I haven't been here on GW forever ... saw this and thought that my perspective may be of interest, since I ran my own boutique rose/OGR nursery for five years. I started growing roses years ago, when introduced to OGRs by a friend. Quickly found that the ones I were most attracted to were ones that were not available on site anywhere in our area except at one small nursery, Sherando Roses, about 2 hours from here ... shopped there at least twice a year and my love of roses was fueled by my conversations with Randy, the owner. He was generous with his experience and I valued his opinions, which helped shape my gardens in those early years. When Randy retired and Sherando closed, friends and I were lamenting the loss of the one place where we could gather to enjoy, discuss, and buy our roses. (We were ordering online from the nurseries we all know, but nothing compared to the experience of getting our roses in person.) It was then that I decided to turn my garden and my love of OGRs into a nursery, to try to pass along and nurture the fire that Randy lit in me and in so many others. The reality of the rose business hit me pretty hard shortly after I opened. To put it bluntly, the average gardener does not want an old garden rose, especially one that gets big (and many people think that 'big' is anything over 4' tall), blooms only once per season (see ya, all those beautiful Gallicas, Ramblers, Albas, and so many others that are gorgeous in my hot, humid central Virginia garden) When the roses in the garden were in bloom, it was easier to introduce customers to ones that they were unfamiliar and convince them to try something that they had never heard of before. I fondly remember the year that I sold out of 'The Bishop', a wonderful Hybrid China, in one day because it was blooming and the color and fragrance and form are superb. All of the people who bought it that day left here with a new appreciation for a once-blooming rose. This is not what usually happens. For the most part, I had lots of people coming to look for New Dawn, Buff Beauty, various exhibition-style Hybrid Tea roses that I don't grow, anything by David Austin (because they knew that he produced the English roses), and anything orange, red, or yellow. When I opened my 'doors' that first year, I had what most of us here would consider a balanced assortment of a variety of good roses from most of the OGR classes. The popular ones that people had heard of sold quickly, the unfamiliar ones languished. (By popular, I mean roses with familiar names ... not necessarily roses that people knew in person.) During the years that followed, I propagated fewer roses that I knew would be challenging to sell that season, in favor of having more stock of the popular ones on hand. I convinced myself that I could do this (in conflict with my original mission to preserve and to distribute rare and worthy roses), because the meager $$ from the sale of the popular ones allowed me to buy more rare roses to add to my own gardens. This small positive aspect of the way my business was growing wasn't enough in the long run to keep me going. In 2012, I closed the retail portion of my nursery, and donated the remaining 80 roses in inventory to Stephen Scanniello's projects in NY. Stephen's Subaru that day was full of wonderful roses that most of us here know and love. I was happy to see them go to such a worthy project, but sad that I had failed to convince the public that old roses were something that they should get to know better. A general retail nursery, whether it is a brick-and-mortar store in your examples or a mail-order business, has to cater to its customers in order to survive. The average nursery customer does not go there to buy roses, and the average nursery owner/employee does not know how to choose or care for roses. (Speaking of care, there are many different levels of care that gardeners are willing to subscribe to in their rose gardens. Me? I have no problem spraying fungicide on my rare blackspot-prone roses that need it. That's what it takes to grow these here, and I know this and accept it. Other roses, like my ramblers, teas, most of the Chinas and Polyanthas, don't need fungicide and they don't get it. No type of Insecticide is used in my gardens.) This is a long-winded way to say that it is best to put ourselves in someone else's place before we criticize. Roses are a tough item to sell in the best of times at most nurseries ... even nurseries that specialize in them have a difficult time developing their customer base and logging enough sales to keep afloat. I hope I haven't offended anyone. Connie

Does your local/nearby Botanical Garden(s) have plant sales? There are two near me, one at a local College that specializes in regional Native plants. They have frequent plant sales to fund expansion of the Native plant Gardens. Many of them are propagated in their greenhouses, by volunteers, under the guidance of a retired Botany Professor. Another source of natives are Native Plant Society's. Our local Native Plant Society has a very active plant rescue schedule for construction and development sites. It has been a source of numerous Natives that are in my garden. We had one site of about 100 acres, that produced about 75-80 different species of garden worthy native plants, including many species of trees, shrubs, vines & 10 species of Ferns. Amazingly, I did not find a single exotic invasive plant on the site! We have recently initiated a program to propagate native plants to repopulate a local State Park, while at the same time, remove the invasive plants that displaced the original natives. I am also a longtime customer of Arrowhead Alpines. They offer so many unusual and difficult to find plants, that I can't resist. When I look through the catalog, an order is usually on the way within hours! Received this year's order from them about a month ago and every item is healthy and growing. Everything was in pots, except some Medeola virginiana pips, which have since emerged and are about 4" tall. Agreed, some are pricey, but having propagated plants for many years and experiencing the sometimes difficult and frustrating tasks, I can understand the reason they must command a higher price. Bob & Brigitta have a marvelous resource there in the frozen North(:Rb

This might help. Years ago (my dad's a prof) had a colleague stay over at Ohio State at our house. Month later, they get their phone bill and it's $100 plus. Turns out it's adult phone calls - wink wink. They were horrified and didn't want to confront their guest with the bill. (My parents don't drink and don't cuss). I am adopted. After thinking about it, they realized the exterminator had been there spraying for ants. They all had to leave the house. They called the exterminator company who immediately said - send us the bill, we will take care of it. Turns out the exterminator employee was going into homes and hitting phone porn. It wasn't the house guest! Toothbrush - probably cam't blame it on the ant guy.

After shopping around at Moon Valley and getting a runaround on prices, I decided to do some comparison shopping and found an alternative in the East Valley, Treeland Nurseries located at 2900 S. Country Club Dr. (same as Arizona Ave) in Mesa. I've never seen any advertisements for Treeland and heard about it from my neighbor. When I arrived, I noticed the parking lot was filled with landscaper trucks and trailers so I guess they cater to them and not the retail guy like me so they don't need to advertise. The quality of the plants were excellent and the sales people I talked with seemed expert on desert plants. I decided to buy and the planting crew did a dynamite job (spoke english), I could not be happier. If you decide to shop at Treeland, pack a lunch and enjoy it by the Koi pond (beware of the parrot, it is obnoxious and it bites), I'd rate Treeland a 4 star nursery. If it did not have a noisy and obnoxious parrot, I'd give it 5 stars.