..I first grew the Golden Showers rose back in the 1980's, and it was a fine yellow climber, upright and continuous flowering, making a good splash of colour... ...I've only read on this forum that the name means something else too... I've no idea what, and no urge to find out, so I'm completely oblivious to it... therefore the rose Golden Showers, is still as it is to me... a fine modern yellow climbing rose... and nothing else... and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it over here, to a new gardener who wants an easy going rose... ..if they give me a queer look, I shall have no idea why...

Jjpeace: that is your opinion, but it would be a sad day indeed if the only roses available to the rest of North America are determined by what is popular in Toronto! Kim: There will be demand for these obscure varieties again, everything is cyclical. The key is to have them propagated, distributed, and safely tucked away in many gardens instead of letting them disappear forever during the dark ages -- just like the ancient libraries of Alexandria or Timbuktu. A long time ago I was assistant to the curator at UC Berkeley Botanical Garden while doing my undergrad. The person in charge of the California section was kind enough to give me a rooted sucker of minutifolia because I was doing a research project. Afterwards, I kept the plant alive for ten years in a #1 pot in San Francisco, but lost it during an extended trip because my plant sitter didn't water it. Minutifolia was dormant at the time. I'm glad it's being more widely distributed, because through the years, the friends of the garden that run the plant sales rarely propagated it. I have plenty of experience keeping this ENDANGERED species alive, it prefers dappled shade in hot situations and produces bigger leaves & flowers with regular water. If the placement is correct, the plant explodes with growth. The growing media in the pot is fast draining, but it has no qualms sending roots through the holes into clay soil. Except for water, I basically just ignore it, no pruning, fertilizer, or spray. I'm glad you generously donated Pure Bea to the heritage group, I will treasure it. I had already contacted Tessie last year about PB. I asked her about hips but she didn't get any viable seedlings.... My 10+ year old Suncrest on its fourth flush this season:

PZ is right that the nursery business is no picnic! I don't know any nursery personally that's singing the praises of the nursery business. One of the worst things for the smaller nurseries, at least in my opinion, are the big box stores selling plants. Especially ones that sell them at a loss just to get you to come in and buy their other crap. And some places simply have no business selling plants, like grocery stores! From what I understand, places like Home Depot don't actually pay for the plants they receive until they're sold, and the grower is required to bring them in and keep them refreshed, etc. And any returns or refunds come completely out of the grower's pockets, not HD. My partner was in the shipping business, and it was no picnic for them either to ship to these places. I don't know what the answer to all of this is, but I think diversity in nurseries is a good thing, too. But, I don't think the diversity is going to grow, I think it's going to go the other direction. Maybe it's just the business climate today that's so tough on many small businesses of all types, I'm not sure. Personally, I don't call businesses that get giant subsidies, or get no-bid contracts that they don't even fulfill are actual businesses (hear that Halliburton?). And frankly, corporations are not farmers. And much of what they produce isn't really food, nutrition-wise. Boy, have I gone off topic. Better stop here! Jim in NY, I guess I don't get on here that often, but I enjoy your rants, personally. I don't totally agree, but then, I don't have to. As far as DA roses go, he does have some wonderful roses, and many will stand the test of time, I'm sure. I'm not so wild about some of their business practices sometimes (I could say that about a lot of places!). Ah, well.... --Ron

Thanks everyone for chiming in with responses! That is an important cautionary note, Thorntorn, about rose breeders having a possible agenda in promoting the fragrance of their own roses when they may be marginal at best. Certainly Delbard and Kordes roses do not come to mind when I think of fragrance, and I take Clements' statements of "highly fragrant" on a majority of his roses with a skeptical eye, since at least my poor nose can't detect much fragrance in most of his roses. Still, my impression of the Delbard book as a whole was an attempt to break down the components of different rose scents as "recipes" and celebrate the joy of smelling roses - most of the examples of scent combinations in the rest of the book were from OGRs. Also, until recent years I assume that fragrance was a not high priority in rose breeding, when more visual pursuits like high centered HTs or health concerns like BS resistance or hardiness have taken more precedence. For me in zone 5, those health/hardiness concerns are one of my highest priorities and I love the whole clan of (mostly) scentless Kordes and other types of roses. If I have to sacrifice wafting fragrance for that health I gladly will, but I'm glad there are the OGRs and new breeders like David Austin who have brought fragrance back into their lines. Regardless, I agree with you that it's too much work most of the time to try to detect (or imagine) a scent in a rose that is at best stingy with the scent. It's like trying to train my palate to detect the difference between a $10 bottle and a $50 bottle of wine. I can already tell the difference between truly cheap and a $10 bottle of wine, and frankly I don't WANT to develop a taste for expensive wines - I already have a taste for expensive roses! Sometimes the descriptions of rose scents are rather like those wine taster guides - who wants the taste (or scent) of "tar" or "smoke" in either one? For me, though, that doesn't mean that roses that don't have much in the scent department aren't worth wasting my time on. With my poor nose, I'd probably be stuck with a dozen or two roses that I could actually smell under normal conditions, and the intriguing look of roses like Red Intuition is totally worth it in my yard even though I can't imagine it having any appreciable scent. I realize that folks like Thorntorn choose roses with fragrance as a top priority, and that's part of the great thing about growing roses - that there's enough diversity of form, scent, growing habits, colors, and other types of roses to satisfy your own personal priorities. I totally agree with Suzy that what speaks to us about a particular rose is very individual and a complex combination of our experiences and priorities not just something that could be prescribed about the rose. So I agree with Mendocino rose that I wish my nose were better, but I'll settle for enjoying the look of most of my roses and the scent of a few select dear ones. I love the idea kittymoonbeam had to literally drink in some of the scent of those few favorites - I can't see doing that to try to coax a reluctant scent from a rose, but that would be so fun to try with my dear toe-curling fragrant Frances Dubrueil! Cynthia