close, I suppose I'll have to plant them closer to the pines.

Yes, because you will regret it if you plant near powerlines. I have seen them cut almost exactly in half by those baboons.... I mean trimmers (LOL).

I agree, Mike. It is inappropriate to blame the contractors or employees of the power companies. Their job is to maintain the line clearance so that YOU, Logan, have uninterrupted electricity. The public can be educated but it takes a long time and a lot of repeated information. Good for edincolm for thinking ahead.

Ken, many of the hollies shown in your Google images link have been repeatedly shaped, much like they do at a Xmas tree farm. They do have a natural pyramidal form but will never be so tight and perfect without shearing.

They don't grow in a pine tree shape, which tend have a broad head....they are more conical than pines.

Ilex opaca are so lovely and can even achieve a stately quality. Edincolm, do you need the 'holly sex' talk, or are you up on all of that?

Ed, you have been visiting the MA Cape area for a few years and never paid any attention to the plantings of Ilex opaca which grow in great abundance on properties throughout the Cape and Islands? Really? Do not plant your holly near the power lines! Hopefully your property under discussion is located near East Falmouth, MA. If so, put on your hiking boots and visit Ashumet Holly Reservation now overseen by the MA Audubon Society. This beautiful property was formerly owned by Wilfred Wheeler, a famous hybridizer of Ilex opaca. Lots of history and stories about his holly introductions. At Ashumet you will find very mature hollies which will help you to understand their growth characteristics.

Rhizo, no need to give Ed the holly 'sex' talk. There is so much of it growing in that area. No need to worry about fertilization.

Hi, Nandina!

At least you are planting something that can be trimmed and if necessary, completely regenerated by cutting it severely. What really looks awful is when people plant white pines under power lines, and they get the awkward "giant bonsai that isn't" treatment. You commonly saw this in places like Great Falls, Oakton, Herndon/Dranesville, VA, and when I go back to those areas where I remember some planted I see that eventually, because the trees are so hacked over the years - and storm damaged by wet snows they aren't accustomed to - they eventually completely fail. Many have already probably been cut down for good. White Pine was almost certainly the most frequently planted screening conifer in the DC suburbs during the Cold War period of rapid growth. Which is of course an indictment of the make-a-quick-buck nursery industry...and the typical surburbanite's ignorance of horticulture.

As for English holly being smaller - though this is somewhat true, the main reason they are smaller on the east coast is our climate dwarfs them. Hybrid vigor seems to help the Highclere hollies outgrow such issues, and there are some pretty big ones at the Scott Arboretum.

rhizo_1 (North AL) zone When a blue boy" meets a "blue girl" he loves very much...

Seriously..I agonized over whether to get a boy or get two girls who would match and hope there was holly in the neighborhood. Ultimately decided on the latter. There isn't a lot of holly in the area, but I discovered the neighbor's across the street have American Holly in the back yard. If these two holly do well I'll get them a boyfriend and stick it in the back yard, not sure how close they have to be,

nandina(8b) Oddly, no. I rarely cross the scary tbridge to the cape itself. I rarely see mature holly.

davidrt28 (zone 7) That was my thought. I planted pitch pine 30 feet from the road. I wanted to continue the neighbor's tree line to get an""allee" effect but the trees were closer the I wanted aine. Pine look goofy when trimmed,. I figured holly would take longer to be a problem and take better to pruning...

http://www.pepco.com/uploadedFiles/wwwpepcocom/Pepco-VM1.pdf This might be helpful. I tried to upload this same picture from my utility company, but it said you couldn't look at it????

That's a good brochure, Sherry. I've worked with Tree Line USA, in association with several utility companies and their training programs.

Part of the problem is that proper utility pruning is not something that is visually appealing. But, those techniques protect our trees as well as the power lines. The multidimensional benefits of trees are extremely important and trained utilty company personnel don't merit the criticism meted out by the uninformed.

Especially when the critics are in middle school!

It isn't just aesthetically displeasing, in most cases it is also bad
for the tree. My crepe myrtle was nowhere near the power lines (ok, one
flower was touching them) when it was cut in half WHILE IN BLOOM. It is
typically (azaleas are an exception) bad to prune a plant while in
bloom. So do you agree with this job that the primates (to use the
friendly term) have done? Have any of you ever seen a crepe myrtle fall
on a structure?

Rhizo: you ask me to back up what I say with proof, PROVE that I am in middle school. Until then (which will never happen) nobody is going to believe you.

Logan, that is the WRONG crepe myrtle for that spot. It is the original full size not one of the new dwarfs. Yes you can prune anytime, you can't hurt it. You can cut it to the ground and it will come back up in spades.

Move mouse over name. Logan L. Johnson. It will highlight green. Right click. Takes you to profile. You may not be in middle school, but not much older. If you would keep to what you know and not try to spout off about areas of the world you don't live in and plants you don't grow we would like to hear from you.

FYI My nephew is one of those fools that has to go up the power pole in all kinds of weather all over the South to fix the lines when irresponsible planting brings the power lines down. Sometimes some of them die just so you can have power. So no they trim what they have to. Years ago, no one realized how bad it was to plant the wrong tree, so now we have to trim to fix. Now we have selections that are right for under the lines.

I'm not really comfortable offering opinions on the pruning skills of utility companies in parts of the country I have never been,. It's my experience that the skill of the pruners used by utility companies in different parts of the country vary wildly. Whoever the utility companies near my parents use are decent. It would surprise me not at all if other companies use less skilled people. ( or more likely force them to meet unreasonable deadlines that force them to do rush jobs).

I'll have to look at that brochure when I'm at a more powerful computer. In the past I've found unity company brochures so over cautious as to be useless. There would be literally no trees in my city if people followed those guidelines. The newer neighborhoods where these guidelines are followed are wretched places in the summer. The utility company gets the flack if a branch knocks down a power line but don't get the benefits of the trees. If your energy costs go up because of lack of shade that is even better for them.

I am sorry if it is confusing, but the brochure is put out by the "National Arbor Day Foundation". It was just that the best view of it was on a utility company website.

Anyway, Logan was the only one who offered a estimate for how far from the road an American Holly should be. Others are questioning his expertise? Anyone else care to offer a number?

How far from the road is irrelevant. That makes it a trick question. Power lines can vary enormously in how far they are from the road. I've been places where they run through the backyards instead of next to the road.

So, how far are the power lines from the road.

How far are the pines from the road (or the power lines)

Right now I am getting the idea there isn't enough room between the pines and the power lines for something that is going to get fairly large.

American holly has captivated plant lovers since the days of the Pilgrims. ... The American hollygrows to a height of 40–50' and a spread of 18–40' at maturity. ... This tree grows at a slow to medium rate, with height increases of anywhere from less than 12" to 24" per year.

American Holly grows to 40 ft (or more) in height meaning it should be at least 20 ft from the POWER LINE. Anything 25 foot or less can be close or under the power line.

This one is probably 40 ft tall and probably 50 years old or more. Maybe 30 ft wide?

Pine are 30-35 feet from the road. I was going for staggered rows with the front row being holly. Distance from the road is easier to measure and plan then distance from the powerlines. One neighbor has a row of Norway Maple 10 feet from the road and the other has a cluster of river birch. The trees are replacing a row of black pine that once lined the road. Honestly, if 40 years from now I have a result like Logan's "butchered" crepe myrtle I'd count that as a win.

The trimmers that are hired by the power company have a set of guidelines of how they must trim the tree. They are not there to make it pretty. They must get the limbs so many feet from the power line. If they have to cut a lot, they will give you the option of them removing the tree( at least here they do).

Your power company should have the same info as mine. If you are dead set on this particular holly and you want it to look good, be prepared to do a lot of trimming from now on. You will not be able just to let it go (unless it is far enough away from the line) or eventually the power company will come in and top the tree if it is under the lines or shear a straight line down the side next to the power line if not under it. They must keep any limbs a certain number of feet away from the line.

I realize that is not the correct cultivar for that spot, but it was planted by the builder in 1962. It is too beautiful to remove, if you had only seen it before it had been butchered. I love this tree so much I had the police out here! They didn't dare touch my cornus florida which is about 3 inches from the power lines. I would like to have a 'natchez' there but I just can bring myself to get rid of this one. That tree has gotten me awards (yard of the month) in the past years. Now, it looks like a piece of crap from the road. Crepe myrtles are very sturdy, I have never seen one fall. It has survived some really bad ice storms that caused some other trees in the area to split in pieces. This crepe myrtle will never have it's beautiful widespread canopy again thanks to those unsympathetic jackasses.

Logan, are you prepared for the anger of your neighbors when your tree branches cause a problem with the lines during a wind storm? What if the branches knock a power line down and someone gets hurt....or worse?

Not that I'm one to call someone names, but there's only one horse's patootie that I see.

If you think cornus florida or lagerstromeia indica is going to cause problems with power lines, you are wrong. What about the grove of ailanthus growing on the opposite side with power lines growing straight through the middle? Didn't touch that. What about the neighbor's leyland cypress? Didn't touch that either.

Logan, you should take a course or two in landscape design to avoid that spotty look and have a garden that has some cohesiveness. With some pruning and companion plants and a well defined border you can make that area look good instead of lamenting over a disfigured tree and blaming the power company. Their easement rights supersedes all others.

Builders are notorious for improper placement of plants. I made a living correcting their mistakes.

Mike

They have 5ft on both sides, they went WAY past that! I understand the "right plant, right place" concept. I will not remove this tree any time soon, but I may certainly remove some of the trunks to reduce the size just a bit. I have just finished installing the foundation plantings, it will look a lot better next year.

OP should revisit THIS excellent thread on holly. Scroll down to my posts about 'Maryland Dwarf' and 'Clarendon Spreading' for options which will not interfere with power lines.

Holly trees are tricky to tell when it comes to growth. Holly trees are a hardy evergreen that will make it wherever you plant it. Good soil in fun sun they'll grow fast shade/poor soil growth is slow.

When planting close to over head lines just depends what kind of lines we're dealing with.

utility lines..they'll be 3-4" has boxes mounted on the line so often. These lines are your tv cable,over head phone lines..really no ruling on them

service lines..phase 1 house service line..black coated line most the times you'll see a guild wire with them..ruling for this line 10 foot

phase 3 lines..bare wires most the time on top of the pole..ruling for this line is 25 foot

When planting next to over head lines lot of times the inder ground utilities follow the power to maximize buikding area