No problem Pam! Keep in mind that Nuttall oaks are for poorly draining soil or saturated soil while Shumard oaks are for drier upslope with better draining soil. They probably don't look much different. Initially, I had planned on getting shumard oak seedlings but after finding out that the ground at my 3 acres property can stay saturated at times in case of heavy rain. Just very heavy packed clay that is impossible to work with when wet. Also, it's very flat piece of land so water don't really just run off (good and bad, i guess) So for that purpose, I chose montezuma cypress and nuttall oak trees. Maybe over time, when the ground is improved, I might add more variety. I noticed that the ground of forest close by is pretty dry. All the trees must have sucked the ground dry after one of the wettest years on record! Much better soil too after many years of leaf litter on the ground.

Pam:

We talked about this in relation to Norway spruce and white pine (maybe one or two others) under a previous topic.

There are at least three or four very important issues I have seen: hardiness, timing of bud break--spring frost sensitivity, growth rates and overall vigor, and timing of leaf fall.

As for hardiness, some species could have more of a problem than others. For Norway spruce, I doubt this would be an issue. There is some variability in timing of bud break, but even from the same source NS trees vary in this. The main issue with NS is the overall vigor and the density and weeping quality of the foliage.

But for some other trees, such as tuliptree, the hardiness issue is crucial. I bought one from a very southern source (or so I surmise) and I kept it for four years. But it never adapted--it got frozen back to the roots each year, and tried to keep its leaves well after all the local trees had lost theirs.

Many nurseries in the north use southern sources for their trees because there are fewer problems with snow delaying the digging in spring. I think this is really terrible, but I don't know what can be done about it. Of course these growers could use northern seed sources for the trees they plan to ship north, but this is a level of care the industry is unlikely to take.

You ask specifically about oaks: What I have observed is trees from a source further south keep their leaves very late into the fall or early winter. This can be a problem if there is an early snowfall or ice storm, causing excessive breakage. But I have not observed dieback--winter hardiness problems--with any oak I have observed up to now.

But after you plant your young oak trees, you may notice that they will keep their leaves rather late. Don't panic--it is normal for young oaks, and some other kinds of trees, to hold their leaves and keep them green later than older trees, and many kinds of young oak trees will hold their dead leaves well into or even through the winter. This is another characteristic that is much, much reduced or eliminated as the trees get older.

Ditto with red maples.

Generally I agree with those who say "no problem" with the Texas oaks, with the possible exception of their holding leaves later than would be ideal for your area. But then I don't really know what the timing of leaf fall of oaks is at your Texas source.

Anyway, you are very smart to think about this question--with all the work you are putting into your tree planting, it would be terrible to find out after two or three years, that your efforts were wasted.

--Spruce

Spruce -

You're probably right so I looked at other state's foresty service. I found nuttall oak from Missouri Forestry. Plenty of choices there too!

Here is a link that might be useful: Missouri Forestry

Hi Spruce:

You say that young oaks tend to keep green leaves late into the season. In late December, I observed several young oaks (4-5') with predominantly green leaves. On January 3-4, we had a cold snap with a low of 19 F and a chill factor -9 F. After reading your post, I was curious about these young trees and how they had changed. I took a few photos of the leaves on these trees this afternoon.

On Dec 30 07, the leaves were green with narrow streaks of yellow. On Jan 13 08, the leaves are mottled with red blotches. A little green remains.

Mottled Leaves

{{gwi:327156}}

Leaves at top of the tree still have more green - where did the yellow go?

{{gwi:327157}}

A few months ago, in a discussion about ordering seedlings from the Virginia Seedling Program, you advised that many of these seedlings are probably grown in the western part of the state. That stayed in my mind - and the idea that state lines are often irrelevant. I began to look for seedlings grown in a climate that is more similar to mine.

I did not have confidence in my knowledge about provenance, so I posted the questions yesterday.

After reading your post and Resin's, I decided to compare the climate at Indian Mound Nursery in Alto, TX with the climate in Deltaville, VA. The Indian Mound nursery is between Dallas and Shreveport. I used Shreveport as the reference point.

In Shreveport and Deltaville, the average monthly rainfall is 3.8." Monthly rainfall patterns are nearly identical. Average high and low temperatures are very similar too. The first frost in Shreveport is a little earlier, the last frost is about the same. Re: latitude, Shreveport is 350 miles south of Deltaville.

This has been an interesting and liberating educational exercise!

One more comment: Without the encouragement I've received from members of this forum, I don't think I would have continued to read, study, and observe, nor plan a reforestation project.

Thank you!
Pam

Pam:

This is definately a two way street, so to speak. I think all of us who have responded to your posts have had fun, and have had occasion to think a little more carefully about what we know or think we know. And I have learned a lot from you and the others who have submitted their ideas. A veritable plethora of plusses, all around.

--Spruce

Spruce.

I agree with you. I'll always have questions and I love dialogue that sparks more questions and ideas. These discussions reminded me a little of philosophy classes in college - question, answer, question, answer, digression, question, answer, confrontation -- "But what if ..."

Disagreements are like the seasoning in a good stew.

This morning, I went to the forestry office to discuss my almost -final seedling list with the forester who has been working with me. He is the regional forester who has also worked in our county until they hired a person to fill the job. I met the new forester. He is very young - VA Tech, class of 2006. He started work on Monday.

I brought a few bags of those big Pepperidge Farm cookies - the Chesapeake variety. I wanted to thank them for their help, and you can't beat good cookies.

Spruce, please keep us posted about what you are doing with your new land and your timberland. After reading the enthusiasm and joy in your posts, I was inspired to think about looking for more land ... then gave myself a shake and a reality check. I'm working to fill these empty acres with beautiful trees and I'm looking for more? Get over it girl!

Take care,
Pam

Let us know what you think of the seedlings. I may be placing an order in a few weeks.

Pam:

Thanks for the kind words.

As for buying more land. Well, maybe that would be a good idea, maybe no. My first piece of advice to anyone who is thinking of that is not to get overextended financially, unless one is very young. When I bought my tree farm--the big block of 213 acres--I was 34 years old and literally half my income went to payments for that land. But I soon got raises, and in the end it was the smartest financial decision I ever made. But at my age now getting overextended in a land purchase could be the dumbest.

But having said that, if one has a love of land--the woods, nature in general, etc--and can take an active interest in managing the land, there is nothing better, both for one's health, both physically and mentally, and ultimately for investment, that one can do.

But you have to find the right land. It is not a question of looking at a dozen or so properties and then buying the best one. You have to find just the right one, and that may not happen, and if it doesn't happen, you have to recognize that it has not happened, and then not buy anything.

I bought 10 acres in 1971, and after a couple of years, realized that I had time and energy to really invest in a substantial piece of timberland. I looked at many, many properties over the next three and 1/2 years and found nothing that was really right. Then I found one, but could not afford it. Two years later it was still on the market so I looked at it again. And I really looked--I walked over, almost literally, the whole 213 acres. I started at 9:00 a.m. and kept up until almost 3:00 p.m. The agent was really, really patient. I made an offer substantially below the asking price, had that accepted, but had to accept some changes in the payment terms I offered. Boy, oh boy was I excited. But I had no money for new clothes, restaurants, a new TV, or anything else for about four years.

Anyway, It won't hurt to keep your eyes open, look at properties from time to time, and see what may surface. You probably would not want another property that requires the same kind of work you are now doing, but then maybe you would. An investment in something that has value as productive timberland, as well as having special natural/aesthetic appeal is almost always a good choice.

--Spruce

Pam, I'm reading Narratives of Early Virginia 1606-1625, most of the reports or letters being written by Capt. John Smith, who wrote -
"The wood that is most common is Oke and Walnut: many of their Okes are so tall and straight, that they will beare two foote and a halfe square of good timber for 20 yards long. Of this wood there is 2 or 3 severall kinds. The Acornes of one kind, whose barke is more white than the other is somewhat sweetish....."
And, "there is a kinde of wood we call Cypres, because both the wood, the fruit, and the leafe did most resemble it; and of those trees there are some neere 3 fadome about at the roote, very straight, and 50, 60 or 80 foot without a braunch."
I think the cypres be mentions are probably long-leaf pines - I've seen pictures taken over 100 years ago in my area of LLPs as the woodmen were standing there with huge saws, two men to a tree, one holding each handle on the end, that were HUGE! They were about ?12' or more in diameter - I didn't know LLPs could get this big until I saw the pictures! A fathom is about 6', so 3 fadomes would be about 18' in diameter, which is plausible.
And I love this passage about persimmons -
"...which they [Indians] call putchamins, grow as high as a palmeta. The fruit is like a medler; it is first greene, then yellow, and red when it is ripe: if it be not ripe it will drawe a mans mouth awrie with much torment; but when it is ripe, it is as delicious as an Apricock."
And this about chinkapins -
They have a small fruit growing on little trees, husked like a Chestnut, but the fruit most like a very small acorne. This they call Chechinquamins, which they esteeme a great daintie."
He mentions "okes, walnuts, elme, ash, cypres[probably LLP], mulbery, chestnuts, plumbs, cherries, crabs [crabapples?], persimmons, and others whose Indian names don't compute with anything I'm familiar with. All of this took place on the Chesapeake Bay, except that he spelled it like the Indian pronunciation "Chissiapiacke" - are you anywhere near the old Jamestown settlements?
Sherry

"there is a kinde of wood we call Cypres, because both the wood, the fruit, and the leafe did most resemble it ..... I think the cypres he mentions are probably long-leaf pines "

More likely Taxodium distichum, with the comparision being to Cupressus sempervirens (the cones are quite similar; even Linnaeus included it in Cupressus, as Cupressus disticha).

"some neere 3 fadome about at the roote"

"about" means girth (circumference), not diameter!

Resin

The cypress trees that grow here have limbs very close to the ground, which is why I didn't think he meant taxodium distichum - I've NEVER seen t. distichum with the distance he describes [50'-80'] being without a branch, not even close. I'm not saying it's impossible, just unlikely. You're undoubtedly right about the 3 fadomes being circumference instead of diameter thing.
Sherry

Hi Sherry,

There's some Baldcypresses that size and even larger, still around now . . .

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful:

QM: I will post a message about the seedlings when they arrive. I plan on ordering today but don't know when they will ship from TX.

Spruce: Yes, becoming over-extended financially is a concern. Another concern is that I don't have nearly enough knowledge to make a wise decision.

I'll think about it and continue to study. I signed up for a basic forest management principles and techniques course from VA Tech. It should answer many of my (elementary) questions.

I hope the next surgery is easier than the last one.

Take care,
Pam

I've never seen such an old cypress that was that tall, skinny and needle free for such a distance on the lower part of the tree, Resin. The Senator grows like a tall pine. The ones here get BIG, FAT trunks with age - here's a picture of a woman standing in front of a big one in the Sky Lake Wildlife Management Area - there's one that's supposed to have a 40' diameter, yes, I said diameter, not circumference -
{{gwi:327158}}
Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: Skye Lake

Most of the Taxodium along the Tensaw river have few branches. When they grow in dense stands they are very tall and straight.

"there's one that's supposed to have a 40' diameter, yes, I said diameter, not circumference"

I fear that must be apocryphal - the Tule Tree in Santa Maria del Tule, Oaxaca (Taxodium mucronatum) is 11.62 m diameter (just over 30 feet), and is the stoutest tree in the world

Resin

It does sound impossible, but if you read my link, you can see that's what they're saying!
One day I hope to get somebody to lead me to it - it's way out in a swamp in the Delta - and I'll take my tape measure with me! :)
Sherry

I looked up the statistics of this tree on another web site - the Skye Lake site erred - duh!
The tree is 46'9" in circumference, about 15' in diameter, and only 70' high - still a big tree to me!
Sherry

missherry:

I am a little doubtful about longleaf pines growing to 12' in diameter. I know you say you have pictures, but can you be absolutely sure these are pictures of longleaf pines? The largest pines in the US that have been reported on by early lumberman are the western sugar pine and the eastern white pine, and I am not sure any of those was actually 12' in diameter. Longleaf pines are not famous for producing trees of outstanding diameters.

Anyway, I am sure you would not make such a mistake, but there is a museum I visited not too long ago, either in Oakland MD or perhaps Kingwood, WV that had some pictures of the forests from the "early days." It showed lumbermen cutting down huge trees. The exhibit said these were the trees that formerly grew in the Kingwood area. But these were very clearly pictures taken of the giant sequoia trees in CA. What is inexplicable to me is that it was a museum which exhibited and mislabelled these pictures.

There are some other kinds of pines that have bark on older trunks that can, at least to an untrained eye, look like longleaf pines.

Well, I haven't seen the pictures and don't know their provenance, so I ask some tolerance/forgiveness in this matter, but a 12' diameter longleaf pine is simply something that strikes me as virtually impossible.

--Spruce

"the Skye Lake site erred - duh!"

Thanks for checking! The relatively short height suggests that (like The Senator) it lost its top in a hurricane.

"I am a little doubtful about longleaf pines growing to 12' in diameter"

I'd agree; Pinus palustris isn't a particularly large tree, species with very dense wood almost never are. The largest currently existing is 93 cm diameter (Gymnosperm Database; = 3 ft 1 inch). I can't envisage one four times as thick.

Loblolly gets larger, with the stoutest living cited there as 152 cm diameter with historical records of 182 cm diameter.

Resin

Well, you're probably right, then, Spruceman! I did see some pictures several years ago of some lumbermen in southeast MS about 100 years ago standing in front of what was to my eye a very big tree, with a saw with handles on each end, and, as I recall, it was ID'd as a longleaf pine, but I may be in error.
I wasn't offering any definite statistics on LLP size - that's why I put a question mark in front of the size I listed - my point was just that they did used to grow much bigger than they do today, when most of them get cut down for paper or lumber long before they get a chance to reach their full size. I'm not claiming anything major here! I'll try to remember where I saw the pictures - maybe I can share them.
My memory isn't what it used to be, but the tree in the picture I saw really DID have an unusually large trunk - maybe that's why they made the picture at a time when photography was still in its infancy.
I think the people on this forum take trees and their statistics a lot more seriously than I do. I just like to plant them, see wild animals use them to their benefit, and maybe my love of them causes me to overestimate sizes. But whatever, I won't do it in the future!
Sherry

Sherry: The guys are just doing their thing about precise measurements. I hope you'll keep reading good books and telling us about them, and teaching people like me how to plant trees from seed, and which native trees and shrubs are most beneficial to which butterflies and other wildlife. You have so much knowledge, experience, a great attitude and an open mind - I love reading your posts and I've learned much from you.

Yes, my home is close to Jamestown. About an hour's drive by car, closer if you have a fast boat. Chief Powhatan and his famous daughter lived on a high bluff on the north side of the York River in what is called the Middle Peninsula. I live on the Middle Peninsula too. If you drive south over the York, then west on the Colonial Parkway, you'll get to Williamsburg and Jamestown.

A colonist described what he saw on "the six and twentieth day of April, about four o'clock in the morning, we descried the land of Virginia; the same day we ent'red into the Bay of Chesupiok directly without any let or hindrance ... (we found) fair meadows and goodly tall trees, with such fresh waters running through the woods as I was almost ravished at the first sight thereof."

I try to imagine what it was like for them - a Bay that was so wide, they could not see the other side, the maze of rivers, the untouched forests and huge trees. Seeing these things in April must have been overwhelming to these people who had spent months on small ships, on a trip that seemed as though it would never end.

Last year, Virginia celebrated the 400th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown and the first permanent British colony in North America. My village has a small but thriving maritime museum. After extensive research, museum members built a replica of Captain Smith's shallop, a 28' long vessel that can be sailed or rowed (usually rowed). Captain Smith was accompanied by a large crew on his explorations - they had no shelter on board.

When you imagine exploring the Bay as Smith and his crew did, in a small open row boat, you feel humbled. The Bay is about 190 miles long. With its tributaries, the shoreline is nearly 12,000 miles long at mean high water. (link below) Despite this, Captain Smith and his crew rowed through much of the Bay and created maps that are amazingly accurate today.

I guess you can tell I love this place. My great-great-great (etc) grandmother was Matoaka (AKA Pocahontas, AKA Rebecca Rolfe). When we moved back here, I knew I was truly home.

Thanks for telling us about the book. I'll find it.

Take care,
Pam

Here is a link that might be useful: FAQs: Geography of the Chesapeake Bay

The link below shows a very old picture of a virgin stand of Longleaf pine. I do occasionally see trees that look just as big today though.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:327154}}

Yes, Pam, I love history, especially early American history - I really enjoy seeing this country through their eyes. Thanks for the link to the geography of Chesapeake Bay - I'll look at it right away. That's so interesting about your being descended from John Rolfe and Pocahontas! My ancestors were nearly all in Virginia going back to at least the mid-1600's - my maiden name was Sims, and the Sims/Syms ancestor lived in Williamsburg very early on. His descendant - can't remember how far down the line it was - fought under George Washington at Braddock's defeat.
Alabama, the tree that was ID'd in the picture as a LLP could very well have been a loblolly pine, since they're about as common as LLPs now - maybe they were back then. I'll try to find the picture - I think it was in a historical book about this area.
I love trees too much, Pam, to quit posting, I'll just avoid measurements, even with a question mark by it, to try and stave off the Tree Forum Police - they don't own the forum, so us non-scientists can use it.
I may not have detailed scientific knowledge, but I have a lot of practical experience and want to keep learning.
Sherry

Pam and Alabama, there's a ridge on my property from an old "dummy line" or temporary railroad line that was used at the turn of the last century to transport logs - I've even found a few old railroad spikes in that area when digging up the earth to plant trees. I've always wanted to have some sort of collage of pictures on a wall in my house with pictures of the logs, people, and oxen from those days, since forestry is the biggest industry here, and my property is right in the middle of that VERY big logging operation so many years ago. I've been investigating it, and the McCain Library at USM has many old pictures that I can have copied for a nominal fee - they include the picture I mentioned in this thread with the lumberman holding the saw up against the big pine. The person I talked to on the phone said she knew just what picture I was talking about, that it was a "famous" [only to a few people in this area, I'm sure] photograph, because this was the tree that won some sort of competition at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, MO - they won a steam locomotive for it.
I'll be going to Hattiesburg Tuesday to look through the pictures. I'll take a picture of them and post them when I get them.
It's been snowing big time in central Mississippi, and my mother in Hattiesburg said it snowed for a while there, too - it's only been raining here, but it's very cold!
Sherry

Sherry: I look forward to seeing that picture. I like the idea of putting photos from the "old days" on a wall. I'm planning to do something similar, but the photos are of watermen, the men who caught crabs and tonged for oysters, then sailed out to buyboats to sell their catch. The work is hard but people still quit regular jobs to go back on the water.

It's snowing here too - and supposed to continue into the night. This is first good snow in years! It's like a dream.

Take care,
Pam

Alabama:

As you know, I've been intrigued by LLPs since you posted photos here. I've read about the trees and their history, talked with our forester about them, and ordered containerized seedlings so I could get them started here in my community. In a sense, this was an act of faith since I'd never seen a stand of mature LLPs.

Last week, we drove home to VA from the Florida Keys. Most of the trip was on I-95. I have traveled that road many times and wasn't looking forward it. A few miles north of Miami, I saw small trees that looked familiar - they were LLPs planted beside the highway. They were small, about the size of one you posted. By the time we reached the Melbourne area, LLPs were growing like weeds by the fields, thousands of them.

North of Daytona, towering LLPs met and formed green tunnels over the highway. They were so tall and grew so close, their needles a deep rich green - I was entranced. The show continued through north Florida, and into Georgia, South Carolina, and southern NC.

I talked to our forester this week, told him about it. He said he had a similar experience on a trip through South Carolina where he saw huge stands of mature LLPs. He said, "We need to do better in Virginia." He's right, we do.

Seeing those huge trees was an incredible experience - this helped me understand on a deeper level what we need to do and why. Thank you!

"It's been snowing big time in central Mississippi" .... "It's snowing here too - and supposed to continue into the night. This is first good snow in years!"

Just wondering how NOAA manage to get it so wrong??? Or perhaps it won't show until the map for 20 Jan.?

(NOAA public domain image)

I have no idea what kind of map that is Resin - maybe it's a map showing "permanent" snow on the ground or something, I seem to remember something like that, but I don't study snow pack, not being in the normal snow area. Regardless, you need to quit putting so much faith in the bureaucracies - nothing is slower.
Below is a link from the local TV station - Hattiesburg reportedly got 3" of snow!
Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: Hattiesburg/Mississippi Snow from 1/19/08

It's a map of snow cover on the ground, issued daily throughout the year (including summer, when snow is confined to a few spots such as glaciers); at the link below click on 'data archive' to see the list of daily maps.

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/SNOW/

Yes, that map is of the current snow and ice cover, ie. what's already on the ground. I'd guess that the snow in the deep South will be gone within a couple of days(melted), so I'm not sure it will ever show up on this kind of map or not.

We've been brutally cold here for about 1 week and look to be this way for another week. December was much colder and wetter than normal and with the exception of the first week of January, we look to be the same here in January. Our lows temps aren't record lows, but our high temps are regularly 20°F(11.1°C) to 25°F(13.9°C) below normal. This kind of leads me to something I've always wondered about. Our record cold low temps in winter are mostly 35°F(19.4°C) to 40°F(22.2°C) below our coldest average low temps, while our record summer high temps are only 20°F(11.1°C) to 25°F(13.9°C) above our hottest average high temps. Why is that? Why aren't the record high summer temps and the record low winter temps about the same in terms of departure from the highest and lowest norms? Anyone?

Also, to the original poster, yes provenance can and often is very important. But this is only the provenance of original seed or cutting of a particular tree. ie. If an acorn is collected from wild Oaks growing in Nebraska, and then it's grown in a nursery in Oregon and sold to someone in Virginia, the provenance isn't Oregon, but Nebraska. So, the resulting Oak will be as winter hardy as a native Nebraskan Oak, and not that of a native Oregonian Oak, etc. Of course plants can and do make adaptations to the climate they are growing in(within the limits of the ability of that particular species) but this adaptation period is usually only a few weeks or a couple of months at best.

On a more personal note, I've found that trees with a more Southern provenance(in regards to where they are planted, like trees native to Texas and Oklahoma planted here in Kansas) or from the drier, hotter Western edge of their native range(like here in Kansas) tend to grow much faster and be more vigorous overall for me.

Resin: Beats me why the map is inaccurate. I'm looking at the snow, trying to persuade myself to go out and do 3 miles in these peculiar conditions. I've been assured that it won't be fatal. If I never post again, the assurances were misplaced. ;-)

Pam

I'll call your police if we don't hear from you, Pam. :)
The sun is out, so I'm sure that the only snow left is what fell in totally shaded spots. The shallow water in my shady bird bath is still ice - I got 1.6" of very cold rain yesterday , then it got down to 26 degrees last night.
I don't know how important provenance is, Pam, but it makes sense that the closer the seed source, the better.
Sherry

Can you believe the temperature for the Green Bay game tonight?!
Sherry

It snowed in Alabama too except the bottom 1/4 of the state (where I live) : (

Green Bay - it's painful watching that game. The ball is like a rock, so is the field.

It's 22 here now, supposed to go down to 15. I carried the pots of acorns, baby live oaks, and needle palms into the garage under the house and that's where they will stay until things warm up.

Alabama, I'm sorry you didn't get any snow. This is the first real snow we've had in 4-5 years. It was a nice change. As Sherry said, some of it melted this morning. Now it's turned to ice.

kman: With your explanation about the acorn from Nebraska, I finally got it. Thank you.

As to your questions about the climate differences, you may want to start a new discussion. I doubt people who may have answers or theories will see it here. I'd be curious to see if people in other parts of the country have noticed the same thing.

KMan, I have observed the same thing in the weather statistics but never gave it much thought until you mentioned it. I think the explanation is that during the winter, there is an enormous pool of cold air 1000 to 2000 miles north of us that is far colder than what we normally experience in our mid-latitudes. This ultra-cold air builds up in Canada because it is such a large land mass that receives very little moderating influence from the oceans. From time to time this air "invades" our regions, with an assist from the oscillations of the jet stream, and that's when we have the dramatic record-breakers on the low end.

In contrast, in the summer, there is no equivalent pool of air to the south of us that is appreciably hotter than what we already have here. Part of the reason is that much of the earth's surface in the (New World) latitudes 10 to 25 degrees N. is water, which moderates temperatures. In addition, even across the great equatorial land mass of the Amazon Basin, high temperatures never reach our records for summer heat, in part because of the high rainfall, humidity, and vegetation there. You have to go as far south as Paraguay to find high summer temperatures similar to those of the US Midwest. What places like Paraguay and the central U.S. have in common is that their record high summer temperatures are caused much less by transport of hot air from other regions than by "endogenous" heating that is facilitated by ample sunshine/relatively low humidity.

On the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you have the Sahara Desert which could be the largest summer reservoir of warm air in the world, and it has some potential for affecting southern Europe, though it needs to cross the Mediterranean, which would moderate it. However, I think the temperature differential between the Saharan summer air and what is normally experienced in southern European countries is much less than the differential between the Canadian Arctic winter air and that of the central U.S.

NOAA is showing a narrow band of snow across the US southeast now (link below). I'd guess the reason for the delay/incomplete showing might be that their satellite sensors can't pick up ground coverage of snow until after the cloud that produced it has cleared away.

I'd agree with Cacau on the extremes; of course over here, there's the huge continental bulk of Siberia out east, which occasionally sends pulses of very cold air out this way. Where I am in northern England, it has to cross 500km of the North Sea which warms it a lot, but southeastern England it only has to cross 30-50km or so of the English Channel to get there, so the southeast can be colder than the north.

Saharan air rarely ever gets this far north, but yes, it can be a problem in summer in southern Europe, and even worse in southwest Asia.

Resin

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:327155}}

Pam,

I received mexican white oak seedlings from Texas Forest Service (indian mound) and the roots are 6 inches mainly tap root. Should be easy enough to plant them. I used the "Claw" garden tool to make a hole and plant seedlings. Definitely easier than using a shovel! I'm still hurting from planting 35 seedlings yesterday and I will plant the rest this coming weekend. Imagine carrying 5g buckets of water around and giving them a little water to get it started and carrying bags of mulches around. 2 cubic feet of mulch will cover 5-6 trees for 1 feet wide mulch to keep weeds out and keep the ground cool and most. The grassy area is basically dried type that is 3-4 feet tall so I probably will mow them down and use them to mulch around trees as well.

I still have to plant 50 Nuttall oak seedlings that I'm getting in a couple weeks. Oh boy...

Lou: I have a pretty good idea as to how you felt on Monday.

I underestimate how hard these jobs will be and how long they will take. Planting 50 small trees and seedlings sounds like a snap - until you do it. I've read articles that say a person can plant a seedling in a couple of minutes, but that's not been my experience. The articles also don't mention land prep ahead of time, carrying water, and mulching the seedlings.

If my memory is correct, you are planting your seedlings on land that doesn't have a convenient source of water yet, so that makes your job more difficult. I am planting where I live so I had a few conveniences - a well and 1,000 feet of hose.

I need to develop a watering system so I don't have to drag the hose to water new trees, drag it away to mow, then drag it back to water. I have a riding mower and got a little trailer for less than $100. The trailer helped because I can carry shovels, mattock, a few buckets of water or mulch, or few small trees. The land is bumpy so half of the water spilled out of the buckets. I shifted to 5 gallon water jugs - they work much better. It was a very long, hot, tedious process - thank goodness for ibuprofen.

Bottom line: it will take longer than you expect and when you finish, you'll feel it.The good news is that the pain passes in a couple of days, just in time for you to plant the next batch of seedlings.

I hope you have good weather this weekend. I can't start yet because we've had so much rain, everything is soaked, so I need to wait. Jan -early April tends to be very wet here so I don't know how much longer I'll have to wait.

I hope all goes well this weekend.
Take care,
Pam

Pam and Lou:

I think, in all likelihood, you are wasting your time watering these little bareroot trees you are planting. I have planted bareroot seedlings, mostly, but not exclusively pines, for about 30 years (thousands of them) and I never watered even one single seedling.

If the ground is reasonably moist, bareroot trees should be fine and need no water when they are planted this time of year. I planted most of mine in the mts of western Md between mid April and mid May. The only year I lost any was 1988 when we had a historic drought, with the last real rain June 1.

Save your energies for watering if you have a dry spell in the growing season.

--Spruce

I only gave them a sip to settle the dirt around the roots. Not exactly sandy type. That's the only time I'm giving them any water. They are on their own from now on. The land is flat so whenever it rains, it just drains almost straight down plus the soil is mostly clay so they stay moisture forever as long as there's no bare ground. Spring rain storms are more or less reliable. That's all I really need to get them started.

Hi Spruce:

It's good to hear from you. It must be winter - we are answering lots of questions and our discussions wander even more than usual (I'm not complaining) as we wait for the weather to improve.

I have an image of folks on this forum - we are like a group of border collies straining on their leashes, waiting to be released so we can bound outside, in high gear.

I agree with you about watering. The water table is very high now and I don't expect this to change until late March or April. When you walk across the field, it's like walking on a giant sponge. The forester didn't have any problems pulling up loblollies and putting them elsewhere - and this was in Sept during the drought. I think the seedlings will be fine.

BTW: I do plan to order some loblolly seedlings, in addition to the LLPs, bald cypress and Norway Spruce. I have tons of loblolly seedlings but would have to dig them up, then replant them. I've read that they don't transplant well if they are taller than about 3' when dug up. If I get seedlings from the state nursery, I can omit the digging up step, which will save time. I am feeling pressed for time now - I wanted to plant most of the seedlings in late Dec/Jan before it got so cold and wet.

Are you making more plans for the new land? I don't know what "special trees" you finally decided on. As I recall, the list kept getting longer ... but isn't that the way it goes?

I hope all is well,
Pam

You're right about us being like a bunch of border collies straining on their leashes, Pam! I've got a bad case of cabin fever. It warmed up temporarily yesterday, but then it rained another cold rain, and now it's 37 degrees outside, and we're supposed to have another freeze tonight. I'm really looking forward to spring - I've got so many projects waiting to do!
Sherry

Hi Sherry:

When we have time to look up the diameters of champion trees, we probably have cabin fever. We've thought about what we want to do when the weather changes, ordered new stuff - we're ready!! But we can't go.

Our weather is colder and wetter this year - this is good since we've been in a 2 year drought. January is always the hardest month - it's cold, wet, the sun is still setting early -- and football season is over.

Things will begin to turn in February. We should have days that are warmer and sunnier. I'm grateful I don't live in a place with long dark winters.

Yes, I don't know how people up north stand it! It's 40 degrees with a light, cold rain falling again, and my feet feel like blocks of ice!. Things will turn soon!
Sherry

"Yes, I don't know how people up north stand it! It's 40 degrees with a light, cold rain falling again, and my feet feel like blocks of ice!. Things will turn soon!
Sherry"

I worked outside pretty much all week. High temps were in the single digits above zero F most days. You just have to dress for it and then it's really nice. We've had continuous snow cover since mid-December. A few inches of new stuff every other day it seems, and things are looking really good.

I've posted here or in Conifers in the past about a concern I have had, that we may be adulterating the genetics of native species when we bring in the same species, but of different provenance, for landscaping purposes. Especially now, with all the rural development, bringing these plants into contact with each other. No real concensus was reached then. Maybe not a big deal.

+oM

"You just have to dress for it and then it's really nice."

I guess I just need thicker socks! :)

Sherry

Yeah, footwear is critical! We wear "Iceman" boots by LaCrosse. With a name like LaCrosse, you just know they have a Wisconsin provenance, ;^) though I'd not be surprised at all to see 'made in China' stamped on them somewhere. I have never had cold feet in these things.

+oM