I was thinking about you yesterday, Alabama, when I saw the radar. Hattiesburg got about 4"-5" and it looked like the same brunt of the rain moved southeastward into your area - my little 2" was out of the main area, but I'm still happy to have gotten my 2"!
I can't find any nursery, mail order or otherwise that sells it. The Chinese version is available from several nurseries - I don't know why they carry that one and not our own native symplocos!
Sherry

I made some pictures of various sweetleaf bushes/trees on my property. I couldn't get a picture of the leaves on the one in full sun up front, because the leaves are off that one. Here's a picture of a little bush in the shade - this is what I see growing under the bigger trees on many parts of this property -
{{gwi:499416}}
And here are some leaves of one that's growing in part sun/shade - the leaves are a little narrower, and the stem and central rib are darker yellow -
{{gwi:499417}}
Here is a close-up of the flower buds already forming on the part sun/shade tree - sweetleaf is one of the first plants to bloom in spring, in late February, as I recall -
{{gwi:499418}}
This is about as big as symplocos tinctoria ever gets on my property -
{{gwi:329465}}
And here's a picture looking up at the top of the tree in the previous picture -
{{gwi:329467}}
Sherry

I haven't seen that one around. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

Sherry & Alabama - I have one more question. It seems like when you get seedlings from nurseries, you plant them pots for a while, then plant them out later. I ordered several oak seedlings this year and planted them out. Most were about 18 inches, give or take. Although I watered and mulched, some didn't survive.

Is it better to plant small seedlings in pots? If so, how long do you wait before planting them out? Do you have a protected area for the pots? We don't have many trees yet so I keep pots in a semi-shaded area under the house. From spring through fall, we have near constant wind out of the S, SE, SW. This makes life more comfortable for people but it's very hard on young plants and transplants. This means I can only have pots on the north side of the house where there is less wind.

I've never lived in a place where I had enough land to plant trees until now, so I'm not familiar with the best way to handle seedlings. I'm thinking that planting them out right away is not the best way to go. Can you tell me a little more about how you handle seedlings?

Many thanks,
Pam

I usually plant my trees that I order from nurseries in the ground when I get them. The only time I grow them in pots is when I start them from seed. I try to avoid nurseries that dig their trees from the ground because they usually end up cutting the taproot and the recovery is slow. I only buy from places where they grow their trees in containers (tree bands), that way all of the roots are there and the tap root has been air pruned.

I plant my little seedling trees in containers, Pam, because, in the country, when I plant out small plants, armadilloes and even squirrels will dig them up. I usually plant them out when they get to about 3-gallon size, sometimes before that. If critters aren't a problem where you are, you could plant them right away.

I've been gardening for a long time, and I've planted things a lot of different ways, but the way that works best for me is to add some chicken manure to the potting soil when I pot the seedlings up, then add more chicken manure to the native soil when I plant it out. I dig a hole a little deeper than the plant is deep but a good bit wider, and mix a little more chicken manure in with the native soil in my wheelbarrow before returning it to the planting hole. I also knock off any loose potting soil from around the plant's roots (if there is any) and add that to the mix - I like the roots of the plant to be sticking straight out right on the edges so that they can immediately grow into the soil in the planting hole. I get tremendous growth on my young trees and shrubs with chicken manure, much more than I ever got using chemical fertilizers. I don't know why it works better - maybe the N-P-K is more available to the plants, or maybe it has trace elements in it that my soil needs, or maybe it's just the earthworms that I always find in abundance in any soil that's been amended with it. Earthworms travel, so they aerate and fertilize the soil all around a plant with their castings and dead bodies. Where I live the soil is naturally acid, so it might be that the calcium in the manure helps the plants - if I lived out west and had alkaline soil, that might not be the case. I also study the native habitat of any tree or shrub and plant accordingly. The best way to do this is with your own eyes - when we go somewhere, I check out the amount of sunlight a native plant usually gets, plus how low and wet or high and dry the tree or shrub naturally grows. You can't rely, or at least I can't rely on the sunlight recommendations they give in books. Most of them must be written by northern gardeners, because if you plant mountain laurel or sourwood or dogwood or MANY other plants out in full sun like they suggest, they'll start to fry in June down here no matter how much you water them. I've found it just doesn't work for me to try and grow plants that naturally grow in sandy soil - my soil is loam on top of orange clay, and in some areas, the loam is practically nonexistent. Since mixing anything with clay is so difficult, I've planted a lot of acorns directly in the areas with little topsoil - oaks grow in that type of soil naturally here, so it'll probably work, it has in the past. Since you're on the beach, sand loving plants should work great for you, which reminds me - have you planted any river birch/betula nigra on your property? It grows in pure sand along the sides of creeks down here.
I also create a basin around my newly planted trees and bushes by making a ring of raised dirt left over from the planting hole (the least desirable looking soil for the plant to grow in) so that, even though it's planted at ground level, it's sort of in the bottom of a shallow bowl. That way, water will be directed to the plant while it's small. In time, the "bowl" dirt will level out, but by that time the plant will have grown enough not to need it.

Have you planted any sea oats, Pam? If I lived right on the beach that's what I'd plant! If there weren't any natural dunes near my house, I'd probably pile up some sand and create my own, then plant some seat oats on them - I'd also plant a lof of sea oats/uniola paniculata on level sand. They planted a lot of them on the barrier islands here after Hurricane Camille to stabilize them - they are beautiful plants, and wonderful for your environment. You can order sea oats from Mail Order Natives for $6.00 each, a reasonable price.
Sherry

Look into the Needle Palm too. I will make a good privacy screen over time and provide shelter for critters.

Sherry and Alabama: You all have been so generous with your time and advice. Thank you. After reading your posts, I think I'm on the right track re: planting seedlings out (we have deer, a few squirrels, foxes, raccoons, possums, but no armadillos yet). Since one question always leads another, I have a question about chicken manure and another about Needle palms.

Alabama: It's funny that you recommended the Needle Palm today. I just saw Needle Palms offered on Ebay (from Mail Order Natives). I have an area where I'd like to plant them but don't know if conditions are right. Between the driveway and the house is a bed with rhods, lorapetalum chinese, a Heritage river birch, Viburnum tinus (planted to replace struggling azaleas), a native fringetree (planted this fall), a weeping Yaupon holly (Ilex vomitoria), and some ornamental grasses. The rhods were recommended by a landscaper. What a mistake! They have struggled to survive the hot afternoon sun in the summer and the wind. I need to move them and thought about replacing them with Needle Palms. The river birch is still fairly small but it's settling in should provide some protection and shade before long. Do you think Needle Palms would tolerate these conditions? If so, I'll order them. I can think of several other places for them too.

Sherry, I read an article that said "Poultry manure (chicken in particular) is the richest animal manure in N-P-K." I believe it! When I was a child, we had chickens. When we stopped raising chickens, we planted a garden on the land where they were penned. That land had great soil - daddy's tomatoes were award winners. So I'm a believer in chicken manure.

We live in the country but I don't know anyone who raises chickens. Do you? If not, where do you get your chicken manure?

I haven't started sea oats yet. I agree, they are very beautiful! I thought about putting up snow fence along the sand and planting sea oats. This sand is covered with American beach grass, wax myrtle, salt bush, and little loblollies that seem happy to grow in salty sand (I need to get rid of them). I am reluctant to make any changes to the present system because it's working so well. We gained nearly 2 feet of sand during Hurricane Isabel and another 2 feet of sand in last year's tropical storms. Sand is building up behind the riprap installed by the previous owner so we now have some small dunes. A new sandy area is growing up nearby and is connecting with our land. This might be a good place to start sea oats.

One thing - beaches on the Chesapeake Bay are not like the beautiful wide sand beaches of the Gulf Coast. We have little sand beaches here and there, separated by forests, coves and rivers. The sand is soft. American beach grass (Ammophila breviligulata) grows everywhere. Sea oats will thrive, but needs to be planted before it will get established. Below Cape Hatteras, sea oats are dominant. Above the mouth of the Bay, beach grass is dominant. We are on the border so they intermingle here.

Thank you again. I'll sleep easier after your advice about seedlings. I'm starting acorns in pots now and am looking forward to seeing how this goes. Sherry, I took your advice and used clothes pins to put screen over the pots.

Take care and have a wonderful Christmas!
Pam

Pam, Needle palms are some pretty tough plants. They may take a year or two to get established, but they should survive fine afterwards. They survive in some pretty hostile environments in the southeast including droughts, fires, and hurricanes. I don't have any myself but I do know others who do and they look wonderful. I know a lady who has one growing in a small cutout in some concrete near her pool and it has been there for many years. I do have a couple of palmettos (Sabal minor), but I'm hesitant to recommend those for Virginia because they may not be cold hardy enough.

Thanks, Alabama. I'll order 2 or 3 from Mail Order Natives. I've heard good things about them, especially from Sherry.

I'm very tempted to try palmettos. Maybe in a more protected place. They are supposed to be hardy in Zone 8 so it won't hurt to try. I'll wait until we get through January. That's usually the cruelest month and probably not the best time to plant something that started life in Florida! I have 100 bald cypress seedlings coming in soon, that's enough for January.

I hope the sun shines bright in Alabama on Christmas Day.

Pam

You've got 100 bald cypress seedlings coming, Pam? Whew! How much property do you have?
There are chicken houses all around here, including one across the road, but it's beyond messy to get the manure. And you have to let it age for a while, since "hot" manure reportedly will burn plants. I get mine from the Lowe's in Gulfport or the Lowe's in D'Iberville/n. Biloxi - for whatever reason, all the Lowe's don't carry it, including the one in Hattiesburg and the ones in Tampa, Florida, where my daughter lives. This is strange, since the manure, Black Hen, comes from Oxford, Florida, not far from Tampa. It comes in neat, 25 lb. bags, already aged and ready to go!
Sherry

Hi Sherry: Thanks for explaining that I can buy processed chicken manure. I wasn't looking forward to the collection process. I've never seen it at the Lowe's near us but can probably order it by mail. I'll search.

Yes, to the bald cypress seedlings. We have 5 1/2 acres, mostly bare of anything, so I'm starting from scratch. We bought the land 2 months before Isabel hit. The land was clearcut several years earlier but there were some nice hardwoods and lots of loblollies near the water. Isabel was category 2 when she hit. You know what she did to those trees. Some loblollies snapped, others fell and took their neighbors down with them. What a mess! We've been cleaning up since.

This land is a blank slate and it's been driving me crazy. I miss having trees. With help from people in this forum, including Alabama, I have a rough plan. The bald cypresses are the first step - about half will be planted fairly close together in a grove, others will be spaced further apart and intermingle with other trees, probably hardwoods. About ten will go in a bald cypress grove I started last year.

Now I'm trying to figure out which hardwoods grow at the about same rate. This is the hardest part - I don't have enough knowledge or experience to know what can be planted adjacent to what. I don't know how to handle the oaks. It seems that they should be specimen trees but I also want some in the reforested area.

The local forester recommended live oaks and other maritime trees near the house and water - that is what led me to start this discussion.

See what happens when you ask or answer a question? Thanks for your help!

Pam

I have 5 1/2 acres, too, Pam. Mine was covered in dense, tall forest before Katrina, but we lost hundreds of big trees in the storm, mostly loblollies, and, unfortunately, also my biggest tulip poplar which was in the bottom of the hollow in wet soil - it was huge! Fortunately, we still have a lot of big trees left, mostly oaks, red maples, magnolias, black gums, sweetgums, wild black cherry, tulip poplars, long-leaf pines and a few big loblollies are still standing, making jillions of seeds! I pull up all the loblolly seedlings I find, and tag the various oaks, cherries, etc. that I want to keep.
It sounds like you can plant just about any native plant of the Virginia coastal area on your property, plus others of your choosing.
Good luck with your reforestation - the birds and other critters say "Thank you!" for your efforts!
Sherry

I've had great luck with the seedlings purchased from my state's forestry commission. They are grown in state and shipped to my county office. They've always been healthy, large and economical. Hopefully you got your seedlings from a similar place. With 5 1/2 acres, you've got a lot of room to grow!

It sounds like it will be very nice. My dad lives in Norfolk and lost a few trees in his small yard to Isabel. But, as a silver lining, they are now enjoying a bit more sun than they've had in the past.

Another tree that is native to the coastal Virginia counties is Chamaecyparis thyoides (White cypress). If you have any low swamp areas it would be another to consider. There is a very secluded location about 10 miles from my home that has some very old trees. The link below is a picture that was taken last year of me beside one. The bark on older trees has a spiraling effect.

I just LOVE white cypress! The state champion tree is supposed to be somewhere in my county - Forrest. I just hope the hurricane didn't get it.
I planted a real little one about 7 or 8 years ago, and it's only about ?12' tall. I planted another real little one (18" tall) in a container about 2 years ago, after I had discovered the advantages of chicken manure, then planted it out last fall - it's already about 6' tall! Of course, the place I planted it gets more sun than the original one, due to the hurricane.
I've seen big ones growing beside John's Bayou in Vancleave, Alabama. I read in the paper that the locals are upset, because in cleaning up the bayous in Jackson County after Katrina, the government people cut down very some old ones - disgusting!
Sherry

Oaks and hickories. You simply must have oaks and hickories. And a few sugar maples, too.

Sherry,
I share your interest in Sweetleaf. It grows abundantly in Sussex Co, DEL in thin, wet, woods, along with SB Magnolia, Bald Cypress and Am. Holly. It is so think along the roads that the road crew mows it back. Sweetleaf is host to the King's Hairstreak.
Sweetleaf and Redbay are two favorites of mine. Seldom seen in commercial production, they probably are not profitable to produce. If I had my way, they'd be in every garden, great butterfly/moth habitat plants.
Sam

Every time I see a hairstreak, Sam, I check it out, hoping it might be a king's hairstreak, but, unfortunately, they're nearly always red-banded hairstreaks - occasionally, I see a gray hairstreak. But I keep looking and hoping!
I agree about redbay and swamp bay but since persea gets those ugly galls, the average home-owner-in-a-subdivision probably wouldn't be interested. I guess you've heard about the disease (laurel wilt?) that's killing the perseas in coastal sections of SC and FL? I've planted mostly native trees and and shrubs on my property, but I'm adding a few non-natives for fun, like coast and dawn redwood, and I've planted out a lot of Asian members of the laurel family, also. I'm hoping that the palamedes and spicebush swallowtails will lay eggs on at least one of them - it's possible that Asian laurels might not be tasty to the Asian ambrosia beetles that vector the disease and thus would be resistant. If the beetle and the wilt spread inland, then palamedes and spicebush swallowtails could be wiped out eventually - that would be horrible! The swallowtails didn't use any of my Asian laurels while they were in containers. I recently got a fairly big neolitsea sericea from Forest Farm, so I went ahead and planted it out a few weeks ago - I'll see about that one next spring.
Sherry

Are you sure the plants shown under that tall sweetleaf are the same species?

You might want to check the register of national champion trees to see if your big one is bigger than one listed (if there even is one listed) on the American Forests web site.

I assume by your reference to the plants under the tall sweetleaf, bboy, you mean the ones in the first picture? If so, that picture was made in an entirely different place than the tall tree. I don't remember what's growing under the tall one.
I checked the register of champion trees, and the champion for symplocos tinctoria was registered in 1986 in Chesapeake, VA - it's circumference is or was 35", it's height was 70' and it's spread was 36'. The tall tree in the picture has a circumference at breast height of only about 21 3/4", and I don't think it's spread is anywhere near 36' - I'm not good at judging height, but it's probably ?50' maybe 60' tall, I don't know.
There's another tall one on my property close to the one in the picture. They both grow on a slope, near the bottom of the hollow, on a site that stays wet most of the year - they're high enough up on the slope that they undoubtedly have some high roots where they can get always get oxygen and roots low enough that they can nearly always get plenty of water, which I'd think would be especially good for growth. I think I'll work some chicken manure around the drip line of the two trees - maybe that'll speed up their growth. If they approach a yard in circumference in my lifetime, I'll register them.
Sherry

The tall sweetleaf is relatively straight for a mature sweetleaf - they usually grow crookedly, a lot like mountain laurels. I made this picture today of a crooked one that spreads it's little branches over a path into the woods -
{{gwi:499419}}
Sherry

Alabama: That's a great photo. The white cypress is huge - do you have any idea how old it is? I don't think I've seen anything quite like it, maybe because of the spiraling trunk. It reminds me of the trunk of a dawn redwood in the Sara Duke Gardens in Durham, NC. That trunk looks like it belongs in a different world.

Yes, we have some low swampy areas. I would never think to plant white cypresses there. Bald cypresses, yes. I planted acorns tonight. I used Sherry's tip about clothespins to attach screen on the pots.

QM: I agree about oaks and hickories. I'd like a few pecan trees too. I made a list of trees with these variables: shade tolerance, tolerance to occasional flooding, and growth rates. I made another list of oaks, ranked by color and growth rates.

I still haven't placed my seedling order yet.

My dilemma: I decided to take Spruce's advice and plant hardwoods and conifers in blocks, not rows. If I make the right choices and plant correctly, this will reduce competition between conifers and hardwoods. When reforesting, you are supposed to plant seedlings close, about 10 x 10, sometimes closer.

In making the lists, I was looking for hardwoods that have similar cultural requirements - i.e., shade tolerance, wet v dry, growth rate.

I have trouble when I think about planting beautiful trees like oaks and hickories that close together. I'm stuck and haven't placed the seedling order. This is crazy! Is it really advisable to plant trees like oaks and hickories this close when reforesting?

I will reserve an area closer to the house for specimen trees so they have room to do their thing.

Sherry: Your photo of the Sweetleaf is beautiful. That tree has character. Sam says it is abundant along roads in Delaware. If it grows here, I've never seen it but probably wouldn't recognize it. Several people are interested in the tree but we haven't found a source. That's strange because you can find almost anything on the Internet.

Many thanks!
Pam

I wouldn't mess with the soil beneath those wild trees, you might cause problems. Definitely don't dig among their roots, surface roots of trees and shrubs can be damaged by digging. Coincidentally I just saw last night a bit about how the Biosphere II project ran into problems with oxygen levels falling off inside the structure. Eventually they figured out they had made the soil "too rich" and caused a bacterial overgrowth which used up the oxygen. It seems bringing in a foreign material like chicken manure compost and adding it to the soil system under these trees could also produce unanticipated effects.

Pam:

The problem when trying to establish a "forest" of trees is the difference between the eventual spacing of larger trees and the spacing that is optimum for young forest tree development. If trees have too much room to grow when they are young, they develop too many large branches low down on the trunk. Then when the surrounding trees grow up those branches are shaded and die, and because they are so large, the dead branches will break off and open up avenues for fungal rots, etc. Of course that process can take 40 years or more.

I agree that planting a great many oaks and hickories close together can seem like a waste, especially since they are slow growing and will need protection and weeding, etc. for a relatively long time. One solution is to use other trees as "nurse trees." These are trees of other species that can be planted between the desired species and which will produce the side protection/shading that will encourage the desired trees to grow more upright and straight, without large side branches. If I understand your place correctly, you have loblolly pines coming up everywhere. These really grow much faster than the hickories and oaks, but you can prune them back at intervals to serve as nurse trees. OK, they will be ugly while you use them this way, but in a few years you will cut them all out anyway.

Another nurse tree candidate is black locust. Again, it is very fast growing and will need to be cut back periodically to keep them from overtopping your oaks and hickories. The locust is so fast growing that for the first two times or so, you could cut them right back to the base, and they will sprout up 6' or more the next year and resume their nurse function. They are also good because they are nitrogen fixing plants, and if they should get ahead of you and shade your oaks and hickories, the shade will not be so dense as to do much harm.

But of course all this nurse tree maintainance is a lot of work. It may just be better to plant your oaks and hickories 10 X 10!

--Spruce

Hi Spruce.

It's good to hear from you. How are things going on your new property? I believe you were thinking about a very long planting of NS?

I hadn't thought about using fast-growing trees as nurse trees. After reading your post, I read about black locusts in Guy Sternberg's book. He describes it as one of the most beautiful, fast growing, hardy, and durable trees, and as effective for erosion control and soil enrichment. It tolerates drought and salt. When I saw photos, I recognized it immediately. It grows wild along the roads and when it is in bloom, it's gorgeous. Since it doesn't cast deep shade, I think it will be a good addition to the hardwood blocks. Thank you for another creative solution!

I'd like to place my seedling order this week and have a question about pines. The plan is to create blocks of pines, bald cypress, and maybe NS. The local forester recommended longleaf pine and shortleaf pine. I planned to go with longleaf pines this year but he hasn't received his shipment of containerized longleaf pine seedlings yet. I need to make another choice. I am also interested in EWP. Do you have recommendations? If I can get shortleaf or EWP seedlings from the VA Seedling program, should I plant then 10 x 10? Closer?

The problem with loblollies is that they snap and fall in high winds. During Isabel, we lost many good hardwoods because loblollies crashed into them. The VA Seedling program offers several different loblolly seedlings - 1st gen, 2nd gen, 2nd gen top 10, 3rd gen. Are they the same re: weak wood?

As to nurse trees requiring a lot of work - maybe I should be concerned, but I'm more concerned with keeping little seedlings alive for the first 2-3 years. I think that will involve a great deal of work, especially if the drought continues. Cutting back block locusts from time to time doesn't sound like a huge chore. As you say, when the oaks and hickories grow taller, that won't be necessary.

Spruce, thanks for your help. If it weren't for the people in this forum, I'd still be looking at that bare field, wondering what to do with it.

Take care,
Pam

Pam, right now there is a seller on ebay that has Longleaf plugs for sale. Those are the best kind to plant because they won't be rootbound and the taproot has been air pruned. I think they were around $20 for ten of them.

You're correct to shun loblollies, Pam - most of the big ones break in half in hurricanes, and the northern posters have noted that they break up badly in ice, too.
I know you've probably gotten more advice than you can stand, but in the woods, trees do naturally grow closer together than the recommendations given in books. They tend to grow in blocks, followed by, say, an individual tree, then another block, but with a different number of trees within that block. Nature is full of variations, so if it were me, I'd plant the same way.
I've got some black locust trees, and they do indeed grow fast! They also host silver-spotted skippers, so you get the pleasure of having cute, long-tailed skippers bouncing around and those odd looking caterpillars wrapped up in their "sewn together" leaf nests. They don't occur in great enough numbers on any one tree to do any harm, though.
Have you thought about planting some carpinus caroliniana? I planted two, and they've grown like weeds, not slowly like the books say. I think I'm going to order another one along with a nyssa biflora. There's a tree that grows in my mother's front yard in Hattiesburg that I've been unable to identify ever since she moved there in 1972 when it was a very small tree. Its leaves and fruit look very much like nyssa sylvativa, but the leaves are narrower and shinier - they have a sort of avocado look to them - and the bark is more deeply furrowed. N. biflora is supposed to grow on heavy clay soils, which is what hers grows on - hers has grown very slowly, it's still not a real big tree. If the tree I order turns out to be the same as the one in my mother's yard, then I'll have ID'd it for sure, and even if it isn't, I'll still have just another different type of native blackgum. Nyssa sylvatica, n. biflora, and n. aquatica would all be good trees for you to plant. My n. aquatica grew faster than any other tree I've planted since the hurricane, from about 18" to about 6' or 7' in less than a year - I planted it in a low wet part of the hollow that gets plenty of sunshine, so it should be happy, especially with all the rain we've had lately.
Sherry

Pam:

Thanks for your kind words. My shoulder is much better and I am able to work OK, but unfortunately another problem has cropped up and I will have to back for more surgery. Trust me, my health is excellent, but I am just having a run of bad luck.

I am surprized to hear about the weak wood of loblolly pines. And I admit I am wondering if there is not some exaggeration on this. You can read in your Knowing Your Trees about the wood. Of course wood that is cut into lumber is not the same as wood in a living tree. Unfortunately, black locust trees, which produce some of the stiffest and strongest wood of any tree, is also subject to breakage in storms.

But I question, at least to some extent, the "weak wood" criticism of loblolly pines based on all the beautiful old ones I see every time I travel south. If they all break when they get tall, why do I see so many wonderful ones? Maybe they break in hurricanes more than some other trees simply because they are taller? Anyway, I don't live where you do, so I don't have much experience actually seeing the results of storms. But then if you have a strong hurricane, won't most tall trees break or be uprooted? How often are you hit by a really strong hurricane?

You can plant any pines 10 X 10 and get good results. 8 X 8 or closer are recommendations where a pulpwood thinning is advisable. I recommended 6 X 6 for the Norway spruce based on the high variability from tree to tree. White pines may do well in your area, but they won't grow as fast as the hard pines. The VA nursery selections may be about as good as you can get, but they are likely to be from the western VA mts. If you could get some from the piedmont area they may be best. Anyway, I would try some, but your best bet for the bulk of your pine plantings should be one or more of the southern hard pines. If you can't get the longleaf you want this year, wait a year--I think you will really like them.

Blsck locust trees--I love them, but many people consider them a weed to be destroyed. I have been planting black locust posts for a variety of reasons for many, many years--they last several times as long as the heaviest gauge steel fence posts. Yes, the bloom, the fragrance! the soil enrichment! Wonderful trees and you can get a tree to look like a mature tree in a remarkably short time.

--Spruce

Open grown Loblolly pines that have a thicker trunk are much stronger than the skinny ones that have been grown in dense stands. Even so, if you take a Loblolly pine and a Longleaf pine the exact same height and girth, the Longleaf is less likely to break in strong winds. Loblolly pine also lacks the huge taproot that longleaf pine has, which makes them more likely to be uprooted. As for commercial usage, Longleaf and Slash pines are used for lumber and Loblolly pine is used mostly as pulp for paper.

Not all the big loblollies on my property broke off - there are still a few left, but the percentage of loblollies that get topped off compared with long leaf is hugely in favor (or should I say lack of favor) of the loblollies. Maybe one reason so many more of them break off is that there are so many of them to begin with. They come up everywhere, not needing fire for the seeds to germinate.
Sherry

Alabama - Thanks for the heads up about the longleaf seedlings. I've spent so many hours searching for a grower in SE VA or NC, with no luck. I sent an email to the Ebay seller, asking if I purchase the seedlings now, can he delay shipping. We leave for SC and the FL Keys tomorrow, won't return until Jan 12 or 13. I need some time to prepare an area for them. If I buy the seedlings, he can probably delay. I'll keep you posted.

Sherry: I enjoy all the advice and suggestions. I think about what people suggest, do research, and ask questions (many). Finally, I make decisions. If I have more information, I make better decisions - it just takes more time but that's okay. Thanks to you, Alabama, Spruce, and QM, I've learned about trees and features of trees that I was not familiar until now. Yes, carpinus caroliniana is on the list. I've heard that it's a beautiful under story tree. I'm focusing on big stuff now - that open field with no trees is driving me crazy. That won't change until I get things growing out there. I think I need to become familiar with butterflies - another gap.

Spruce: I've seen beautiful loblollies too, big trees grown out in the open. I love the sound of wind in pines - it's unlike any other sound. When you see a stand of pines swaying together in strong winds, you feel it's a miracle they don't fall. My negative response to loblollies is a direct result of Isabel. It's irrational and I need to get over it.

Isabel took down millions of trees in southern and central VA. I can't describe what it's like when your home and community are devastated overnight. As you say, loblollies were so well represented because so many trees ARE loblollies. Other factors came into play. We had received so much rain that year that the ground was saturated. When the hurricane came, bringing more rain and high winds, it was the tipping point. If the same storm came this year, during a drought, the damage would be far less.

I want to thank all of you who have been so generous with your help, advice and suggestions. As I read and re-read these posts, I learn more from you. I wish you a happy and healthy New Year!

BTW: I'll be back with more questions - probably tomorrow or the next day. The drive from VA to the Keys is 1,100 miles, giving lots of time to think.

Pam

Pam- Two years ago I purchased 250 longleaf plugs for $50 (including shipping) from the NC Forest Service. I had to wait to make sure in-state residents got what they wanted before they would guarantee my order. Not sure if you have checked with them, but it may be worth asking.

I too have read that specifically with longleafs you need a small seedling/plug as larger transplants will likely have major root damage. Almost all of my longleafs survived. They still look like grass, though. I have to be carefull when mowing. Maybe this year they will put on some height. I have read they grow a 10' tap root before they start putting on any vertical height - I thought that was pretty interesting.

John

Hi John: I've been wondering how your reforestation project is going. Is this the end of your second year? Did your drought end?

Re: longleaf seedlings. Plan A was to get them from the VA Forestry Dept. At the last minute, they they decided not to sell them this year. Our forester tried to order 40,000 seedlings from NC, but that hasn't worked out.

I knew you got seedlings from NC so Plan B was to order from the NC Forestry Service. But they sold out of containerized longleaf pine seedlings VERY fast - I think by early November. For some reason, these seedlings have been very hard to find - I guess supply hasn't kept up with demand.

Thanks to Alabama, I was able to order 100 containerized seedlings from a seller on Ebay - they are grown in northeastern NC, which is near where I live.

I think temperature and length of growing season may influence how long your seedlings remain in the grass stage. Our weather is still pretty warm. I was planting trees yesterday in temps around 55. Today, I'm driving through NC - temps are 65. We haven't had any hard frosts. I think it will take 2 or 3 years before they grow out of the grass stage here.

Yes, I agree that reforestation projects are interesting, with so many subjects to learn. I'm not as far along as you but am enjoying it. I think you plan to use a high nitrogen product by Scott. I read several articles about fertilizing seedlings and the use of high nitrogen fertilizer. I found many high nitrogen fertilizers - from Osmocote Exact Standard at 15+4.0+7.5 to Osmocote Special N 38 to Forestcote 19+2.1+8.3+1.8Mg. I put that on the back burner for now.

I hope you'll keep us posted.

Best wishes for a happy, healthy new year!
Pam

Yes, they're indeed strange looking in the grass stage! I've never dug one up to verify the length of the tap root, but they must be real long - LLPs tolerate dry weather and hurricanes very well, don't know how well they do in an ice storm.
Sherry

Thanks to Alabama's tip, I'll have 100 longleaf seedlings in January.

It's so neat to know you can play a small role in bringing these beautiful trees back home, where they used to dominate. Awesome!

I don't recommend applying high nitrogen fertilizer to Longleaf pines. They naturally thrive in soil that is not very fertile and it is very easy to burn them with too much nitrogen. I have made that mistake.

I have made the same mistake as you mentioned, 'Bama, but on other species. The fertilizer Pam refers to and what I am planning on using is a very slow release Nitrogen (WIN). It feeds very, very slowly - over a 6-12 month period. Plus, a very small amount is used. Agree MicroGro and other typical lawn fertilizers may cause severe damage.

If sounds like from your experience, the longleaf may be more suseptible to damage than other trees. I may use 1/2 of the rate as I would used on my other seedlings.

Good luck with your planting, Pam. I'll check the forum periodically to see how things are going - keep us posted. Hope Mother Nature cooperates. I'm entering the 4th year on 10% of my trees, 3rd year for 60%, 2nd year for 30%. We've had a wet December, but need a lot more rain until the drought is considered over. We had zero rain in October. There is one thing I've come to understand - we are definately at Mother Nature's mercy on these types of projects.

John

Here is a photo of one of my lonfleafs. It was in the ground about 1.5 years when the photo was taken. It blends in with the grass - it is the lighter colored and taller clump in front of my son's right foot. It must be working on that that 10 foot taproot. All my longleafs made it through a very hard winter last winter and a severe drought, so I'm optimistic I can get them to grow. Pam- I will be curious how your growth rate will compare with mine. I'm guessing yours will be faster. Have fun planting.

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John

Here's one I planted last year as a plug.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/escambiaguy/tree%20pics/longl1.jpg

I think this one is three or four years old.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/escambiaguy/tree%20pics/longl2.jpg

I still haven't figured out how to post pics directly on here. :(

I'll go back and look at your pictures, Alabama.
John, your son is absolutely darling!! And so is the seedling LLP. :)
Here's a picture of some seedlings growing in the vacant lot across the road from me. This big lot was burned several years ago, and these came up on their own. I may order some seedlings and plant them out on my property - I guess nurseries, like Mail Order Natives, must put their LLP seeds in the oven before planting them! :)
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Sherry

Alabama, Photobucket says no such page can be found for both your pictures. Are you sure you copied it right?
There is a place to click on on your Photobucket page to generate urls for each picture, including one that can be used for imbedding in your post.
I'd give it to you, but I can't without the actual picture coming through - it won't even reproduce the beginning of the code I use on this post, just gives an icon, if you know what I mean.
Sherry

Here's the one planted last year that was a "plug".
{{gwi:499421}}

Congratulations! You did it. It takes time to figure out their system but once learned, you'll never forget.

Alabama, I've been looking at photos and reading articles about the longleaf pine ecosystem. I'm sorry but one question always leads to another. These articles stress the importance of fire to reduce competition and maintain the ecosystem.

Our forester said the forestry dept burned an area where they are growing longleaf seedlings last spring - they lost more than 20%. He wasn't sure why -- maybe the temperature was too hot or it was too late in the season and the seedlings were in active growth.

Question #1: If I keep vegetation down until the seedlings are out of the grass stage, do I need to burn longleaf pine areas? I have no experience doing this. I've seen photos of the longleaf wiregrass ecosystem - the only vegetation beneath the trees is the grass so it creates a savannah. I've read that if hardwoods or other pines get started, they will eventually crowd out the longleaf pines. If that's the that case, it seems that fire will be necessary. Maybe by the time I need to do this and need advice, the foresters will have more experience. ;-)

Question #2: Are you familiar with the Joseph Jones Ecological Research Center in Ichauway in SW GA? It looks like a big research center and an nteresting place to visit. They have a longleaf pine management and restoration project and several others. While they have "landowner field days" for private landowners and managers in the area, I didn't see any indication that they allow people in to look around.

Happy New Year!
Pam

Pam, I've got some big, tall long leaf pines on my property that must have been seedlings the last time fire was here. They grow close to big hardwoods, but don't get crowded out, at least I don't see any dead LLPs next to big hardwoods that look like they've lost the battle.
Whenever a prescribed burn is done on land with LLPs, a fair percentage of them die, so I don't think your forestry people are doing anything wrong. LLPs naturally grow in ecosystems other than just savannahs - the only savannahs I know of in this state are in Pearl River County, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are some in Hancock and Jackson Counties. All the other LLPs grow amongst oaks, hickories, cherries, blackgums, magnolias, persimmons, maples, etc. I can't remember seeing LLP growing in a low, wet area, though, they're always on well drained sites. If a fire naturally occurs in a mixed pine/hardwood location and kills most everything, the LLPs may be one of the pioneers, both other trees will pop up - especially maples, persimmons, and sweetgums - and it'll return to the original mix, at least that's what my eyes tell me. If it were me, I'd just plant the LLPs along with other types of trees and shrubs and forget about burning it later.
I've never heard of the Joseph Jones Ecological Research Center, but it sounds interesting!
Sherry

You don't have to burn as long as you control competing brush by occasional mowing (just don't mow the trees,lol). I'm not allowed to burn here where I live because this is a residential area. I also have some hardwoods mixed in with my pines, and if I burned it would damage the hardwoods. Longleaf pine will grow perfectly fine with hardwood trees as long as they can get a headstart, it's just hard for them to naturally reproduce under mature hardwoods. You can successfully have longleaf pines without having a "longleaf ecosystem". Prescribed burning is really only practical for controlling vegetation on large tracts of land (25+ acres) with a fire break around it. Once the pines get older and start dropping needles, that will help control weeds too and you won't have to mow as often. Using a little RoundUp to control weeds doesn't hurt either. As for the 20% loss, that may be normal. If every seedling survived in nature it would be awfully crowded.

Sherry & Alabama:

I appreciate the advice - it had a calming effect. You all have experience with this tree and have observed how it grows. I've never grown it, nor have many people in Virginia. I think this causes us to worry. I'm glad the LLP can coexist with the hardwoods you mentioned, after it's established.

In October, there was a two-day symposium about restoring LLP to VA. I was working and couldn't go but I read papers that were available online. The forestry people identified every native LLP over 50 years of age in the state and put the GPS coordinates into a database. I was stunned to learn how few native grown LLPs remain (less than 100) - these trees are nearly extinct in Virginia.

That is why I've been so intent on getting LLP seedlings and providing the conditions they need. If I'm successful, there will be another little LLP foothold in southeastern VA.

The only trees that I would not plant with LLP are very fast growing ones like Sycamore or Tulip Poplar, which you haven't mentioned. It may even seem like your oaks are outgrowing your LLP's while they are in the grass stage, but once they start height growth they will shoot upwards 3-4ft in one year and assume dominance over the oaks. You should be able to mix your bald cypress with them too.

I'm not sure if I agree with the advice of planting trees 10 X 10. Hurricanes are one of the problems you mentioned for your area and I think trees, that are grown with plenty of elbow room, tend to have lower centers of gravity, compared to trees grown in crowded conditions. Trees left, after a forest is thinned, are not as attractive (to me) as trees grown as specimens.

This certainly applies to live oaks which can easily reach out 60 feet in each direction. A live oak that was allowed to grow in the open, looks dramatically different than one cleared around much later in life.

I am however considering planting a remote five acre corner of my land in pure bald cypress, 20 x 20, as a timber investment for the next generation. They are a great hurricane tree. So many pine trees were destroyed by Katrina that I can't imagine counting on them as an investment this close (20 miles) to the beach.

Not an expert, just my observations.

Hi Terry: It's good to hear from you. Non-expert opinions based on observations are appreciated.

The "10 x 10 rule" seems to apply to planting trees in plantations that will be harvested over a period of time, not to a personal reforestation project. As Sherry says, Mother Nature often plants trees much closer together, especially in a forest, so I will consider her knowledge for sure.

I've learned that there is a big difference between how you plant trees for a reforestation project and how you plant trees as specimens. I plan to do both. All this will take years but I enjoy the work and and look forward to watching these projects evolve.

I know I'm very fortunate to have this land and the opportunity to transform it into a special place. I think you are in the same position. ~ Pam