Thanks for your help, suggestions and encouragement. I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond promptly. We put out a new product this week - this involves a great deal of extra time and work for everyone. Getting back to the subject - Spruce: I'm sure you think I'm a nut case or an idiot but some of these concepts are difficult to grasp and internalize until you observe them firsthand. I've read about forest succession and how it unfolds over hundreds of years but I've never observed it nor have I tried to create a forest. I'm trying to find ways to bypass some stages - as you say "trying to grow a forest that is like a mid or late stage in the forest succession, without going through all the stages that lead up to it." At times, I've been confused by conflicting advice - for example, whether to use loblollies as a nurse tree. In any group, people will disagree. It's my responsibility to find more information to resolve the question or clarify the issue. I asked our forester this question. He advised me to use loblollies as nurse trees until oak seedlings are 3-4 feet tall - once they reach that height, the pines may cast too much shade. If this happens, they need to be removed. In another thread, you also recommended using black locusts as nurse trees, chopping them back as needed, so I did order black locusts. Given the type of shade they cast, it may not be necessary to remove them - I'll wait and see. Alabama & Sherry: Thanks for the posts about hardwoods growing under and around pines. I was beginning to think I'd lost my mind. I've decided that trees grow differently around the country and under different conditions - and that there are no one-size-fits-all answers to questions. Sherry: Why do I think you just got your 2008 FF catalog? So did I but I'm afraid to open it - too much going on right now. The seedlings I ordered from the NC nursery arrived 3 days ago - 2 weeks early - and they sent an additional 200 Atlantic white cedars that I didn't order. I've called but haven't heard back from them so I'm trying to keep the cedars cool. You said you ordered two nyssa biflora/swamp blackgum from FF. How would you describe these trees? I ordered 20 nysssa biflora seedlings, in addition to 50 Nyssa sylvatica seedlings. I have a wet area and thought N. biflora would be happy there, along with bald cypresses, Atlantic white cedars, maybe some red maples. I'm not familiar with the the Jefferson Elm. I'm working on an order from Mail Order Natives (I am a nut case!). In addition to Carpinus caroliniana, I'm looking at A. saccharum var. floridana, Acer saccharum var. leucoderme (Chalk maple), and Pistachia chinensis (Chinese pistache). She has Magnolia asheii - that's been on my list for years, and Magnolia macrophylla (Big Leaf Magnolia) but I think they both need more shade and protection than I can offer right now. I really need some big fast growing Magnolia grands to screen my neighbor's sheds across the pond. QM: I haven't received the seedlings from Indian Mound yet. They should arrive around Feb 15. But NC sent seedlings two weeks early so you never know. I'll let you know when they arrive. Take care, Pam

Thanks you for all your ideas and suggestions. You all are great! When it comes to planting near the house, I felt like I'm stuck in first gear. Maybe I'm moving into 2nd now. The front and west side of the house bother me more, probably because I see these areas many times a day and they are so BARE. I'm on the road now, traveling from Portland ME, and won't be home until Sunday. When I do get home, I'll take some photos so I can make it clearer what I mean. esh - You and dibbit hit the nail on the head re: using native plants. Yes, Myrica cerifera (Southern wax myrtle) is prolific here. It grows everywhere - even on sand dunes. . It tolerates long periods of wind and high tides (including salt water), and bounces back after tropical storms. Some are huge! I've also seen them pruned into multi-trunked trees - lovely. I'll see if I can find some small ones in the woods that may tolerate transplanting. Your post made me think about what DOES thrive here, not what I can MAKE grow here. In addition to Myrica cerifera, dominant evergreens include native Ilex opaca and magnolia grands. (Maritime forest) Spruce, that's great news about planting so many trees on your new land. It sounds like you are pleased, but maybe a little impatient for them to grow. My knowledge of Ilex opaca is limited to the prickly ones in the woods and next to roads. Since Isabel knocked down so many loblollies, our forests have been transformed - you really notice this in the winter. The dominant color is dark green with so many hollies and magnolias growing fast. Tomorrow, we drive from NJ to to Northern Va so I can make a side trip to McLean Nursery. If there is anything I should keep in mind (besides renting a closed trailer), please let me know. I remember messages between you and beng (I think) about what a great place this is. I've been waiting for a chance to visit. Ken: You asked "what is the descriptive term for that kind of house?" Good question. I don't know the answer but will see what I can find out. As background, my husband wanted to re-create the house he grew up in. That house was in Washington DC and was designed and built by his father in the 1950's. The house had a flat roof where people gathered to watch stars and fireworks, lots of glass "to bring the outside inside," and wonderful views of the city. Pete's father studied architecture under Walter Gropius who is viewed as a founder of Bauhaus, a school of modern architecture. When I first saw that house, I'd never seen anything like it! I think of our house as a beach house although it isn't in the style of most beach houses in the mid- Atlantic or southeast, in VA and NC. Maybe it's more like a California beach house? A modern or contemporary beach house? I think it's a reasonable facsimile of the house Pete grew up in, with lots of glass to bring the outside inside, a flat roof for star watching, and wide decks so we can entertain the neighborhood. Ken, you had a question about our "occasional short periods of salt water flooding during tropical storms." When a tropical storm goes through and if the eye goes is west of us, the Bay backs up and we get flooding. If the ey passes to the east of us, the water in the Bay drains out into the ocean. During Isabel (2003) and Ernesto (2006), the land under the house was under 3-4 feet of salt water with very strong wind and breaking waves. As the eye moves away, the water drains very quickly. The salt water damage is mitigated to a degree by several inches of fresh rainwater. After one of these storms, you swear everything is dead but the native plants spring right back in the Spring as though nothing happened. Yes, our local extension agent (ag agent) and especially the forester have become friends. They are unfailingly helpful but don't have much advice about landscaping. dibbit: The way you describe your entrance sounds similar to ours - a long driveway that curves (through the new forest one day) before you arrive at the house. Our entrance is unimaginative and uninspiring. Most things I planted died - including Nandina 'Firepower'! I like your idea of using cedar trellis to beef up the pilings and screen objects like the propane tank. I thought about using one of the smaller magnolias in that bed, adjacent to the weeping yaupon holly and tank - maybe 'Little Gem.' I usually have a small nursery under the house - it's fairly well protected but the trellis would be useful there. We also have 5- 550 gallon storage tanks for rainwater under the deck. I like your idea of keeping the design but ditching the plants. Your list is good. I've been making some changes since last year but am still stumped in some areas. What trees would you plant in front of a house like this? I thought about the Nuttall oak - it doesn't mind wet feet and is sturdy. Or maybe one of the new red maples like 'October Glory'? A small magnolia? Alabama - I am not familiar with Titi. I just started reading about it - it sounds promising. How do you use it? Do you know a source? Many thanks, Pam

This is really a great thread! I just wanted to chime in a bit. I just finished planting 140 trees on about 1 acre, and it went pretty well. I planted: 25 Common Lilac 15 Manchurian Crab 25 White Pine 32 White Spruce 10 Bur Oak 5 Paper Birch 5 Silver Maple 5 Black Cherry 5 Red Oak 5 Rugosa Rose 2 Red Maple 5 Red Pine 4 Hybrid Poplar In addition, this summer, I planted 4 larger trees... a bur oak, an Autumn Blaze Maple, a Siouxland Cottonwood, and a Red Splendor Crab It will be interesting to see how fast everything grows. The clone of Hybrid Poplar I planted can grow anywhere from 5-10 feet per year.. while the bur oak will grow at a glacial 6-18" per year over its entire life. In 1996, about 60 red pines, 10 white pines, and 10 black hills and blue spruce were planted on our land. In 2007, the tallest Red Pine is about 15 feet tall, the tallest White pine is about 12 feet tall, and the tallest spruce is 7 feet tall. Of course, these were all started from seedlings with no weed control for the first 3 years, and only mowing after that (when we moved in). We no longer mow the eastern portion of the property, where red pines are growing. There are a few clearings among the trees, and some shrubs are starting to become established. Among them are Rugosa Rose, low bush blueberry, chokecherry, and American Hazelnut. To date, not one hardwood tree has seeded. Under our deck, however, about 6 Boxelder seeds germinated, and one vigorous and desperate sapling is about 4 feet tall in its second year. I will transplant it to the edge of our property when the leaves drop... Otherwise, the land we own on a lake is already forested... and it's more of a question of management than anything. I desperately want to clear some of the underbrush (it's nearly impossible to walk through the woods here... so thick with underbrush). Between the Beaked Hazel, tree saplings, fallen logs, grass clumps, and various other shrubs, if yo'ure not tripping and trying to regain balance, you have several small branches trying to enter your head through your eye sockets. You basically have to close your eyes and bore your way through the woods with your hands in front of you, shielding your face.

Congratulations! You did it. It takes time to figure out their system but once learned, you'll never forget. Alabama, I've been looking at photos and reading articles about the longleaf pine ecosystem. I'm sorry but one question always leads to another. These articles stress the importance of fire to reduce competition and maintain the ecosystem. Our forester said the forestry dept burned an area where they are growing longleaf seedlings last spring - they lost more than 20%. He wasn't sure why -- maybe the temperature was too hot or it was too late in the season and the seedlings were in active growth. Question #1: If I keep vegetation down until the seedlings are out of the grass stage, do I need to burn longleaf pine areas? I have no experience doing this. I've seen photos of the longleaf wiregrass ecosystem - the only vegetation beneath the trees is the grass so it creates a savannah. I've read that if hardwoods or other pines get started, they will eventually crowd out the longleaf pines. If that's the that case, it seems that fire will be necessary. Maybe by the time I need to do this and need advice, the foresters will have more experience. ;-) Question #2: Are you familiar with the Joseph Jones Ecological Research Center in Ichauway in SW GA? It looks like a big research center and an nteresting place to visit. They have a longleaf pine management and restoration project and several others. While they have "landowner field days" for private landowners and managers in the area, I didn't see any indication that they allow people in to look around. Happy New Year! Pam