An interesting subject! I have often thought I didn't know how to really smell a rose - too many of mine seem scentless, even ones that are supposed to be fragrant. I am quite sure timing is important.
I have a number of roses still blooming; I should try to educate my nose.

Some times I will think of roses that do not have pronounced scent as "waxy". That is just my own term for what I call it. It is there and is a scent. I just don't think of it as a perfume scent. I smell it on florists roses as well. All roses smell like something.

Some of the best scents are produced on bushes that get sun in the morning and when the day has warmed up around 11 am. Afternoon roses usually don't have as nice a fragrance as morning ones do. If it's cold outside, I can't smell a thing. Kim told me to cut them and bring them inside so that when they warm up, the fragrance has a better chance to be released.

On highly variable fragrant roses like Jude the Obscure, the weather and temperature changes the scent. I have not tried a fragrance test where some roses are in different soil conditions to see which gives the best fragrance. I do the best with my soil that I can and I get whatever fragrance the roses make with it.

Hi, Cynthia. I read this post on Friday and returned this morning to see how the conversation was going. Thank you for taking so much time to post such an interesting topic. I hope some others will pick up the thread.

I don't have very much to add or contribute but did decide late this summer that in the next coming growing season I wanted to focus on fragrance as I selected any new roses for my gardens.

I love the idea of taking the time to learn to smell a rose and that some roses might be secretive about their scent and unwilling to let it waft for just anyone. Or that they might just be tired. :) And I am certainly willing to take the time to woo a rose. On the other hand, I also want to walk through my gardens and smell the fragrance of roses without having to work very hard.

Interesting little fragments float around in my mind about this topic and I think many of them are comments roseseek has made: a story about a nursery man who would place a bloom under his hat to heat it up before offering it as a possibility to a buyer, that blooms on different sides of the same bush may be more or less fragrant, and so on. It is a fascinating subject.

My current reading is the Vintage Gardens rose catalog and it is clear that Gregg Lowery is gifted with an extraordinary sense of smell. Wouldn't it be interesting to hear his thoughts, too, on how to learn to smell a rose?

In my gardens, so far, the David Austins are the most fragrant. I have a grouping of Munstead Wood, Lavender Lassie, and Mrs. B.R. Cant... that's a good one. But I am still waiting for most of my roses to build and hoping that they will also develop more of a fragrance as they mature. I've written about it before but I can't help repeating myself because I find it so interesting that such a 'common' modern rose would have such a delightful quality but I have a very large, very happy yellow knockout rose beside a door in my home and as soon it as wakes up in the spring, its FOLIAGE exudes a very strong, very wafting scent of grape hubba bubba bubble gum. It took me a couple years to discover the source simply because I could not fathom at the time that a rose without even a bud could be so fragrant. It's just a silly old knockout rose and yet it is one of the highlights of my garden and something I look forward to every late February, early March.

I've just rambled on pointlessly here.
I'm with you on the influence of the eyes on our sense of smell. Citrus tones are more likely to arise from a rose of a yellow or apricot hue, I think.

A lifetime spent studying the fragrance of the roses in one's garden... sounds like a life well-lived to me. :)

There is also a fragrance of rose decomposition. I think I remember reading that in the book that had a chapter on florist roses--the author walks into a huge refrigerator of roses and says something nice about the fragrance in there, and a worker says oh no, that's rot, it has a kind of sweetish smell.

Fascinating article, and it presents a point of view I have not encountered before. Very informative.

There is also the factor of the nose that is doing the receiving to be considered. Tea roses, for example, can pump out all the tea rose fragrance in the world, but I and others like me simply do not smell it. We humans differ in the variety of chemical receptors for scent we possess.

the perception of scent is utterly subjective since different noses are far more receptive to certain molecules of scent and when that is mixed in with the cultural conditioning in our upbringing, it is just not possible to be at all prescriptive about smell, scent or whatever. Taste and small are deeply personal responses, not only affected by cultural and social mores, but also embedded in various contexts (memory, mood, expression). So much so that children, initially lacking the sense of disgust, for example, are perfectly aligned within their prevailing cultural preferences by the age of 2.
I see why perfumiers like to quantify different notes within aromas but find it less than useful myself as any real indication of either my abilities to detect, or responses to, any particular scent.

A bit like trying to describe the colour blue.....or the taste of anchovies.......or why one plant lifts my heart while another leaves me cold.

I think Kittymoonbeam has a good point with the descriptor of "waxy" for florist roses, and it supports Delbard's original point that roses have fragrance, it's just that many of them are a disappointing type of fragrance. I'm reminded of iris foetida, and other supposedly "fragrant" flowers, where the foetida is a big clue that fragrance in that case means "truly vile". If you flip that, we're supposed to find decomposition smells vile, but I'm not surprised that hoovb reports that as a sweet smell for the author she describes, and rose decomposition is basically what makes them good potpourri anyway.

I would love to join Sidos-House and Porkpal in learning to educate my nose, but I fear my nose is destined to be the dumbest part of my system, with all my allergies and the like. Besides, I'm not sure how much work I want to spend in coaxing a reluctant rose to release some faint amount of scent when it's so much easier to enjoy the visual aspects of the roses already. There are a few roses that knock my socks off with scent, a few more I enjoy to some extent, and many many more that others say smell terrific that are decidedly "meh" to my nose.

I totally agree that some of us are missing necessary receptors as Kim says (though I think I can detect a little of the tea scent), or that there are systematic blocks to some noses (like mine with allergies), but I also wonder if our heads don't have more to do with the scent of roses than just the color. Picture the lady who receives a bouquet of "scentless" roses then sniffs them and says, "They smell wonderful". She might just be saying that to be kind, but if you receive red roses from your sweetheart your head and heart are miles ahead of your nose, and have probably convinced your nose the roses smell great before you ever sniff. Similarly, we might be willing to work harder to coax out or detect the smell of roses we know SHOULD be fragrant, as opposed to say - Sidos-House's fragrant Knockouts.

Look at how little agreement there seems to be when people ask about the most fragrant roses here on Garden Web? There seem to be about 30 or so roses that routinely show up on such lists - Jude the Obscure, Perfume Delight, Double Delight - and such, but even among those that have the stereotypical "rose" smell we don't seem to agree. My Double Delight doesn't bloom very often, but I can't detect a scent from it even indoors under warm humid conditions, and the same for Velvet Fragrance. Obviously conditions and my poor deficient nose affect this. On the other hand, I definitely can smell Perfume Delight and it's such a cloying perfumey artificial smell to me (odd in nature, I admit) that I actively dislike its smell.

I guess my point, if there is one, is that all of our senses are tied up with our emotions, and scent has to be the same. They've done research that we agree to a surprising extent on the relative attractiveness of faces in the abstract (e.g. we like symmetry and big eyes), but that has much less effect on who we actually gravitate to and find attractive in real life. I'll bet that if I tried Delbard's methods I'd find some scents to discuss in the abstract for most roses, but it would take a lot of work to put the scent into words that fall somewhere between "classic rose" and "waxy", and in the end I'd fall back on the dozen or so roses in my yard that curl my toes in fragrance without that kind of effort. The more work I put into finding the scent of a "scentless" rose, the more likelihood that I'd find one, but I'm not sure that effort on my part changes the describable characteristics of the rose itself, just me as the smeller.

Cynthia

Excellent essay, Cynthia.

Thank you for such an interesting thread. I wish my nose was better. Often a rose that others detect a strong smell in is almost scentless for me. I think it might make a difference though to bring it in the house and then make a an effort to concentrate. I admire people like Gregg who can perceive all those notes.

If you go out and collect in a glass bowl the rain from the previous night out of a fragrant rose ( I like La Reine or Madame Issac P or very fragrant HTs such as Pink Peace or Double Delight) You can hold that water in your mouth and smell the perfume for longer than you can if you just put your nose in. It's a different way to smell them but a very nice one too. I never tried to swish the water around my mouth like people do with wine . You get the fragrance and a nice flavor too.

That's really rather romantic, kittymoonbeam. A lovely and unique way to savor a rose.

Dear Cynthia,

The subject of your post is very thought provoking. It was also very thoughtful for you to take the time to expound upon it as you did.

My suspicious, cynical side admittedly popped up as soon as I understood a prominent and financially successful rose breeder, a prominent rose empire figure, Henri Delbard, made the statement that, "all roses have a scent." It prompted me to say to myself, "sure they do, especially those you bred. You, H.D., have everything to gain ($), by encouraging forward thinking rose gardeners/lovers to take a second look, and delve into 'deciphering scent' of essentially poorly scented roses, especially those of your own creation."

In spite of all the ins and outs, and complexities of evaluating rose scent, as H.D. suggests, there are roses, no matter how you 'cut the mustard,' that just don't have much in the scent department to waste your time on. Time spent on concentrating on their other positive aspects, if any, would be more productive.

Do I have to wait until the humidity is at least 85%, on a sunny day with the temperature at least above 75 degrees, after 1:00 PM, and only on days after the Summer Solstice has passed to discover a rose's fragrance, and then convince myself it is fragrant regardless of what my nose is telling me? I cannot be bothered.

Please do not brand me a negative person, I do not believe I am, just tired of being fed, a 'line,' by the experts so called.

For example, I was given a large and expensive gift basket full of: organically grown, gluten free, sugar free, etc., i.e. Yuppie food, of a so called gourmet nature. It came this past Thanksgiving by way of my successful banker nephew, who has money to burn. He spent a small fortune on it. Everything I sampled so far has tasted insipid or stale (sell by dates are all far in the future), a major but expected disappointment.

For example, Heinz or French's Yellow Mustard are hard to beat for flavor and price compared to any outrageous gourmet brand.

Should I be obliged convince myself how wonderful the food is knowing it isn't?..same with no/little scent roses.

Thorntorn

Thanks everyone for chiming in with responses! That is an important cautionary note, Thorntorn, about rose breeders having a possible agenda in promoting the fragrance of their own roses when they may be marginal at best. Certainly Delbard and Kordes roses do not come to mind when I think of fragrance, and I take Clements' statements of "highly fragrant" on a majority of his roses with a skeptical eye, since at least my poor nose can't detect much fragrance in most of his roses. Still, my impression of the Delbard book as a whole was an attempt to break down the components of different rose scents as "recipes" and celebrate the joy of smelling roses - most of the examples of scent combinations in the rest of the book were from OGRs. Also, until recent years I assume that fragrance was a not high priority in rose breeding, when more visual pursuits like high centered HTs or health concerns like BS resistance or hardiness have taken more precedence. For me in zone 5, those health/hardiness concerns are one of my highest priorities and I love the whole clan of (mostly) scentless Kordes and other types of roses. If I have to sacrifice wafting fragrance for that health I gladly will, but I'm glad there are the OGRs and new breeders like David Austin who have brought fragrance back into their lines.

Regardless, I agree with you that it's too much work most of the time to try to detect (or imagine) a scent in a rose that is at best stingy with the scent. It's like trying to train my palate to detect the difference between a $10 bottle and a $50 bottle of wine. I can already tell the difference between truly cheap and a $10 bottle of wine, and frankly I don't WANT to develop a taste for expensive wines - I already have a taste for expensive roses! Sometimes the descriptions of rose scents are rather like those wine taster guides - who wants the taste (or scent) of "tar" or "smoke" in either one?

For me, though, that doesn't mean that roses that don't have much in the scent department aren't worth wasting my time on. With my poor nose, I'd probably be stuck with a dozen or two roses that I could actually smell under normal conditions, and the intriguing look of roses like Red Intuition is totally worth it in my yard even though I can't imagine it having any appreciable scent. I realize that folks like Thorntorn choose roses with fragrance as a top priority, and that's part of the great thing about growing roses - that there's enough diversity of form, scent, growing habits, colors, and other types of roses to satisfy your own personal priorities. I totally agree with Suzy that what speaks to us about a particular rose is very individual and a complex combination of our experiences and priorities not just something that could be prescribed about the rose.

So I agree with Mendocino rose that I wish my nose were better, but I'll settle for enjoying the look of most of my roses and the scent of a few select dear ones. I love the idea kittymoonbeam had to literally drink in some of the scent of those few favorites - I can't see doing that to try to coax a reluctant scent from a rose, but that would be so fun to try with my dear toe-curling fragrant Frances Dubrueil!

Cynthia

Thank you for posting this interesting topic Cynthia; and especially for quoting at length Monsieur Delbard's thoughts on the topic. I am not at all cynical about what he says. It stands to reason to me that people who have devoted their lives to hybridizing roses have a passion for them and hence have insight and vast experience with the many nuances in their makeup and physiological characteristics. The great rose breeders are horticultural artists in my view.

I am as much enamoured with roses for their fragrances as I am with them for their blooms. I always check to see how a rose is rated for fragrance before trialing a new variety. Alas, very often, a rose rated as very fragrant proves to be scentless to my nose in this climate.

I grew OGRS and English Roses on the temperate west coast of British Columbia for a number of years and then grew many of the same roses here in the east where the summers are hot and humid. I immediately noticed that many of the highly fragrant varieties that I grew in BC were either scentless, or virtually so here in Ontario.

The statement you make: "He reminds us that roses diffuse their scents beset at a certain temperature (18-20 C) as well as humidity." Is wholly bourn out by my experience. I go back to the west coast quite frequently and my mother in law still has many roses that I planted in her garden, almost invariably the roses in her garden are more fragrant than the same varieties in my garden. Generally the high temperatures in the Fraser Valley of BC are in the high teens to low twenties during the first flush. Here the temperatures during the first flush are often in the high twenties to low thirties during that time and the lows are often in the low twenties. I had come to my own unproven conclusion based on these annecdotal observations that the higher temperatures were the likely culprit and that the volatile essential oils that make a rose fragrant were evaporating much more rapidly and making the rose less fragrant here in Ontario. I often pick blooms and bring them into the air conditioned house to cool, and sometimes that works, especially if they are not fully opened.

I have also done some experiments with people who visit my garden, having them smell blooms and asking them to tell me if they can smell the fragrance. There are always differences in the varieties that are fragrant and scentless depending on who is asked. Many times one person says a certain roses is very fragrant and someone else detects no scent.

So I fully agree, it often takes some work, thought and desire to coax a bloom to treat you to its fragrance. But the effort is invariably worth it.

Cheers, Rick

After re-reading my response, I began to think I came across too hard. Cynthia, thanks for your discretion in not labeling me a sour old goat. I'll try harder to be more objective in my evaluations or at least keep the hard felt ideas to myself.

You presented a well thought out and very interesting post. Thanks again for sharing it with us.

Thorntorn

Personally, I think gift baskets are always a disappointment, flavorwise.

(Unless the contents are made from scratch by the giver.)

;)

No problem, Thorntorn - you already marked your comments with statements that indicated you were venting a bit, so it was easy to recognize them in the spirit intended. All of us at some time come to GW to vent about something that's tripped us the wrong way in the gardening world, and there's usually some truth to the reasons behind the message. I appreciate you chiming in with revised insights, though, but we wouldn't be calling you a sour old goat regardless (well, unless you start chewing on spare tin cans or something - smile).

Rideauroselad, your comments about fragrance in your two locations are very thought-provoking and echo some observations about fragrance going on in other threads. It's interesting that you've moved climates to a MORE humid region and seen a drop in fragrance levels, since those of us in dry zones tend to attribute the extremely limited fragrance "wafting" to the humidity. In your case, it clearly seems to be the temperature that's at fault, and it's true that our summers are well above 18-20 C most of the time. Maybe that's why I can detect a little wafting scent in my hyacinths in the late spring, but nothing wafting from even highly scented roses any time after June.

If I ever get a decent fall flush after the weather cools I'll do a little more detective work to explore the relative role of heat vs. humidity in my climate, since even in fall we're pretty dry. At least it gives me something to hope for as far as fragrance goes.

Cynthia

Wonderful observations here, thank you all! In the past I've had the bad habit of leading visitors to Blush Noisette, Marie Pavie, Oklahoma then Mystic Beauty so they don't miss my "most fragrant" roses. I really never thought Spice, Alister Stella, or Jude the Obscure were worth a sniff. AND i've had a friend tell me that Golden Celebration "just doesn't smell like a rose"..

Better to follow my visitor around and let them see what they discover...realizing that they may help me discover fragrance where I thought there was none!

In this hot, humid SE Virginia climate, I wonder if placing a very fragrant rose where it would get some afternoon shade would help--?

Barbara - yes, thanks for reviving this thread. It was interesting to see everyone's discussions, and you're right that not only do we have different abilities to smell roses but a very different perception of what smells "nice" or "right" for a rose. Musk and myrrh are two rose fragrances that can fall into either of those categories.

Noseometer, from here on out I'm going to stop lamenting that I can't smell most roses. My word, it hadn't occurred to me how unsettling it could be to have a sensitive discerning nose. I'm going to guess that you don't make alfalfa tea for your roses and have never sprayed Liquid Fence to keep away the critters, since the lingering rotten egg smell that goes away for most of us quickly would probably stay forever for you. Just think of all the professions that are closed to you with a highly sensitive nose - dentist, shoe sales person, sanitation engineer, truck driver, daycare provider, nursing home attendant, bartender, and virtually anything in the restaurant or food industry. Even for me, I don't think I could work in a donut shop because just walking into one of those places makes my clothes reek of that musty sweet smell all day. Too bad I don't have the same aversion to eating them, since there were leftovers from a meeting at work today and well....

Just curious noseometer - since you say most roses have a scent to you, do you find that the classic Valentine's day red roses in cut bouquets have scents? I can smell something vague once they've dried so there may be a scent, and obviously different roses may be used for this purpose in reality, but I was curious if that's a pleasant smell I might be missing.

Cynthia