Oh that is a huge kitchen. Mine is half the size and only needed some electrical update but it still cost me $4000. Plumbing was way worse.

nightowl, I hadn't considered that. It would mean the base cabinets on either side would each need to drop from 36" to 30". The cost would remain pretty even, though. I had dismissed the bigger sinks like the Kohler Stages 45, because this sink is our clean-up sink and not a prep sink. That being said, we generate a lot of dirty dishes and the counter is often littered with them. Having a super large sink would be a bigger landing place and it would hide them until they were loaded in the dishwasher.

My GC gave a total price, but when we said, that's over our budget by $x.xx he offered specific suggestions to get back into budget (i.e., that bathroom cabinet we talked about is a thousand, the dining room built in is about $3,500, and so on). So we were able to cut out some items and up our budget a small amount to keep other items. Is your GC not able to give you broad strokes suggestions like that on how to get back into budget?

crl_, I'm hoping he comes back with that kind of info. He did not do so in the initial meeting.

GC's prefer to keep you in the dark. You have to trust them and live with it. You really need to research them before trusting them...

I disagree with Sophie about suffering thru fixed price. I had both detailed and one number pricing for fixed price project.

I refused to use someone who gives me a number without a breakdown of scope of work and say trust me.

One of the bid that had a breakdown was illuminating. A vanity of 36"w X 16"d X 6"h was $5000 for an unfinished plywood box. One of the pros on this forum thought it was completely justified. I thought about buying 800 yrs old antiques from Sotheby's or Christie's for a third of the price. Instead I'll be getting a custom fully finished cabinet for $60 from Conestoga.

The tiling came out to $200/SF for labor. The GC's excuse was that his tile guys were worth it.

I don't believe in nickel and dime but you need to know the approximate ballpark for each scope of work.

I completely agree with Beachem; however, in my neighborhood I did not find any contractors who are willing to provide information. There was high demand for their services so they could set the terms. Hubby and I became the GC. We did our research. It worked out right, but our job was more of an update than a remodel.

(I highly suspect the OP is in California..:) Because we also had to put a couple outlets in the countertop because of existing countertop windows..The kitchen is smallish, I saw no point in them, not mentioning already they had to cut out one of my precious drawers, and drill through new countertops..The city won't budge. Whatever. I got used to them. What else could I do.)

Anyway. When our GC gave us his first bid the bid was too high for us. He wanted to work with us though(little did he know..) so he gave us another bid that excluded kitchen, and included labor and rough materials only, allowances on certain things like doors, and all the finishes were on us(except several things in the addition he included)

Now as I read here I realize that the first bid was fixed price, and the reworked one was Cost Plus. I think.

Sophie is absolutely right-it does take much more time and design and thought. And -who said "creeping elegance"? I forgot. But it's a wonderful description of what happens..)) You cut on something, for sure, you cut on a lot, but elegance continues to creep..:) It's not even elegance, it's normal human desire to do something well when doing it.

And yes, our GC's being pretty transparent. He wouldn't break all costs for us, and we didn't ask him to. It's his business. But if some additional problem appeared, or additional cost, like roof insulation that had to be changed, or HVAC (don't ask)-he'd send his sub to give us a bid/tell us how much it would cost, and was okay with us hiring another sub if we could find a cheaper local bid.(His guys drive from northern LA-by the time they get to us, their mood worsens, and I understand them.)

He didn't want to do it with the kitchen though-he pretty much insisted we'd go with his cabinetmaker, but got us a cheaper price with him. Looking back, I think it was a good way to go about it. Kitchen is too major a project.

Of course we're over our budget. But yes, the decisions were ours. Sometimes they were inevitable of course. If the house doesn't have insulation-you kinda inclined to put insulation. If the black paper on the roof is too old-you think "okay..it's something that needs to be done". Insulation, black paper, etc are not elegant and no one sees them. Irritating, but what can you do.

Our GC is about as reliable as a flashlight stuffed in a drawer and forgotten about till your power goes out. He is like, "I'll have the roof delivered and installed on Monday"... 3 weeks later, nothing.. "I'll be out there in the morning to get the water out of the house and cleaned up..." .... "nothing..."

I think I could do better hiring the kid next door to watch the house for me.. lol

I am whining on a GC thread. lol.. now.. back to your cabinets!.. hehe

R

To put it very bluntly.What I pay my subs is none of your business.What I'm making off of your job is none of your business.You tell me the SOW and I bring you a contract with my price for that SOW.I also quote allowances for things that have not been decided yet such as type of flooring,tile,fixtures and so forth.

If my bid is for more than you can afford I'm always happy to sit down with you and talk about where we can save some money.I won't detail my bids because that always cost me money.If I did detail bids such as X costs X amount of money then I have HO running around telling me "Just saw an add where you can get X for $5 less here or we can save $100 by getting X here.

That slows the whole process of your remodel,cost me money and then you are unhappy when the job takes longer than proposed.

There is a lot more to it than that but that's the down and dirty.

When you're doing remodeling, you have two pockets. One is the Scope of Work Pocket, the other the Financing/Cash Pocket. You can take from or add to either of these pockets as you please.

You do not have a third pocket, which is how much I'm paying for subs or material or charging for markup, overhead, or profit. Of course if I allowed you access to my pocket, you'd have no incentive to look into either of yours.

Joseph: I was in Florida for 12 years.Wish I would have met you then.We might have been friends.

First, the OP isn't asking to know the profit margin of her GC. She, as pretty much everyone else on here, is trying to figure out how to best manage her costs by asking what others have done. In our case, the GC did provide the electrical sub because he thought there were places there where we could save some money without a massive impact on our project. Additionally we had specified upfront that we would be providing the bulk of the finishes, and he had given a few allowances in lieu of firm prices, and had us work directly with his suppliers to pick out what we wanted (fireplace, HVAC, windows, exterior and garage doors). This gave us the ability to make transparent price/value decisions.

A good GC doesn't stomp his feet and say 'take it or leave it'. He is knowledgeable and understands that certain items cost a lot for little reward, but also that his clients don't understand that, so those are potential areas for saving money. OPs project isn't some piddling repair - it is a major project that requires strong collaboration between owner and contractor.

Whenever this topic is revisited, I am curious about the contractor's initial reaction to the budget. If the GC says "No problem, no problem" then shows up with a bid 40% higher than budget, the contractor was wrong. The problem however, isn't in the bid, it is in the setting expectations stage. This posting didn't clearly state what comments the contractor made about the budget at the initial discussion but I would say that is where the situation first started to go off track.

Contractor should discuss how to lower the project cost closer to the original budget provided by the homeowner. If price is fixed, that means changing either the scope or the schedule. For a GC's project, being flexible with the schedule and waiting for deals isn't practical; that option is usually only viable for a DIY project. Schedule changes might work if we enlarge the meaning to wait to save up more money or defer some portions to a second phase.

The other option is to change the scope of the project and this is where the GC needs to earn his money and offer some options. Part of the value of hiring a professional is assistance with making choices which offer high return for the required expense. Certainly, the contractor's expenses and profits are not up for discussion but a client isn't being unreasonable by asking for some basic cost breakdowns. Value is measured by comparing cost required to benefit received so the contractor has to provide guidance of costs and the client has to provide guidance on categorizing absolute requirements, desires, and wish list items.

Linda :I agree with parts of your post but not all.

My question to you is : How much time and effort should a contractor have to dedicate to a potential client without signing a contract and making any money?

When you charge for estimates people want to call the guy with "Free estimtes"But when I charge for estimates I'm willing to spend a good deal of time with the customer and sometimes make some drawings to show them if I feel they are serious .

It's kind of a no win situation on my part .So I charge for estimates which gets rid of some of the tire kickers and allows me to sit down with the HO and spend some time going over their project.

If I get the job this this is taken off of the price.I think it's fair for all parties but some disagree.I can't spend half my life talking to tire kickers and making no money.I like the same luxuries in life that the rest of you do. Eating,gas in the truck,a warm place to sleep at night.Contractors are people too.

@Precision Carpentry - Free estimates are a marketing device and have to be considered an overhead expense, in my opinion. My partner has been a painting contractor for years so his free estimate is an on-site sales call. He knows his standard material costs and any other materials are billed to his customer.

I absolutely agree with the your point about not having a signed contract and not wanting to waste time until you know you have a very high chance of a signed contract. One technique he uses for situations too complicated for a verbal estimate is to request some information from the potential customer before the bid is prepared...no written info forthcoming, no proposal. He might ask for a list of rooms with number of doors and windows and proposed colors...the exact info isn't as important as the need for them to exert effort to prove an ongoing interest in the process.

Anyone who only wants "free" estimates doesn't understand that a free estimate is worth exactly what you paid for it; rather similar to getting free advice. A token charge for the time invested is very appropriate in my opinion.

Precision Carpentry, have you read all of my responses on here? I feel that you are being freely abrupt and brash without noting that I am not being unreasonable and trashing this GC. I asked if this was normal practice and why. I've gotten many excellent answers and it has helped a great deal.

We like this GC. He has a good reputation. We're just frustrated at the moment. We have invested a lot of time in this project, as has the GC, to get it to this stage. We understand he needs to make a profit and we want him to be able to do that. We are frustrated that his contract was $41,000 over what we had set for our budget. In our initial meeting, which was conducted at our house, he gave his estimation of what the project would run which was $100,000, not including appliances.

We have kept to our initial plan that we spoke to him about. There has not been project creep on our end, but there has been on his. One of the things we liked about him was that he looked at the project and the house as a whole to make sure we were looking at the big picture. I think this is where we got some project creep that will probably need to be scaled back. For instance, when we were discussing the kitchen floor my BF said that it seemed really solid, but if he were to jump it did flex a little bit. I have never noticed this floor to be anything other than solid. But when a 200 lb. adult jumps it does give a wee bit. I got to witness the flexing and it was very minor. In my opinion, this is not an issue, especially considering that we are going with vinyl and not porcelain tile. Part of the work the GC included was to add support to the floor joists. I seriously doubt that is needed. I'm not a professional, though, so it will merit discussion. We'd like to see things like this with numbers so we can weigh whether or not we care to address issues like this during this remodel or at a later date, if at all.

Throughout the selection of materials process we were concerned that we may have been going over budget, so that is why we asked to see some numbers from the vendors as we were going. We simply needed to know some rough numbers so that we could do our part to keep things in budget.

You may not like having your time wasted, but as the HO I don't care to have my time wasted either - quite a bit of my vacation time was spent meeting with vendors - and I don't care to waste other people's' time. There are a lot of people involved that have given us their time expecting that their contribution would result in a positive financial situation for them. If we fail to get a contract that we can sign, then this was wasted effort on all fronts. I don't want to be a "tire kicker."

Bottom line, your home, your money, your way. You may go through a few people that disagree, that is okay, they can do that.

Don't be frustrated, you are not asking anything or doing anything we all have not done before too.

$200 a square foot for labor on tile??? Did I read that correctly? That would be $200,000 for a 1,000 sq feet of tiling. That's absurd.

Lily'smom, the $41K over budget is adding the cabinetry and countertop bid to his contract total. He left this bid off his contract, although the bid was submitted to him. NOTE: The vendor is a company that he routinely does business with.

We have since met with the vendor and selected a different cabinet maker. We were told that it'll drop our cost 20-25%.

aprilneverends, we're in South Central Wisconsin. :)

@lindanewc - that is either a typo, a misunderstanding, or (my guess) it includes a decent amount of prep work to make the area ready to accept the tile, and/or a difficult to work with tile in an intricate pattern over a small area.

@linda the tiling was $10k for a 49 SF shower area. Planned tile was porcelain 12x6.

The quote was $61k vs my express $10k budget for a tiny powder room/shower remodel. It also doesn't include materials. Everything is already there and we're just changing out materials.

I think he thought that I wasn't serious about my budget and we also get the city discount all the time. (Jacked up price by 200-1000%).

They followed up with me for 3 months to see when I would like to start the project despite me telling them that the budget was completely out of my ballpark.

By the way, the interior designers here charge $400-$1000/hr for their consulting services. I scratched using designers after asking about hourly rate. Fixed designed services would add about $25k per project for the designer's time.

The joys of living in So Cal.

Seems like if his bid was under 100K he met your budget goal. When you tell someone your budget, you are telling them what you'd want their portion to be. The cabinets are OUTSIDE that 100K number, because they are not part of what he is furnishing

The cabinets were not supposed to be OUTSIDE of the bid. He knows what our budget is.

In all honesty, whatever was inside or outside of their budget was what they discussed, and I am not sure where folks assume the budget was only about the GC cost.

The OP asked if it was normal to request all bids and numbers. I think they got that answer. It is normal for someone, not for others, and what you request is your business and welcome to request anything.

What the OP also said was SHE expected the cabinets to be inside the bid and they were left out. So, the HO gave them a budget with cabinets and counters of 100k.

The GC returned a bid that was 40% over AND still did not include the cabinets and counters.

It sounds like the GC just needs to be told, "We have a budget of 100k. We are going to have to make allowances because that is for the entire project, your work, all bids, all materials, cabinets and counters included (list all items you want to include) and reiterate the final bottom line for all listed items.

Let us know how it works. If you do not get what you want, find another GC. Ask for what details you want and they can say yes or no.

Define the items included and ask them to have options and the upgrade costs of those options so YOU can determine where and when you want to go outside the budget they are given, not them,

Russ

When I met with a GC recently, he offered to break out categories of things so I can see how that affected the cost; like skylight = x more, part of the floor outside the kitchen = x more, etc.

i think people are being too unfair to the OP, it's your money ask for whatever you want. The GC knows you have invested a lot of time and could be pressing to see how far you are willing to stretch your budget. You are now just negotiating against yourself by trying to figure out what to remove without specified costs. That being said, I wouldn't expect to see individual subcontractor quotes with profit and overhead broken out separately.

Thanks, queensinfo.

We really don't care to see that detailed of a breakout. What we were hoping for was to be able to compare option A vs option B for things like faucets and flooring.

I didn't read that you asked for options.

Jim Mat, I didn't word it well in my original post, but yes, that's what we were asking for from the subcontractors.

Does not sound like you want to see what the profit is or what the costs are. OTOH asking for sub bids is just that, which may be causing some confusion.

Trying to trim out 40k is a big task and won't likely happen without some sacrifices. May not even be doable. It all depends on how the contractor came up with the original estimate-a) doing a rough but moderately detailed list b) assessing the job based on his best guess with some quick addition off the top of his head. I have a hunch it might be "b".

It's a shame you are this far and in this position but it does happen.

FWIW- people don't realize just how long it takes to do an accurate estimate (as indicated by others above). Folks say it is just part of the job- well they also want the job for less money. On a job of this scope it would certainly take a full day and likely up to 3 to put together an accurate detailed bid. Split the difference-not many contractors are going to put in 2 days on a job without a contract. Do that a couple of times a month and the prices have to rise.

At the same time no one that I know of-contractor, designer, architect, wants to be in the position of being above the discussed budget. Creates a large chance of either losing the job or bad feelings. It is NOT common practice to push it to see what you will really spend. Sure we all believe you lie about your budget-statistically it is supposedly by 10%. How each deals with that varies- in most cases the client can eat that up with changes before lunch so no point in pushing.

In any case-the approach I try to use for budget with clients is-#1 early in the process, 2 start with high guesses or accurate bids/pricing, 3- have a clear written scope. Most days I can be close but not all.

A very large difference between my end of things and the contractors though is that really is part of my job as a designer-to help set the budget. Contractors don't usually see all the paperwork as part of what they do-that's why they swing hammers.

When it comes time to trim- which it almost always does- the best method is to get a list of what are the big tickets, items where there is a lot of room. No one ever asked me to trim $200, it is always thousands (though rarely 10s of). I wish you luck, you and the GC have your work cut out for you.

Just an aside- saw a reference to "creeping elegance" gave me a chuckle- to me that is an oxymoron. We used "elegant" for a while in our marketing but realized it means very different things to different people. My sister would understand "creeping elegance" My favorite definition is more like -

The French aviator, adventurer, and author Antoine de
Saint-Exup'ery, probably best known for his classic children's
book "The Little Prince", was also an aircraft designer. He
gave us perhaps the best definition of engineering elegance
when he said "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not
when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing
left to take away."

I understand your frustration. This is an old quote I received from a contractor when we were only considering a bathroom cosmetic upgrade.

$10,756.85 Bathroom

Although the price was very specific, this is what was sent. I presume there were price caps on some of these items he planned to supply but it was like pulling teeth to get him to provide details for allowances. Needless to say, we didn't use this GC.

1. Demolish and remove all tiles from walls and floor

2. Remove and dispose of toilet, vanity and medicine cabinet

3. Supply and install 110 square feet of floor and wall tiles

(wall tiles only in tub area)

4. Skim coat ceiling to a smooth finish removing the textured finish

5. Supply and install one (1) toilet style and model specified by client

6. Supply and install bathroom vanity

7. Supply and install wood surface-mount medicine cabinet with beveled

mirror

8. Supply and install matching linen cabinet above toilet

9. Install mixing valve supplied by client-

10.Install vanity sink faucet supplied by client

11.Supply and install one 24”inch by 90”inch solid core door

12.Supply and install storage cabinet in hamper space after hamper

removal

13.Paint walls and ceiling in client’s choice of colors

It's a common complaint from contractors I use for my day job that they constantly need to review and revise their bids. I've had a GC that I like not win the last 4 projects because even after revising his bids, he was still too high on some items. We have an entire team of corporate staff that reviews and compares bids across the country allowing for regional bumps. It takes days to prepare an accurate bid for our commercial projects and when changes are requested that adds on more days for all the subs to sharpen their pencil. I write all this to say that sometimes you just can't use your preferred contractor if the numbers don't line up. Every project has a budget.

Beachem, I don't believe that a shower tile job that cost $10K was for only 49 sq ft of tile. If the floor area was a 7 x 7 square, with 3 tiled walls of 8 foot x 7 feet, that's over 200 sq ft of tile, more if the shower wasn't square or had a tiled ceiling. For quality work with expensive materials in a high cost locale, $50/sq foot isn't out of line.

There is no way the a little tightening of the belt is going to find a 35% savings. Either the bid contained a simple math error, or the scope of the project has to be scaled back.

Could it be possible that your GC is an elite-level "boutique" builder known for only the highest-level projects? Maybe you need to troll the 84 Lumber parking lot?

To the person who paid $200 sq ft tile labor, to quote Wally & the Beav, "you got tooken"

Casey

"If my bid is for more than you can afford I'm always happy to sit down with you and talk about where we can save some money."

As posted above.

Any updates Cheryl?

Our contractor is having us pay the plumber and electrician directly and we have separate contracts with them. He did help in terms of finding them and getting bids. I figured it was because he doesn't want to be taxed on their work. Also, there is a lot of licensing, insurance and paperwork involved in doing work in a NYC co-op, (EPA certificate, anyone?) and the plumber and electrician had to provide their own. I also had to have insurance and worker's comp proof for the countertop installer, floor tile installer and appliance delivery, all of whom I hired separately. I did not have to collect paperwork from the laborers or backsplash tile people who came through the contractor. The plumber just finished his work. I made out the check to the plumbing company, but gave it to the contractor because he wanted to check the work first, and he'll turn it over to the plumber.

smm5525

"Any updates Cheryl?"

Right off the bat, the GC has found $10K in savings by eliminating several add-ons that we found weren't necessary. So, that moves us closer to closing the $41K gap between budget and contract.

Since then we've been waiting for him to get back to us with a broad breakdown of costs by category. He called yesterday and said he'd work on it today and have it ready for tomorrow when he comes to our house along with another electrician for a second electrical bid. We're hoping he doesn't poison the well by mentioning what the first electrician had planned.

This time around we're going to word a few things differently which we believe the first time around possibly left misleading impressions. Specifically, we'll be saying we need to have a car charger wired into the garage that requires a 50 amp circuit rather than saying, "Oh, we're getting a Tesla next year, so we need to make sure the garage is wired for the charger." Because although it's a Tesla, it's the lower end $30K model and not $100K+. The first guy was ready to replace our outside electric pedestal and put a dedicated line into the house specifically for the car. Huge overkill. We have two electric cars now and the new car will not require higher amperage. It seemed like he formed an idea and wasn't easily dissuaded regardless of spec sheets we provided him. (We know from a previous estimate that putting in a new electric panel and wiring the car charger will run approximately $2K.)

We have also changed our cabinetry selection. We went from Plato Inovae in walnut to Woodland Artizen (Shaker doors) in cherry with a caramel stain. We also opted for a less expensive mudroom bench and found some savings there. Our costs dropped from $39,330 to $27,800; a $10,930 savings once install prices are accounted for. Although I'm pretty sad to say goodbye to the walnut, I'm really pleased with our second choice and believe they'll be beautiful.

So, we're making headway. :)

jupidupi, thanks for sharing. This may be the way our GC will be handling the cabinetry then.

That's great Cheryl! It's hard to cut back on finishes when you really want to cut back on labor costs! Sadly I'm in the same boat. Just found out the two windows we want to add is going to cost more money than anticipated because we now need extra structural support on both ends of the house. I wasn't planning on my guest bedroom to be torn apart for the kitchen on the other end of the house. Who knew adding two Windows would cost upwards of $10k? :(

jupidupi By paying each sub directly and contracting with them directly, you have divided the responsibilities and liabilities. That is why you had to ensure that each sub was properly bonded and insured, handle payment and the payment schedule and you will need to work out any conflicts. Be sure to get lien releases from the subs. We are also renovating in NYC.

Katrina, I'm not sure what you mean by lien releases. We've already paid everyone in full.

We have signed a contract - with a different remodeler and it's in budget! We're so excited. The GC we were so frustrated with did lower his proposal, but was still $14K over budget. In the end, we feel that we are not his target customer and that's okay. We have found a GC that fits us and we are moving forward.

We have a rough estimate of when work will start and will have a more exact date once he has a chance to plug us into their system. He expects they'll start work the end of October or the beginning of November.

Monday we meet with our cabinets guy to go over things one last time before placing the order. We called and secured our granite today and then I had to swing by to ogle it and touch it. LOL

I also started looking for alternative backsplash tile options, because the glass tile we picked out before is ridiculously expensive it turns out. I've found a good alternative that is $8.99 sq. ft compared to what The Tile Shop estimates the other one ran at $35.00/sq ft.

We love that the GC we are going with will tell us that Option A costs $x more than Option B. That's the information we need so we can do our part to keep things in budget.

Yay Cheryl! Glad it worked out for you :)

Awesome... pictures or it did not happen :P

R

Russ,

Dang it! I should have snapped a picture while we were sitting at the table signing! I guess you'll just have to trust me. :)

Hi Cheryl Hewitt, How have you liked your Woodland Artizen cabinets? We're looking at that line and can't find much info from owners. Mostly want to make sure they have tough finish that stands up to wear and tear. Thanks!

HU-180224990, we like them a lot. They've stood up well. Drawers open and close well, even with heavy dishes in them. No complaints. :) Our cleaner has caused a few dings with her steam mop and moving fast like a force of nature, but I wouldn't say that has anything to do with the manufacturer. The overall finish is still the same as when installed and it handles cleaning well.

Cheryl Hewitt Thanks so much for the report! It helps to hear from an owner who has had them a few years.

HU-180224990, happy to help.