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sheppardlake

General Contractor Responsibility

sheppardlake
6 years ago

I recentlay completed a sizable remodel on my master suite and living room. My GC was really wonderful with the exception of one thing. In my master bath, we agreed to high counters like one has in the kitchen (36”). The counterincluded a backlit quartz top. Upon completion the height is just over 39”. This is high on its own, but add even low-profile vessel sinks, and it’s super high.


I am extremely unhappy. Is it the GC’s responsibility to make this right? Or is it my responsibility? To me, it feels like she should have managed the counter height to accommodate for the additional height from the backlit countertop. Please let me know what protocol is on this. Thank you!!

Comments (38)

  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    6 years ago

    The vessel sink already adds height to a bathroom counter , who designed that space/ That is who is responsible. A contractor does what they are told.

    sheppardlake thanked Patricia Colwell Consulting
  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago

    Your designer is the culprit. Your designer is who makes the plan that the contractor follows. If you “just told him” that you wanted high vanity and vessel sinks without having a measured diagram showing the height and how that worked with the sink, then you failed as the job designer. He built what you told him to build. You just don’t like the results because you didn’t design it well.

    Any actual kitchen and bath designer could have predicted the results that you will now have to pay to have redone.

    sheppardlake thanked _sophiewheeler
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  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Well. I'd just be dying to see the detailed drawing for the contractor/installer that showed every single dimension on the vanity, from the inches floor to vanity top before lights and top, , the inches for the lighting, the thickness of the top, and of course the vessel sink.

    I'm sure no drawing exists. "Agreeing" to a 36 inch height with top and undermounted sink, is far different than adding lights and a vessel sink. For all we know these things were a "hey, lets do something really cool" afterthought that destroyed the 36 inch high concept, a common vanity height these days...........and turned it into an uncommon and uncomfortable bath element, resembling a bar.

    sheppardlake thanked JAN MOYER
  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Patricia and Sophie Wheeler, the designer and contractor are one in the same. She’s been in business for 20 years and did a beautiful job on everything except this. There was an architect as well. All drawings were professionally commissioned and everything was permitted. We talked at length about what I wanted prior to the drawing phase. Nothing was added afterwards and it was her suggestion to use vessel vs undermount sinks. I was not the designer - just a client working with a professional. Jan Moyer, I will take a look at those drawings.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Okay. ....help me. There WAS a full drawing of this vanity in its finished state, with ALL dimensions? She was the designer and showed this to you? In other words.....who signed on the dotted line and approved it? If that's you, you don't have a ( LONG in this case) leg to stand on.

    She may have ACTED as the designer. Plenty of contractors can lay out a room, even build a 36 inch tall vanity. That alone will not make them a designer, who considers all the CONSEQUENCES. of each element in any individual design, for any purpose and in any room. It's like saying I want a 24 x 84 tall pantry in my kitchen. Then what?

    sheppardlake thanked JAN MOYER
  • Judy Mishkin
    6 years ago

    my designer provided detailed plans for where my kitchen cabinets were to be installed, but that didnt prevent the installation crew from pretending that plans didnt exist and nailing up the cabinets where they dang well pleased. they acted as though they were doing me a favor moving them to where the plans clearly showed they were supposed to be installed.

    the plans are the bible. if the plans show a 36" work height for your sink, then thats on the installer. if they dont, its on you.

    but while you are fixing things, a top mounted vessel sink on a 36" surface might be too tall as well. as long as you are fixing things, go to a 35 or 34" surface.

    sheppardlake thanked Judy Mishkin
  • PRO
    JudyG Designs
    6 years ago

    You wanted a 36” comfort height vanity. You got a 39” vanity? How did that happen? From where did the extra 3 ” come? 39” would work if you had a drop in or under mount sink, but not a vessel.

    Was it made clear in all this paper work that you requested a vessel? If so, then, yes, I would say it is her mistake.





    sheppardlake thanked JudyG Designs
  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Post the actual vanity design drawing. I’ll take bets on the responsible party here.

  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Jan, I went back to the drawings and I don’t have the ones that show that level of detail. I will have to request them from her. I didn’t sign anything saying 39” was what I wanted or approved. I approved the overall (e.g., layouts, etc.). Joseph - amen to that! There were many times that happened. I’m not a designer and and definitely need all the help I can get! I appreciated the guidance that was provided - again, except in this one area.


    JudyG, the additional 3” came from a backlit quartz countertop. My thinking is that the build plans did not take into account the top. The counters were built to the plan but the plan probably didn’t show a 3” countertop. She was the one who said I needed to get vessel sinks. I agreed because I like the look of them. I honestly did not expect everything to be this high. Originally she had sinks that were 6” high. I had to eat that cost and get new sinks that were lower profile. I’ve included a photo.

    Sophie, my sense is that you have been screwed over by some clients. I’m really sorry if that’s the case. I’m not that person. I’m the person who flexes and flows with this. I came over and grilled out for the sub-contractors and provided snacks and beverages. I gave gift cards to the ones who worked on the weekend to meet a deadline so we wouldn’t be behind schedule. I actually love my GC/designer - we have become friends through this process and I’ve have been really pleased with everything except this. I spent $250K on a remodel of which the bathroom was only a part. I neither requested nor approved a counter this height.

  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Oh Jan, she did not show me the drawn out finished state with all the dimensions. She has a masters in interior design as well as being a GC. I saw work she did before hiring her. And, as I mentioned, I believe this was an honest mistake - just not taking the countertop into account when providing plans to the subs.

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    There are 2 things contributing to this. The counter build up and the use of the vessel sink. All on top of a tall vanity. A vessel sink requires a lower than 36”H vanity. But you specifically requested a 36” H vanity. Then there is the Counter buildup. A standard 2cm-3cm top with a standard under mount sink is what works for a 36” H vanity But you specifically requested a 36”H vanity. Not that the whole installation be at a 36” height after it came together.

    I’d have personally told you that you can’t have what you want. Not all 3. Pick the most important first, and the other choices flow from that priority.

    Get rid of the vessel sink in favor of a glass under mount. Maybe in an amber color. That should make it usable. Otherwise it is rip everything out and start over.

    sheppardlake thanked _sophiewheeler
  • PRO
    Brickwood Builders, Inc.
    6 years ago

    I think you need to sit down and have a good discussion with your GC/designer. If you have a good relationship as you indicate, you should both be able to work this out. There is probably some miscommunication on everyone's part and both sides may have to give some. You are going to get a lot of mixed responses here.

    Our company actually does provide very specific drawings with all the measurements indicated for all cabinetry/countertops for every project. It's the only way to make sure people are communicating. Once signed off, the drawings are the gospel.

    sheppardlake thanked Brickwood Builders, Inc.
  • Chessie
    6 years ago

    I'm no designer, but if I request a 36" height counter, I would expect that the top of the counter be at 36". Doesn't matter what the counter is made of. That should be taken into consideration of the total height. Sounds like she overlooked this detail.

    sheppardlake thanked Chessie
  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    6 years ago

    Please don't beat me for saying this: Over design, no matter how glam, is always a great opportunity for a disaster. UNLESS.... see all above and much discussion as it still all comes down to consequences of each and every detail. .

    Be glad you didn't hire me. I'd have talked you out of the lights, and the vessel. The first not necessary, and the second, just inconvenient for cleaning and daily use. Fine in a small powder room. Far too many beautiful materials in the world to make a supremely complicated master bath.. And I do not mean bland! But.....jmho : )

    sheppardlake thanked JAN MOYER
  • PRO
    Carolina Kitchen & Bath
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I'd sit down calmly and talk to the designer/contractor. Explain what you thought you'd be getting and where the differences are. Ask what you can do about it as a team. Tell her that you're not looking to lay blame, just to figure out who to fix the problem and move forward. The discussion will eventually involve the cost to fix it. Don't demand that it be fixed for free, not even once. When it comes to cost, offer to split it with them. If that's not possible, ask for at least a discount.

    Sophie won't be happy with this answer but in my experience, I've seen that customers get much farther when they approach a problem looking for a solution than when they stamp their feet and demand it for free. Maybe your designer will say that she should have caught this. Keep the focus on how to fix it, not who's to blame, and you'll get a lot farther with a lot fewer antacids.

    sheppardlake thanked Carolina Kitchen & Bath
  • auntthelma
    6 years ago

    I'm unhappy with the 'blame the customer' attitude. Looks like there was a failure to communicate. Of course, if I say I want a 36" high vanity, I expect the countertop to be included in my request. Why would I want the vanity cabinet to be a separate measure?

    Anyway, it looks quite beautiful. Can some of the cabinet be taken off the bottom?

    sheppardlake thanked auntthelma
  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thank you, everyone! Jan, I completely appreciate your perspective. And it was the designer who recommended all of the things you disagreed with. I chose the material for the countertop and she suggested backlighting. The rest you know from above. This is my first venture with a vessel and I agree with you completely!

    Sophie, I would love to do undermounting but because of the light box, it can’t be done. It could potentially be reworked to not have 3” of quartz - just a flat surface with lights underneath. The way it’s currently designed, there are supports inside the counter preventing an undermount from being installed.

    Aunt Thelma, I’m hoping something like that can happen. It really is beautiful and I want to be reasonable.

    My background is leadership development and coaching, so the convo with my contractor will be professional and not meant to lay blame. At the same time, after the amount of money I’ve invested in this, the well is dry! Thank you all again.

  • PRO
    JudyG Designs
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Base cabinet height is 34.5”,,,that leaves 1.5” for counter (which would include underlayment) to make 36”. Is this correct, anyone? Now I am going to add a 3” counter. I am only coming up with cabinet and counter at 37.5, not 39”.

    Something in that design is wrong (obviously). Is the toe kick too high? Is the slab more than 3 inches? How much does a light box add to underlayment?

    Hate to beat a dead horse…but it is a lot of money spent not be be happy with the result.

    I think, sheppardlake, you should, at least , have that professional conversation with her; the premise being you are unhappy with the result and need a resolution.

    Nothing unreasonable by just telling the truth about a perfectly normal reaction…disappointment.

    sheppardlake thanked JudyG Designs
  • PRO
    Avoree Ferreira-Dunlap
    6 years ago

    I have never once had a customer request a specific box height, unless they were a contractor. Homeowners, although they may call it the vanity height, are almost always referring to the finish height, including counter. Yes, this may be ill informed, but as a designer, I feel that it is my responsibility to inform. I would explain to my client that if you have this height plus a high counter plus a vessel, you may end up with something far different than you we picturing. I make them aware of the reality of the situation and then allow them to make their own decision. So I see what Sophie is saying, as a customer, you could have benefited from doing a bit more research, but as a someone who entered this industry with no prior knowledge, there are certain things that you just don't know to ask, until you find them to be wrong. Obviously if you ever do another remodel, you will now know to verify the finish height, not the box height; but that does nothing to rectify your current situation. I completely agree with Carolina Kitchen & Bath, it is not about placing blame, it is about solving the issues the best way possible. Have a conversation with the GC and see what she says. If you are close, that is a great start, just tell her this wasn't what you were expecting and ask if there would be anything, at this point, that could be done to ease your concerns.

    Congratulations on finishing the remodel, it sounds like a big one, and I know how much that can take out of a person! And good luck with the bathroom! I would love an update as to what eventual solution is implemented!

    Best,

    Avoree

    sheppardlake thanked Avoree Ferreira-Dunlap
  • jellytoast
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Isn't the entire purpose of hiring professionals is to have them guide you towards making the correct decisions and prevent you from making costly mistakes? If it isn't, then what is the point of hiring them and paying them for their "expert" advice and guidance?

    sheppardlake thanked jellytoast
  • Chessie
    6 years ago

    JudyG Designs, I get your numbers, but it sounds like the KD (incorrectly) specified a 36" height, before adding the 3" lighted top. Really would love to hear what her thought process was on this.

    sheppardlake thanked Chessie
  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    My thoughts as well JudyG.

  • aprilneverends
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Just to share what happened when a tiny mistake in framing was made in our master bath. All the specs and drawings were there on the wall for the framer to check. Well, good framer, bad day. The mistake didn't become obvious until much later when drywall and I think even tile surround went in. Nobody noticed-not the GC not the foreman not us ourselves. The tub was already purchased. Then suddenly everybody realizes it doesn't fit

    I was upset but wanted to work within new constrictions somehow , DH was livid and wanted to completely rebuild. (talking only about the alcove where the tub was supposed to go, not the whole bath)

    The GC offered two solutions:

    a) he takes on himself returning the tub, finding and paying new one as similar as can be to ours, but narrower, at no expense to us

    (around 2k but he managed to return the original tub with no restocking fees due to great relationship with the store)

    b) he rebuilds everything as per my husband's request but splits the difference with us since it's another 4K of labor etc.

    (then it's 2k for each of us. obviously more complicated logistically for him)

    Since aesthetically things looked similar to what we had in mind(and even slightly better lol)and functionality wouldn't be hurt too much by having a narrower tub I made these big sad eyes of the Cat from "Shrek" movie, and we went with solution number one.

    Brought other challenges with it (obviously then vanity had to become narrower etcetera..lots of work of how to figure the rest out) but miraculously ended up looking good since we already knew what we're dealing with, having caught it in the middle-and more economical in terms of water saving. (hello,California)

    I don't know how to remedy your situation, but I think your conversation with your designer and GC might offer some solutions..if not applicable in terms of change, then maybe splitting some costs?

    PS we didn't have a designer. We were a designer. Lol. Very tiresome task and you communicate with yourself a lot..)))))

    sheppardlake thanked aprilneverends
  • acm
    6 years ago

    Before you have the vanity adjusted, please be sure that you can open the rightmost cabinet door. That tub looks very close...

    sheppardlake thanked acm
  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thank you, Aprilneverends!

  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Yes, acm, that was another mishap. I let that one slide. It’s actually in a bit of a nook so it will be fine. The picture is a bit deceptive.

  • aprilneverends
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    btw we do have the problem with fully opening the vanity door closest to the alcove(mostly because it has this very comfortable for me step..we tailored everything to the needs of very clumsy me that needs this and that)

    the vanity was custom so could be build any way. the GC thought installing the door only to partially open was really stupid so he suggested making that door specifically so it can open fully, but that would mean another line on the vanity-where the movable part of the door attached to the rest of it.

    I fully took on myself responsibility to remain really stupid, in that regard. It opens, one just need to remember not to bang it too hard, It's also one door of two on this side soo it's not like you can not reach things. I should add it's also my husband side:) Still me reaching for things there and all.

    Many other things happened as a result of this lost inch in framing. One inch. Lol

    But at least we could tweak and reconsider and compromise..and also, by happy chance we found a very nice marble remnant for the countertop..was the countertop wider it wouldn't fit. And now I have a very pretty stone I love that cost us 250 bucks in a slab yard, instead of some awful Quartzes I was expected to pick within 20 min or something.

    (I'm not saying all Quartzes are awful..I have Quartz in the kitchen and it's fine. But I spent months on finding it. Not 20 minutes looking at tiny samples)

    So, you never know. Some mistakes are very bad,some can be reversed .some can be tweaked, some you decide to live with regardless, some turn to be blessing in disguise.

    Good luck!

  • thatsmuchbetter
    6 years ago

    and the plumbing ? GFI? what a debacle. You mentioned its your first go is the "designer" from the local bar? or you claiming you hired top notch accredited professionals for all trades.

    You are in preschool of hard knocks. next go around you will have streamlined your process no doubt.

    Youll be witholding money then or let me guess youve paid in full

  • PRO
    The Cook's Kitchen
    6 years ago

    If the design documents show something other than what was built, then it's up to the GC to fix it 100%.

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  • thatsmuchbetter
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    yeah but then he or she would be lowering it to the shoppers unhappy original height delight. Thats a lose lose. Professional project managers designers and the installer all need CHANGE orders in writing. You get that kind of service from professional crews. To much lost in verbal wishy washy last minute ideas. Im betting there is none.

  • PRO
    JAN MOYER
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    You won't like what I'm going to say. It's a mitzvah as some of my clients would say! A chance to be happier from a big goof!

    Ditch the lighted top! The vanity is fine! Nothing super special on its own and the attempt to make it more than it should be or could be was not a great idea! The concept belonged on a wall mounted vanity !! Think modern!!

    Everyone goofed. Get a new top and bye bye lighted top. Hello new sink too! Undermounted

    I won't ask why the soffit is still there....

    sheppardlake thanked JAN MOYER
  • aprilneverends
    6 years ago

    (it's a mazal...)) Mitzvah implies good deed..)) But who knows who knows. maybe there'll be one..))


  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I'm good with letting go of the lighted top, And I would much prefer an undercount sink. (At the same time, thanks to this faux pas, I have already bought two sets of sinks!) The soffit is there because it contains the ductwork for the HVAC. My house is a bit strange - Frank Lloyd Wright built in 1968. This was the best they could do...

  • sheppardlake
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    thatsmuchbetter, it would not be to my dismay if they lower the cabinet - that's actually what I want. Yes, I have paid in full and will be pulling from my communication toolkit to work this out. My GC came highly recommended and, as I have mentioned before, she did an amazing job on everything except this. I am pretty sure I see where the mistake was made.

  • thatsmuchbetter
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    My point? the original plan wasnt what you wanted so you guys winged it. Moving it back to the original spec w/o A change order and you still dont get the height you speak to. Lower? yes.

    In jans scenario of undermount you need to be fwd thinking, things like venting ,traps and spill levels. Now your opening the wall for the master plumber Carpenters/cabinet installers shouldnt be messing with plumbing


    sheppardlake thanked thatsmuchbetter
  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    6 years ago

    On our escape from hurricane Irma, my wife and I stayed in a motel with too low of vanities in the public bathrooms. I don't care if the owner, the architect, the general contractor, and the building inspector approved, had I been the installation contractor, I wouldn't have installed them out of ADA compliance. Keep your money, sue me if you want, but that's one civil rights lawsuit that will never have my name on it.

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  • PRO
    Carolina Kitchen & Bath
    6 years ago

    Joseph Cortlett, I've dealt with clients who've had a low-flow toilet installed to meet the permitting guidelines but after inspection was done, they removed it and replaced it with a regular toilet. This was in the era of low-flows requiring 2-3 flushes to get it all down the drain. People are stubborn and they'll do what they want, especially if they have the money to pay for it.