My house is located in the foothills of Margalla Mountains and Margalla National Park starts less than a km from my house. As per the report quoted below, the soil in my area, mentioned as "Margalla South Directed Sunny Slopes" in the Table 1 of the report, soil pH in my area is 7.49 and soil texture is loamy.

When I dig in my lawn, after the upper few inches, the soil is light brown, loamy and full of stones of small to medium size. The stones are mostly round in shape.

I have replaced this soil with a better quality river / agricultural soil. I couldn't get the original river soil which is more like a sandy loam with excellent drainage and also carries lot of nutrients as it is composed of crushed rocks high up in the glaciated areas. Contains all essential minerals in abundance except nitrogen that is usually on the lower side. I mix my home made compost in the potting soil.

Your views, Straw.

best regards

Thanks for your comments Straw. So in your view, the clay top soil is better than the deeper loamy soil?

Above is proof that sand DOES NOT GLUE UP with clay into pottery. See the light yellow spots: that's sand which I mixed into clay 2-years ago .. still fluffy & separated from the clay. Those brown pine-bark chips are 10-year old. Pine is very slow to decompose. Those chips used to be big, they shrink smaller .. I use pine bark to create more "air-pockets" inside dense clay. Pic. Sep. 22.

Above is clay which I dug at below 2.5 feet or 0.7 m, and throw away. Note the calcium-rich white stones. Note the gray quartz-stone (silicon dioxide). Silica is abundant in clay.

Lowest left corner is a piece of high-iron red-lava-rock bought from store. when I tested this clay in red-cabbage juice, it's dark-blue (pH over 8), and cloudy means there's "free calcium".

Khalid: your dark clay on top is great to hold on to nutrients. And the loamy soil below has good oxygen for best root-growth & fast water-uptake. That's the ideal soil to grow own-root roses !!

I'm curious about the reddish-color of your loamy soil below, I thought it might be high iron, and the below link is fantastic in listing what type of minerals is associated with what soil color:

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/soils/edu/?cid=nrcs142p2_054286

From the above link, white or pale yellow soil means high calcium and high magnesium. True, I already posted pic. of white stones & pale clay with my dolomitic clay. The above link stated that strong brown or red soil is high in iron, and gypsum soil is actually pale brown.

That's true, I went outside to check, the bottom of the hole which I dumped tons of gypsum, that became fluffy pale brown, rather than pale sticky yellow.

The above site stated that light gray soil, or stones are quartz, or silicon dioxide. In bag of river pebbles with many colors: the light gray stone is the hardest stone (most silica), which impart strength to plants' cell .. clay is abundant in silica.

The white or pale yellow would be highest in pH: limestone or dolomite. Another site stated that if the soil is pinkish, means it's high in manganese.

http://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/sss/2014/03/30/soil-color-never-lies/

"Dark or black. Dark colors are usually due to the presence of organic matter, so that the darker the surface horizon more organic matter content is assumed .. humus. At other times, the dark color is due to the presence of compounds of reduced iron and manganese (as in Vertisols, black poorly drained soils), the presence of charcoal in soils ...

Clear or white. Usually due to the presence of calcium and magnesium carbonates, gypsum or other more soluble salts.

Red. The red color is usually a result of alteration of clay minerals, so it usually occurs in the argillic horizons. Weathered clay minerals release aluminium and iron oxides such as hematite (Fe2O3). This process is favored in hot climates with a long and intense dry season, as the Mediterranean climate. Reddish colors indicate good drainage and aeration of the soil, allowing the existence of oxidizing conditions to form oxides".

http://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/sss/2014/03/30/soil-color-never-lies/

*** From Straw: the above link has fantastic pics. of different colors soil, and their meanings. When I sent 1 cup of my black clay for testing, the result came back high in Organic matter. And the humus & manure bag from Walmart is very black. It's true that they put black charcoal in the bagged soils in Chicagoland .. with anti-fungal trace elements for roses, with pH 8.

Below are pics. of well-rotted horse manure that became "humus", or clay-like with magnesium and moisture. The brown patches are decayed grass-clippings. If I can see sawdust or wood-chips in the manure, then it's NOT totally rotted. Totally rotted manure is "clayish" and dense, I have to use a sturdy-shovel. 1st rose is Dee-lish, 2nd-rose is Betty white on Sept. 22.

Another interesting post. Here are my observations of my soil. My property is on two levels with a large retaining wall and thus, it's extremely variable. My area of Ohio is over limestone base, so it's mainly basic clay, but my yard has some pockets of weakly acidic clay due to 100yrs. of pine and oak leaves falling. On the lower lever, some of it is black, but not really loamy, while other areas are a brown, easily drained caliche from the break-down of fossils. this is NOT hard-pan. My clay is yellow, but it's all at least 12-24 inches down. My upper beds are definitely basic due to limestone house foundation and concrete retaining wall, but the soil is loamy as they've been amended over the years. I also have a small wooded area, but I have yet planted anything there.

Straw, that is SO TRUE about the tomatoes in clay. A friend recently planted some teensy plants in my clay rather than throw them away. I have done NOTHING to them, barely watering them and they have exploded with growth and have tomatoes. They aren't even in full all-day sun. It makes me wonder why I've spent so my effort on the ones I planted in my rose beds. : )

I think looking at one's areas geology is key to understanding its soil and helps us understand what's needed.

"I think looking at one's areas geology is key to understanding its soil and helps us understand what's needed."

Absolutely agreed, vaporvac. That's what I am trying to learn nowadays

That is so interesting that you brought this topic up. My tomatoes suffered greatly in my raised bed this year, however a few random seedlings piped up among my roses and grew like crazy. We have had torrential rain around here but I will see if I can get some soil pics. Straw, how on earth are you able to dig 2.5 feet? Our solid clay would have to be pretty wet to be able to do that!

with some store bought compost bottom right of photo. Totoro Z7b MD.

**** From Straw: I copy-paste Totoro's pic. here, to check with the soil link. Totoro's soil has pinkish area, means it's high in manganese (more available at acidic pH), plus small reddish stones (higher in iron, more available at neutral to acidic). Totoro's clay is soft, rather than chunky. Chunkier clay means higher pH. The compost is high in organic matter, thus blackish.

Kelly's soil looks like it has some fibrous organic matter mixed with clay & the cloudy & whitish shading is free lime (calcium), thus alkaline

My clay is much larger blobs, thus higher in magnesium (more sticky). I don't dig until 1 or 2 days after it rains. When the hole is too hard, I pour gypsum & water, come back, and it softens. Gypsum softens the clay better than vinegar.

Straw: Went to the nursery yesterday to buy some soil as I don't want to use the natural soil in my house.

A friend of mine has poultry farms so I get season chicken manure free of cost.

best regards

Khalid: thank you for those fantastic pics. You wrote "chicken manure is lighter in color than river soil". So the river soil is best, due to darker color. Dark color means lots of humus & organic matter.

My sister from NY visited me recently, and she was impressed with my very black top soil, she said "that's high in organic matter". Yes, I sent 1 cup of my soil to be tested at the EarthCo. lab, and the result: high in organic matter.

My first impression of that 1st pic. of soil from nursery: it's reddish brown color. Reddish means it's high in iron. Here's what Wikipedia said about red soil: "Red soil is a type of soil that develops in a warm, temperate, moist climate under deciduous or mixed forests and that have thin organic and organic-mineral layers overlying a yellowish-brown leached layer resting on an illuvial (see illuviation) red layer. Red soils generally derived from crystalline rock. They are usually poor growing soils, low in nutrients and humus and difficult to cultivate because of its low water holding capacity. Red soils denote the third largest soil group of India covering an area of about 3.5 lakhs sq. km (10.6% of India's area).

The texture of red soils varies from sand to clay, the majority being loam. Their chemical composition include non-soluble material 90.47%, iron 3.61%, aluminium 2.92%, organic matter 1.01%, magnesium 0.70%, lime 0.56%, carbon-Di-oxide 0.30%, potash 0.24%, soda 0.12%, phosphorus 0.09% and nitrogen 0.08%. However significant regional differences are observed in the chemical composition.

In general these soils are deficient in lime, magnesia, phosphates, nitrogen, humus and potash. Intense leaching is a menace to these soils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_soil

Below is a picture when I googled "red soil in Pakistan"

Brown soil is much better, according to Wikipedia: "Brown earth is a type of soil. Brown earths are mostly located between 35° and 55° north of the Equator. The largest expanses cover western and central Europe, large areas of western and trans-Uralian Russia, the east coast of America and eastern Asia. Here, areas of brown earth soil types are found particularly in Japan, Korea, China, eastern Australia and New Zealand. Brown earths cover 45% of the land in England and Wales. They are common in lowland areas (below 1,000 feet) on permeable parent material. The most common vegetation types are deciduous woodland and grassland. They are normally located in regions with a humid temperate climate. Rainfall totals are moderate, usually below 76 cm per year, and temperatures range from 4°C in the winter to 18°C in the summer. They are well-drained fertile soils with a pH of between 5.0 and 6.5."

Below is a picture of brown soil from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_earth#/media/File:BrownSoil.jpg

Below link on soil texture stated: "One thing to note is that, whereas clay soils can be either acidic or alkaline, sandy soils are always acidic."

http://www.yourgardeninginfo.com/the-different-characteristics-of-garden-soils

Here are some pics. of my tomatoes taken yesterday, Oct. 16. My 6 tomatoes in the back are still green, thanks to a 50 lb. bag of alfalfa meal that I dumped 5 years ago. Green organic matter nourish the soil bacteria that fix nitrogen for many years afterwards.

I put 1 cup of tomato tone NPK 3-4-6 in the planting hole plus 1 cup of gypsum in May, and zero fertilizer afterwards except 4 pieces of red-lava-rock on top.

My neighbors' tomatoes vines are all brown & wilted & done for the year. It dipped down to 39 F. or 3 C recently. I picked 7 large tomatoes today, I'm out of room in my large freezer down the basement, so husband will give away at work. Both pics. are taken Oct. 16:

More pics. of tomato in the back with alfalfa meal given 5 years ago. Pic. taken Oct. 16 in zone 5a, of one-red-cherry tomato invading my house:

The 20+ tomatoes in the front have less green leaves, but more fruits from trees' leaves dumped last fall. The 6 tomatoes in the back are greener, due to 50 lb. of alfalfa meal given 5 years ago, plus grass-clippings.

Great looking tomatoes. Most of mine ares still green and have lots of fruit still green, but a couple inexplicably dried up. You should make sauce if you have too many. I've frozen many small packets flat in the freezer. You can do alot with green unripe tomatoes, as well. My mom used to make a pie with them and pan sautee them with potatoes and green chilies...delicious. A Major study has recently shown the are also VERY nutritious when green. I'll have to search for the article.

I'm thinking of layering some Alfalfa meal over my beds for the winter.
Is that a good idea or should I just put it in the compost pile?.

Vaporvac: With 30 tomato plants and a large freezer full of tomatoes, I'm done. I planted too many (pack of 6 plants for $2 at Menards). All the tomatoes go back to the soil. Tomato vines & fruits are high in potassium so that will enrich my clay.

Alfalfa NPK is 2-1-2, when you put that in the compost pile, the most fertile soil will be UNDER THE COMPOST PILE, where all the nutrients leach down. But if you layer alfalfa meal over your rose beds, the nutrients will leach down right below, plus nourish the earthworms in your rose beds.

Alfalfa meal is "gluey" since it's high in magnesium. I no longer put them in my sticky clay, I use fluffy horse manure. But alfalfa meal is great for sandy/loamy soil. If it's put down now, it will be neutral pH by spring time, with 6 months of decomposing.

OMGosh! 30 plants! I'd have been done about 20 plants ago! :) Here I thought I had alot with 8. I guess I'll just put my alfalfa hay on the heap as I have loamy clay. I had bought it earlier and just looking for something to do with it. I have some horse manure that I can use directly on the roses over the winter.

Straw: You are right about the red soil. It isn't the best soil around and that is why I selected the brown soil that comes from the bed of some stream or area around it. As we go down the country in the plains of Punjab, one finds the river or canal soil that is the best soil I have ever used. But it's hard to get river soil in Islamabad all the time. Some time I get it and some time I don't.

I have already given a 4 to 5 inches layer of leaves in all the rose beds / holes. I will wait another few days so that they settle down a bit and then I would start sprinkling chicken manure in small quantities. I do not want to dump too much of chicken manure at one time. Just a bit of sprinkling at one time, allowing it to settle down with the layer of leaves and then sprinkle again. I will keep adding the leaves also and will continue doing this for next three months. What do you say Straw?

best regards

Khalid: I like what you did ... chicken manure attracts earthworms, plus nitrogen in chicken manure helps to break down the leaves. Worms like "layering" since there are gaps in between for oxygen.

Last year I put lots of trees' leaves inside a planting hole. When I dug that up, after 1 year the leaves become pitch-black humus. So organic matter do break down to become black, and black soil means high in organic matter.

What I learn this year: Gypsum has 21% sulfur and 17% calcium. When one put that down, the 21% sulfur goes down instantly, then the 17% calcium takes many months to go down.

Which explained why Marie Pavie dropped all leaves in July from "sulfur-burn" via my dumping gypsum on top, then re-grow clean-leaves, thanks to calcium moving down a month later.

Thus it's best to put gypsum or lime into the soil in the fall when roses are dormant. Then the calcium has many cold & wet months to move down for spring flush. The rose park made a mistake: they put sulfur (has gypsum) in spring, and that burnt a few roses, plus Pink Traviata broke down in RRD thanks to thinner leaves from the sulfur.

Same with rootings: I mixed gypsum in the rooting medium .. and put cuttings in. The sulfur is released and burnt the cuttings. I tested that in a vase: put gypsum in, and the cut-bloom wilted immediately.

In contrast, when gypsum & tomato tone NPK 3-4-6 is put in the soil a few months in advance, then the rain water leaches out the acidic sulfur, and leave behind calcium, which is mild & beneficial for root. Calcium and potassium are needed to form thicker & more solid roots.

That's why my 1st batch of cutttings failed, but the 2nd batch did great. Last year the same thing happened: I re-used a pot (mixed with gypsum & tomato-tone months ago), and cuttings did well. But all cuttings rot in the FRESHLY mixed gypsum & organic fertilizer.

I pulled out a bunch of dead cuttings today: the one which I stuck in a few inches: didn't make it. But the ones that I stuck in deep at 3/4 of the stem did well. Sticking deep has a few advantages: don't have to water, since it's moist underneath. No watering means less rot.

Also a bit of clay does wonder for rooting, clay has magnesium, which helps with sprouting roots. Will have to buy a good squirt bottle. When I dumped water via bucket on rooting-medium, the rootings dropped all leaves immediately, so I use a hand-spray to mist the rootings ... and they keep their leaves.

Bluegirl is right: rootings like humid air to keep the stem & leaves moist, but the #1 cause of rot in rootings is too much water below the soil. Bluegirl doesn't water her rootings, she has a mister that mist the air every so often.

Straw wrote: "In contrast, when gypsum & tomato tone NPK 3-4-6 is put in the soil a few months in advance, then the rain water leaches out the acidic sulfur, and leave behind calcium, which is mild & beneficial for root. Calcium and potassium are needed to form thicker & more solid roots."

Thanks Straw. I also intend sprinkling some gypsum too during the fall / winters. I did it last year too. Mainly, I kept adding leaves to the beds and pots during fall and winter. Also sprinkled some chicken manure and gypsum along with banana peels, tea etc. It doesn't snow in Islamabad so these things kept decomposing whole winter and by summers this year, I had a 3-4 inches thick fluffy loamy top soil dark in colour. That's what I intend doing this year too. I will actually be adding more leaves, in phases, as and when they are available. They decompose much quicker in the beds then in a compost heap because of a much larger number of worms and microbes already present in the beds.

Straw wrote: "I pulled out a bunch of dead cuttings today: the one which I stuck in a few inches: didn't make it. But the ones that I stuck in deep at 3/4 of the stem did well. Sticking deep has a few advantages: don't have to water, since it's moist underneath. No watering means less rot."

I had exactly the same experience. Cuttings that were dug deep survived in much bigger numbers than those that weren't.

best regards

Khalid: check out the below link with fantastic pics that show the result of root-growth with charcoal (burnt wood without oxygen), also with phosphorus fertilizer, and with mycorrhyzal inoculation.

http://www.eprida.com/eacu/PDF%20Files/MOgawa.pdf

Mycorrhyzal fungi (both the ecto and endo) grow naturally at pH below 7, in decayed organic matter & natural soil to help with root-growth.

I started rooting cuttings in June. Zero luck with medium where mixed gypsum & fertilizer into the soil, stuck cuttings in immediately .. without waiting a few weeks for rain to leach out the 17% sulfur in gypsum.

But the cuttings in old potting soil, plus decayed alfalfa, plus natural soil that I scraped from the back of my garden (with decayed willow, pine, birch leaves): that took root immediately. The decayed alfalfa nourished the mycorrhyzal fungi for best root growth.

Conclusion: Artificial potting soil (peatmoss or woodchips) is lousy for root-growth ... zero mycorrhyzal fungi.

The roses that I planted right away into my clay did best, but the roses which I put in artificial-potting soil are WAY-BEHIND in root-growth, unless spoon-fed high-phosphorus & high potassium chemical fertilizer.

The best root-growth I witness was when I broke up my clay with gypsum & organic matter months ahead. Left it alone so the sulfur can leach out from the gypsum, and let mycorrhyzal fungi multiply on added plant matter ... then plant my rose a few months later: very fast-root-growth without fertilizer.

I'm making my rooting-bed in advance for next spring: put in organic matter & inoculation from a woody site, and let the mycorrhyzal fungi grow during winter months.

Wikipedia wrote: "Colonization of barren soil[edit]

Plants grown in sterile soils and growth media often perform poorly without the addition of spores or hyphae of mycorrhizal fungi to colonise the plant roots and aid in the uptake of soil mineral nutrients.[21

Arbuscular mycorrhizas are found in 85% of all plant families, and occur in many crop species. Ectomycorrhizas, or EcM, are typically formed between the roots of around 10% of plant families, mostly woody plants including the birch, dipterocarp, eucalyptus, oak, pine, and rose[26] families, orchids,[32]

Many EcM fungal fruiting bodies are well known. These include the economically important and edible truffle (Tuber) and the deadly death caps and destroying angels (Amanita). They also form on many common temperate foresttrees, such as pines (Pinus), oaks (Quercus), willows (Salix), Douglas firs (Pseudotsuga), eucalypts (Eucalyptus), beeches (Fagus) and birches (Betula).

**** From Straw: Re-post the link with pics. of how root growth improves with inoculation of mycorrhyzal. If the soil is barren, introduce some soil from a fertile & woody area for beneficial mycorrhyzal fungi, plus decayed organic matter to feed the fungi. The fungi will help plants with nutrients-uptake & better root-growth:

http://www.eprida.com/eacu/PDF%20Files/MOgawa.pdf

Question for Khalid: do you notice better rooting of your cuttings with natural soil in the ground plus leaves on top? Thanks.

Excellent link "Mycorrhyzal fungi in hydroponics (growing without soil)":

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/hydroponic-growing-techniques/mycorrhizal-fungi-in-hydroponics-questions-and-answers.aspx

"Both are beneficial fungi found naturally in soil. Trichoderma are more for cycling nutrients in the soil and providing protection against soil pests, while mycorrhizal fungi help more with nutrient and water uptake and increased root growth. Trichoderma help make nutrients soluble. Mycorrhizal fungi can actually take the nutrients up and translocate them into the plant.

Mycorrhizal fungi can be used with soil, hydroponics and cuttings. The key benefits in hydroponics are extended root systems.

Q. Should I feed mycorrhizae carbs? (e.g. molasses?)

Molasses and other carbs are good for feeding bacteria and other types of fungi. But you don't need to feed the mycorrhizae. You are better off adding products which contain humic acids to promote more root exudates (food for the mycorrhizae)."

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/hydroponic-growing-techniques/mycorrhizal-fungi-in-hydroponics-questions-and-answers.aspx

*** From Straw: I made my own Trichoderma by stuffing cracked corn (pH 4) into the planting hole months in advance. Yes, it works, providing that the cracked corn is COMPLETELY DECAYED so it's less acidic. All my vigorous & healthy roses have decayed cracked corn in the planting hole: Last year's Tchaikosky & Betty White, and this year's Double-Delight and Dee-lish.

For Mycorrhyzal inoculation, the pot with soil scraped from my garden's woody-area with willow & pine & birch GAVE THE FASTEST ROOTING.

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/hydroponic-growing-techniques/mycorrhizal-fungi-in-hydroponics-questions-and-answers.aspx

"What about mycorrhizal fungi and high phosphorus levels?

Mycorrhizae fungi spores 'sleep' while levels of phosphorus are high (above 70ppm). They only awaken when levels drop lower than this.

What conditions do mycorrhizal fungi prefer?

Temperature: around 68-73°F is ideal but mycorrhizae can also help your plants tolerate occasional temp extremes.

Moisture: mycorrhizal fungi like to have a good air/water mix to thrive. Too moist or too dry is not ideal. Once again, they will help the plant tolerate any extremes that occur.

pH: it depends on the mycorrhizae species but generally they thrive in 5.5-7.5. Some can tolerate acidic conditions better than others while some like alkaline better than others. Look for products that are made from a blend of different species in order to create a healthy mycorrhizae population that will thrive in varying pH conditions."

More info. from below link:

http://www.gwinnettmastergardeners.com/2007/05/mycorrhizal-inoculation-does-it-benefit-plant-growth.html

" Most undisturbed soils already contain beneficial organisms including various types of mycorrhizal fungi. Successful treatment with artificial inoculants cannot be guaranteed since (1) the existing soil may already contain native mycorrhizal fungi that will out-compete the introduced mycorrhizas or (2) the soil organic matter content may not be adequate. The presence of organic matter is known to enhance the development of mycorrhizae."

Straw: This is excellent information on mycorrhiza fungi. I read the article regarding use of charcoal to enhance nitrogen fixing microbes. Very interesting however I was just thinking that charcoal is quite alkaline. The experiments were conducted in Indonesia which is a tropical area with lots and lots of rains. It might be appropriate to use charcoal in area with such high rainfall but do you think it will be right to use charcoal in a potting mix when the pots are to be watered with tap water mostly having pH of 8 or even higher?

Straw wrote: "Conclusion: Artificial potting soil (peatmoss or woodchips) is lousy for root-growth ... zero mycorrhyzal fungi."

Absolutely agreed. I shared the same conclusion last year. My cutting in plain river soil with a bit of leaf mold / leaf compost mixed in it gave me the good results. However, best results came from cuttings planted in shade in ground and covered with lots of leaves (that probably helped to retain moisture).

And the reason why I will use thick woody large size cuttings..... strong shoots grow fast and make a full size bush in one year whereas small size cuttings take 2 years or even more.

Conclusion: I am going to plant large size thick shoots without removing most of the branches

More to come on soil preparation. Me and Maxus (my pointer dog) walked 7 km early morning and then I had a great smoothie breakfast and then, with a helper, I prepared potting soil for the winters. This potting soil will be used in new pots and also for replacing the soil in old pots. Stay tuned....

best regards

OK.... today spent some time in preparing potting soil.

Any suggestions Straw?

Straw: Just reread all about mycorrhyza again. Do you think my old pots (two years old) would have enough mycorrhyza developed in the roots and changing the potting soil would disturb them. Can I reuse them anyhow?

best regards

Khalid: Just saw your 3 new posts here today, Monday Oct 24 at 10 am. I forgot to answer your question about "repotting 2-year old"?

In cold zone with peaty & dense potting soil, folks change soil in pots in three years. But you are in warm zone & bigger plants & loamy-potting soil, repotting every 2 years is best to renew the depleted soil.

A tiny bit of soil, taken from the most robust rose/plant is enough to inoculate beneficial Mycorrhyzal fungi into many pots. Mycorrhyzal is abundant in woody & undisturbed area where there are robust plants growing.

As to Trichoderma fungi, any fibrous & decayed organic matter will host that fungus, be it alfalfa meal, leaves, crack corn, compost. Trichoderma is needed in larger amount, and your fibrous compost will supply that.

Khalid: THANK YOU very much for the pics. of bigger cuttings = bigger plants, and for the fantastic tip of NOT REMOVING THE BRANCHES with thicker cuttings.

I'm so happy to find "pine fines" at Ace Hardware for $3.33 per huge bag .. that's fast-draining medium to root thick cuttings indoor for the winter, with a plastic bag over the cuttings to keep it moist. It's "baggie-method" for indoor & cold-zone rooting. I pruned lots of branches before winter .. and they are MUCH THICKER than June's tiny & skinny cuttings. Except that I have to root indoor, and my house is quite cold inside through the winter, at 65 F, or 18 C.

Saw Khalid's pics. of how native soil is blended with nursery's soil & chicken manure. Thank you for those excellent pics !!

Khalid wrote: "Chicken manure mixed. Now waiting for the leaf mold that a friend of mine has to send me from his garden. May be 3-4 bag of leaf mold, 1 bag of cotton seed cake and finally my home made compost. I want this to be ready by mid december. That is the time when I will be changing the soil in some of my pots."

Agree to the above. Your soil has beige stones (lime stone?) which will bring the pH to 7.4 as reported for your area. The nursery's soil is reddish (high in iron) so I suspect it's lower in pH. Leaf-mold is slightly alkaline if completely composted, but acidic if almost decomposed.

Cotton-seed cake is slightly acidic. Chicken manure is alkaline if 100% composted. Those will balance each other. The only missing link is "magnesium" or the glue that holds soil together. Sticky clay or anything muddy & sticky is high in magnesium.

Bentonite clay is recommended for sandy/loamy soil ... best forms are Calcium Bentonite or Potassium Bentonite, rather than sodium Bentonite (high in salt).

I find that organic matter (high in magnesium ) is cheaper .. Even cracked corn (pH 4) decomposes in a few months to neutral pH .. that's very sticky and glues up with my clay, same with alfalfa meal, greens & leaves, and oatmeal.

Rice & Beans are high in magnesium and it's very sticky. Rice Hulls & Oats hulls make excellent mulch. Same with cocoa mulch (very high in magnesium) .. that's sticky & holds moisture.

My kid likes to eat this "sticky rice" dish made from sweet-glutinous rice and beans. That's very high in magnesium.

Thanks everyone for wealth of information. I am not going to bother with using outside micorhyzal fungi any more and just try to foster my native fungi.

totoro, I had just heard of buying the micorhyzal fungi this year. I suppose it's OK for those without an outside garden, but healthy soil is full of them. This is also why it's helpful to keep your compost and extra potting soil
damp even if you're not using it; it keeps all the microbes, etc alive.

Khalid, if it's too much work to replace all the soil in your pots you could try top dressing them. That's what many botanical gardens do when their plants are too large to move. I have very old plants in huge pots that I could never remove so I just periodically top dress the soil and finish with a layer of compost.

Thank you Straw for posting a place for the pine fines. I will look at my Ace H. I usually don't go there as it's more expensive, but look for it. Is it just called 'pine fines'? I tried rooting following Connie's method from Hartwood Roses and have had surprisingly good results for a newbie. I wish I had more roses to propagate as I have a lot of space to fill and it's fun to do. Excellent info on using larger cuttings; it just makes sense that they'd be bigger faster. Thanks all for great info. : )

Vaporvac: The bags I got has the label "Ace Hardware Pine Bark Mulch", but it's half-decomposed to tiny chips .. if I pick out the larger pieces (1/2 inch to 1 inch max), there are lots of pine-fines and pine-powder for rooting. That bag has MUCH SMALLER pieces than HomeDepot or Walmart's pine-mulch.

Straw: Thanks for all your suggestions, specially regarding cultivating mycorrhizea and Trichoderma fungi. Regarding Mg in the soil, this red soil is a little sticky so I guess it contains Mg too. It's not a loamy soil rather something between a loam and clay.

And a friend of mine brought me this today.....

Straw: Today I saw Alfalfa seed in a garden shop. Do you think growing Alfalfa in a 10ft x 6ft bed will produce enough alfalfa leaves to feed my roses or may be use them in the compost? Just a wild idea?

And there is something great I observed today. I just turned over the layer of dry leaves in one of the rose beds today. You know I sprinkled these leaves with chicken manure. I was delighted to see that the bottom most layer of leaves is already more than half decomposed in just 10-15days. I haven't ever seen leaves decomposing so quickly. Is it due to chicken manure sprinkling and regular watering?

Vaporvac: Thanks for the suggestion. I have to shift few roses to bigger pots so i will change the soil for these roses. Few more are third year in the pots... I will change the soil in these pots too. Remaining all, as you suggested, will be top dressed with my home made compost. With so much chicken manure in my compost, I guess it would be strong enough to provide nutrients to my roses for next season.

best regards

About corn: if it's dry, and sit in storage for a long time, it's very acidic at pH 4 .. I killed at least 4 roses when I put dry-cracked-corn in the planting hole. Despite my soil pH near 8, the corn became "sour" in the hole, and even more sour when acidic rain fermented it. It was like making "fermented & pickled corn" ... that's too sour for roots.

Corn has much higher NPK than horse manure, but fresh-horse manure or fresh chicken-manure burns roses if mixed into soil. The advantage of corn is zero salt, and safe only if it's completely decomposed to neutral-pH.

Organic matter like grass and corn takes at least 1 month to decompose in wet weather, but when it's dry, it's eternity for such to decompose. I look up pH values for FRESH corn, it's between 6.0 - 7.5 with canned corn at 6, and fresh sweet corn at 7.3. I tested pH of DRY corn many times, and it's below pH 4.

Alfalfa hay is safer, it takes much longer to decompose, and much less acidic than dry corn when I tested the pH in red-cabbage juice.

Thank you for the report on chicken manure NPK 5-3-2 to speed up decomposition. Things high in nitrogen speed up decomposition, same with fish meal NPK 8-7-0. NPK of sugar-waste is 2.0/8.0/0 ... I'm not sure what they mean by sugar-waste:

http://www.lundproduce.com/N-P-K-Value-of-Everything.html

Growing alfala in a bed of 10 ft x 6 ft ... sounds like plenty of greens to feed roses. My mint patch is 6 ft x 4 ft, and it was plenty of mint to feed roses, mint is much shorter than alfalfa. Below link lists common mistakes in growing alfalfa:

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/GrowingAlfalfa/

Common Mistake Number 2: Acidic, infertile soils
Have soil test results in hand well before planting alfalfa. Make sure the soil pH is okay. This means a pH above 6.0 and, for a beginning stand, above 6.5. Lime is expensive. If you have an acidic soil and can't afford to lime, don't plant alfalfa. Alfalfa requires high amounts of P and K, both for crop growth and for replacement of what is removed in the hay. If you can't afford to fertilize a lot, don't plant alfalfa.

Straw: The corn I am getting would be fresh corn, ie, corn cobs removed from the plant just a few days back. As you mentioned in your comments, fresh corn will not be very acidic..... is that right? And do I need to crush the fresh corn too?

Khalid: I posted in previous years picture of my own-root Double Delight reaching 3 feet, or 0.9 meter in less than a few months when I put clover in the pot. Clover is very good in fixing nitrogen, works great in pots.

http://www.oregonclover.org/uses/nitrogenfixation/

"Clover is one of the best nitrogen fixing plants available. Clovers have the ability to obtain nitrogen from the atmosphere and “fix” it in nodules on its roots; this is called nitrogen fixation. The amount of nitrogen fixed varies depending on species, stand density, fertility, weather, and the extent to which the clover has been defoliated. However, numerous studies have shown that crimson clover, ladino or white clover, and red clover with its substantial amount of nitrogen fixation represents significant savings compared with purchasing nitrogen."

http://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/soil-management/cover-crops/management-of-red-clover-as-a-cover-crop

"It is important to seed red clover no deeper than 0.5 inch. Seeds may not emerge if they are placed deeper. So, check seeding depth in the field, especially when using a no-till drill. Settings may need to be changed depending on field conditions and residue cover. Use seed that has been inoculated with the appropriate Rhizobium strain to guarantee nitrogen fixation."

Check out pics. of this person putting clover in pots in HMF:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.235273

For folks in the U.S.A, Johnny's Seeds is a good place to order clover-seeds. I ordered seeds from them before, best price ever. See link below for pictures of nitrogen-fixation plants.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/v-78-nitrogen-fixation.aspx

Khalid: Just saw your question about fresh corn .. Yes, I would crush to prevent corn-plants from sprouting. Fresh corn plus water plus hot temp. plus air will decompose faster to neutral pH than dry corn.

Dry corn is acidic since it can't decompose. I once soaked dry-corn in my pH 9 tap water, and tap-water became VERY ACIDIC, enough to wilt a few roses in high heat.

I put gypsum in the planting hole plus dry-corn, and that was BAD, killed a few roses that way. Calcium in lime or gypsum has a "drying-effect" which prevent stuff from decompose completely.

That's why I never buy store-bought & bagged compost .. it has that nasty chemical quick-lime to deodorize the cow manure.

See excerpt from below link: "When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘Burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue."

https://the7thwreck.wordpress.com/2005/12/25/why-not-to-use-quicklime-to-dispose-of-a-corpse/

Khalid, you could also put the cobs in your compost. I used to just lightly bury mine in my beds after a cookout and they'd decompose. The silk and husks are also goods, but I don't know exactly what they contain nutritionally.

This clover discussion might explain why my indoor plants are always so healthy: for some reason I always have clover growing in them. That's one thing I always let grow in my beds for a bit before pulling out and just leaving on the soil to decompose. Just wish I didn't have so much in my grass.

Straw, thanks for the shout-out to Johnny's Seeds. I ordered from them years ago and loved their unusual selection. A friend gave me extras from Baker seeds and they also have quite the variety.

Maybe I should move some clover to my rose beds. Right now they are just feeding weeds.

Straw and Vaporvac: Excellent suggestion regarding use of cobs in the compost too. Any idea what is the NPK value of cobs? Is it same as the corn grains?

I mentioned earlier that I get chicken manure free of cost from the poultry farm of a friend. Today I checked from him how the manure is processed. He informed me that he has egg layers in his farm and before putting a new stock, the farm floor gets a 5-6 inches thick layer of rice husk. The husk layer is changed after 80 weeks and during this time, it is combed after every two days. Anything extra from the level (which is to be maintained on the floor) is swept out. That is a mix of chicken droppings and rice husk actually. So what I get in the form of chicken manure is a mix of chicken droppings and rice husk and is in quite a processed form, ie, quite old already. Don't you think it's good? I mean a seasoned and well rotted mix of chicken droppings and rice husk.

I further put it in my compost, mixing it with kitchen waste that includes peels of bananas, apples, potatoes, cucumber, oranges / lemons, onions, others fruits / vegs, green like spinach etc, egg shells, tea bags / waste black tea, left over rice etc. I do a sprinkling of a bit of chicken manure and soil every day after adding a layer of chicken waste. I am now waiting for that compost to get ready that already contains chicken manure. My last year manure was good in K, Ca and trace elements but weak in nitrogen and that is what caused many issues, specially during monsoon.

best regards

Khalid: I responded to your excellent info. a while ago, but I didn't hit the submit button !! Corn cob is high in potassium, and the pore space it gives is excellent. Plus corn is much, much lower in salt than sulfate of potash at 43 salt-index, and muriate of potash (potassium chloride) at 112.6 salt-index.

http://www.philstar.com/agriculture/2014/10/12/1379156/uplb-studies-viability-corn-cobs-alternative-fertilizer

Corn cobs have potassium content averaging one percent, while the ash has a potassium content ranging from 21 to 33 percent. The study also aims to determine which among the different corn cob sizes (whole, chopped, finely ground, and ash) are most effective in releasing potassium to be used by the plants. It is found out that ash from corn cobs gave the best result in terms of growth and biomass production as it has higher concentrated amount of potassium.

http://www.philstar.com/agriculture/2014/10/12/1379156/uplb-studies-viability-corn-cobs-alternative-fertilizer

See below link on "acidic red clay" for the importance of "pore space" to provide oxygen for best root-growth.

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~djgofort/Miscellaneous15.htm

An ideal soil would contain 45% mineral, 5% organic matter and 50% pore space.

The sandy soil down there won't hold nutrients. For proof you can look at the distribution of dairies. You will find none in the coastal plains. A 1000 pound milk producing animal can't get enough nutrients out of sandy soil to stay healthy. Texas has soil even worse. It can hold enough nutrients to raise cows but you would have a hard time plowing it. I have seen mud there build up in wheel wells to the point it would bust heavy duty military tires. I've seen good soil in Kentucky but parts of the state have creeks that always stay muddy. The clay soil is so fine it never drops out of solution.

By the way, red clay is one of our better soils. When you have gray, brown, purple, white or yellow clay, the soil is worse but you deal with these soils the same way.

Article was written by David Goforth Agriculture Extension agent North Carolina Cooperative Extension Cabarrus County Center. "

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~djgofort/Miscellaneous15.htm