A Shumard in Cleveland would get as big as Northern Red or Black Oak would. Shumard is actually native to SW Ontario (just across the lake from Cleveland).

According to this US Forest Service info, though a bottomland tree, Shumard is relatively intolerant of flooding during the growing season. I think Nutall is a safer choice.

Relative tolerance of trees and shrubs to flooding during the growing season

here is a pdf from 2013 .... for what that is worth ... ken

http://wadeandgattonnurseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Quercus-Oaks-Retail-2013.pdf

I totally second Ken's recommendation of Wade and Gatton. I make an annual pilgrimage (it's about 3 hours from me.) You will have no trouble at all spending the whole day in their lovely hillside garden. Pack a picnic and have your lunch in one of many lovely spots where you will find tables and chairs. You will be happily exhausted at the end of the day, and wonder where the time went. Bonus plants, discounts for garden club members and a very nice bunch of people!

I don't really like shumard oak. Nuttal oak is a nice tree, but make sure you have enough space to plant it. These aren't small ornamentals but big shade trees. I would go ahead and order it, if it is a large specimen plant while dormant.

I'd avoid the shumards from the big box stores - they're almost certainly southern provenance trees (likely from nursery growers in TN). I've tried southern source shumards more than once, and had very poor results (winter dieback, chlorotic foliage). You'd be much better off with a locally grown shumard from a more northern seed source (if you can find it). Maybe one of the growers in the Lake County area would have them?

Though I've never tried Nuttall oak, based on its native range I'm guessing this species wouldn't perform any better than southern shumards. The Quercus experts may chime in on this. I also think at times some nursery growers have confused these 2 species, unknowingly labeling Nuttalls as Shumards.

Ken/Indiana... how big are the Wade and Gatton trees that you purchased? Looks like their smallest is around 2", which I am guessing is in the neighborhood of 12' tall. Assume that you take a big truck down there for pick-up?

Call them first and ask about size availability. They are not exactly tech saavy, so website and printed matter is likely out of date. You will find them very willing to dig most anything, given some notice and if they're not too busy. Some smaller specimens already potted up in their garden center, but i never saw any trees I could have squeezed into my car.

Anecdotal mention. At our last home, I planted a Shumard. It tended to retain leaves in winter. At our current home, I planted a Nutall oak. It loses its leaves in winter. Our pin oaks (I believe they are; already there, not my idea) retain their leaves in winter, and the swamp white oak we planted does not. Some people like dead leaves on the tree in winter, some don't.

Richard.

Yes, I use the gas powered blower to get the leaves off of the trees. I HATE to see brown curled up leaves on trees.

You're not the only one who doesn't like them, whereas I like dead leaf retention as it gives the winter landscape some body, a look at though at least recently the trees were alive, as opposed to that empty, dead skeletal look.

Richard.

they used to have all sizes.. from homeowner potted .... to giant industrial offerings ....

as noted above.. this place is somewhat old school .... phone ahead.. make appointment.. etc ...

van and shirley wade are huge in the american hosta society ... they are good garden friends ... back in 2000 he sold me thirty 6 to 8 foot bare roots oaks in april .... got them all in the back of my pickup ... they are now going on 30 feet tall ....

i do not know if he still offers such for sale ...

ken

Many leaf-retaining oaks lose that characteristic as they get older.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I think I will pass on the Shumard and take my chances with a mail-order Nuttall. The Wade & Gatton nursery sounds cool, but they don't carry Nuttall as far as I can tell. I will check W&G out if I ever need to buy several oaks at once. If the Nuttall struggles with the winter, I'll replace with a non-oak that is a safe bet for the site.

I have both, I've had them for at least 7 years or more. I am glad to hear that the Shumards get wide. My Shumard gets pretty nice fall color. I have several Nuttall's oaks, they grow pretty fast, have nice form. I am glad I have them. I can take pics of any of them if anyone wants, but, the trees are like teenager looking sized trees, not mature. I love all my oaks, well, my Willow oaks and Q. Michauxxi are being tempermental. But, most are doing great.