we'll just have one centered light in the kids bedrooms - they are small. Our Master has recessed lights in the corners along with a fan/light in the center, and reading lights on each side of the bed. Room is approx 16 X 16

We put one recessed light in our master bedroom above the entrance door. We planned for a second can above the reach in closet, but the roof angle prevented that so we ended up with a sconce in the header above it.

I would not put recessed light in the sleeping area or in a sitting area (if you have one.) Lamps or sconces are better there, imo.

We just about always just show a ceiling fan with a light in the children's bedrooms.......The master bedrooms of our Clients usually get a ceiling fan with a light plus some recessed can lights and sometimes wall sconces on either side of the bed.........Most children (or guest rooms) are small and don't need a lot of additional light beyond the one light in the middle........

In my previous build, each bedroom had a single ceiling fan fixture with 4 candelabra lights. It was difficult/expensive to replace those with brighter LEDs, and so each room was quite dark and you never really got used to it.

I am an avid reader and felt the light was insufficient. A bedside lamp helped, but it didn't cast the light evenly so I ended up having to hold the book just-so. If you or your family are avid readers (or if you have little ones that you hope will grow up to be readers), I strongly recommend adding at least one can light above each bed -- we opted for four in every bedroom. This also allowed us to be more flexible in our center light fixtures, since we didn't need to find one with maximum allowable wattage.

It seems common to have just the ceiling fan light in bedrooms, but I prefer 4 cans and have done that in all bedrooms in both my builds. You can always turn off light switches, harder to add lights later.

If you're putting can lights into a ceiling with unconditioned attic above, make sure your contractor does an excellent job of air sealing around the can and choose insulated, air-sealed cans as well.

A light in the center of a bedroom ceiling is in your eyes when you read in bed especially if they are on the bottom of a ceiling fan. You won't see a centered ceiling light over the bed in a good hotel. I usually mount adjustable wall lights either side of the bed or recessed pin spots near the corners with dimmers or when asked I put them over the head of the bed. The biggest issue with recessed lights is not energy loss but sound transfer to other bedrooms. But I haven't designed an unconditioned attic in 30 years.

Not necessary, unless your eyesight is very bad and you need a lot of light to clean.

We did them in M. but not kids. I think it also depends on the size of the room- kids were 11x11, so a fan w/lights, and they have a small clip-on light near their headboard for reading before bed.

I guess it's a matter of personal preference. We have them in 'working' rooms; kitchen, M. bath, M. closet, and mudroom/hall. In the other rooms, we prefer traditional lighting, whether ceiling, wall, table, or floor lamps. This is the first time I've lived in a house with ceiling cans, and I like the light, but not the look.

No!

What is missing in this discussion is any consideration of the wide variety of recessed lighting available.

The diameter, lamp type and configuration makes a big difference for recessed lighting in any room. I try to limit them to low voltage 3 or 4 inch diameter wall washers and 1 inch LED pin spots. I try to avoid larger diameter, non-adjustible, line voltage R-lamps. That stuff is cheaper but awful. It would not be fair to condem all recessed lighting because the good stuff is too expensive.

Most manufacturers even have a different brand name for their premium residential recessed fixtures so many homeowners may not be aware of them. One example is Iris from Cooper Lighting that makes Halo. Aculux is made by Juno. Calculate is made by Lightolier.

Recessed lights (can lights or pin lights) are most usually considered to be task lights, that is they are best for throwing light onto an area of some sort of task or work. Properly speced and installed, they can also be useful as wall washers for artwork, sculpture, shelving displays, etc. They are not usually good for general or ambient lighting, or for accent lighting, except where wall washers are used for highlighting a wall display of some sort.

On the other hand, ceiling mounted fixtures, and fan mounted fixtures, are really only good as minimal ambient lighting in a room, and often, when using only a single 60-watt lamp, throwing just enough light to avoid stepping on the dog's forgotten bone.

Generally speaking, this sort of lighting, used alone, gives a dim and unflattering view of a room, even a small room. They tend to look very 1940s, IMO.

There are much more creative and positive approaches to lighting, involving an appropriate combination of ambient, task and accent lighting, which used together will make any space look more inviting and more usable for its proposed use.

Putting lighting in major spaces on rheostat (dimmer) controls also adds an important degree of flexibility in how the space appears and is used.

We put 4 recessed lights in our bedroom and LOVE the light. It also updated the look and made the ceilings feel higher.

i've been thinking a lot about this as we build. I do like a ceiling fan in the master (and the dog and DH would abandon me if we didn't have one). I also need a ceiling light at certain times for cleaning, changing sheets, rummaging drawers etc, and will shop for fan with unobtrusive or nice looking light. Fans and lights operate independently and, for the most part, the light will be off and the fan on. We will use bedside lamps. The kitchen, master bath, closet, laundry and hallway will have cans.

biggest issue with recessed lights is not energy loss but sound transfer
to other bedrooms. But I haven't designed an unconditioned attic in years.

The typical R38-R 50 of fibrous insulation helps. But in an un-vented attic, flanking sounds will be unimpeded unless special measures are taken with each recessed light.

The higher-end market in my area expects dozens of recessed lights and builders oblige. In the '80s, I typically installed more than one-hundred 8" fixtures with 100-watt bulbs per home. Now builders install LEDs like the 24 in the master bedroom below.

I went a little overboard in our most recent master bedroom addition, I put recessed lights in the corners and one in the middle of the wall for a total of eight. It's a large room. I also installed a six-light chandelier on a dimmer and two small recessed lights over the headboard, each with their own switch. The room also has lamps on each bedside table. The only thing I didn't do was sconces.

Unless I am vacuuming or folding clothes on the bed, I don't use any of the ceiling lights. If I am in bed, I use the table side lamps. I have found the individual reading lights to be too bright for reading.

What I suggest for most homes is a center ceiling light or fan combination and table lamps. Something that you might consider is a 4-plug outlet by each side of the bed. Most homes just have a 2-plug outlet in the center of the wall. With four outlets, I can have a lamp, charge my phone and a mattress pad heater or heated blanket on my side of the bed. My DH can use the other set of outlets for his stuff.

JDS,

Can you please elaborate more on the virtues of low voltage 4 inch can lights vs 4 inch line voltage . We have been told that if we put LED bulbs in our 4 inch line voltage can lights it will be similar to the less used low voltage cans. We have elected to have some 4 inch can lights (line voltage ones) on the perimeter of some rooms (including bedrooms) and plan to have adjustable wall washers.

Our master is large, 20x20, with w deep tray ceiling. We are doing 4 recessed lights in the tray and a ceiling can with a light. Plus, a lamp on each night stand.

Ontariomom, 4" low voltage MR16 fixtures offer a clean bright warm halogen light that can be softened with a frosted lens (if the electrician will put them in). 4" line-voltage fixtures are designed for halogen PAR 20 lamps that don't have as even a light pattern unless they are frosted (if you can find them) or they can use PAR 20 equivalent LED lamps that are more expensive but last much longer and use less power so the pay back is quick. They look much better than the new recessed LED fixtures that are not recessed much. The trick is to find LED lamps that are warm but they will all have severely sharp shadows. This bothers some people but not others. So test the LEDs first.

You are wise to use adjustible wall washers if you can find line voltage fixtures with enough adjustment. I just put 75 of them in a large renovation. It helps to have 9 ft ceilings.

In the lighting industry these things are called by different names. Bulbs are lamps and can lights are down lights or recessed lighting. I know what you mean so it doesn't matter but you will be able to find more professional information online by avoiding contractor jargon.

Thanks for your post above, JDS. Every lighting design book I have read, always recommends the low voltage recessed down lights. However, most books on the subject are not recent publications, and the industry has involved in the last few years with the wider use of LED lamps.

In speaking to a lighting designer, an interior designer, our architect and our electrician on the subject of line vs low voltage recessed lights they all seem to say they are not installing/specifying low voltage anymore, but instead are using the LED lamps (bulbs) in the regular line voltage fixtures. Glad to read above that you are not totally disagreeing with this advice, despite still specifying low voltage MR16 for many applications. Many of our line voltage fixtures are already roughed in, so no using low voltage at this point (although we will have a few in bathrooms to light the mirror), Most of those experts we spoke to also told us to just put a ton of recessed line voltage fixtures in a grid over most rooms. The lighting books I have read and our time with a qualified lighting designer led me to take a different direction.

So, I will experiment with LED lamps to find the ones that are warm enough. I hope the shadows are not too bad. Our ceilings are 8 feet, so that may limit our success. When you said you just put 75 recessed fixtures into a large renovation, were they line or low voltage? If line voltage fixtures, what wall washer (trim kit) did you use that allowed sufficient adjustment to serve your purpose. Did you use LED lamps, and if so, what brand did you choose?

For wall washers on 8 foot ceilings (with the purpose to accent a wall unit or art, etc) how far from the wall do you usually spec?

OP says: "This would be on the second floor and an unconditioned attic is above."

Most people, including builders and architects, don't fully understand why installing recessed cans in these areas is a bad idea. Building airtight is one of the most important things you can do when building or renovating and the ceiling plane represents the best opportunity for success or failure, it's in the location under the most natural pressures with typical building envelopes.

Holes created by recessed cans including ICAT Insulation Contact Air Tight versions, leak enormous amounts of air. This is bad for wasting energy and potentially introduces moisture problems and pollutants for poor indoor air quality. Conditioned air (expensive) that leaks out, will be made up for somewhere else like from humid air through interstitial building cavities (mold), crawlspace air or cracks in the slab (radon), benzene laden air of attached garages or worst of all backdrafting chimneys or other combustion appliances (CO+NO2).

Ban The Can

Recessed Lights are Evil

Kick The Can!

The answer to better light is not necessarily more recessed cans. If you must use them in situations that involve the building envelope (like the OP's) they need to be detailed as in the blogs above. It's going to be tough to get your builder (or designer) to implement the correct enclosure details which is why it's usually best to avoid them altogether in situations like the OP's proposed location.

There are many situations that call for cans, the kitchen being the most common. David's thread in the lighting forum on LEDs is a classic that we've had great results with. The products there may be getting dated but the CREE offerings are still some of the best available.

Our house is only one story, so the dreaded cans go up into the attic. I used ICAT housings, which are not my idea of air tight, and then built and sealed drywall boxes around them. It was a lot of work detailing them, and I doubt most contractors would go to the trouble unless forced to. Before I boxed them in, you could see light through all of them, and if you can see light coming through, there's plenty of room for air to leak through. We used standard cans and LED 'retrofit' lamps, which have dropped in price a great deal.

Air sealing all attic penetrations is a big deal. Lots of air leaks past ceiling boxes, and even where the wiring comes up through the walls. It has to be done right if you have an unconditioned attic.

Ontariomom

For that project I used mostly 3 3/4" line-voltage air-sealed recessed lights to reduce cost and provide better acoustic separation. I put several lamps in them and the owner chose to use retrofit type LED lamps. The color temperature of the light is measured in degrees Kelvin. Anything at 3,000 K or below should be comfortable for residential use but people don't always agree about color.

For the adjustable wall lights, the sharp shadows of LED lamps was improved by using them in pairs. The pairs of wall lights are 24" apart and 18" from the walls. Since the wall lights are in a perimeter soffit they were slightly higher than 8 ft AFF.

Awesome, JDS. Great info. Pairs of recessed lights and 18" from wall is similar to what we have started, so we are on the right track. Glad to see there is an option for a 2 inch LED downlight. I might use that at the back of the vanity to shine on the mirror, but not over the user's head.

Why did you switch to low voltage over the beds, rather than use the 2 inch LED pinhole you used in the kitchen, LR and DR? Was it for the warmer colour that halogen offers vs LED (more flattering)?

Good lighting design information is hard to come by, so I appreciate your comments. Hope the OP does not mind the deviation from the original quesiton. Thanks!

Carol

As I recall, the low-voltage lamps had a wide adjustment angle and the LED pins couldn't. The LEDs were used to supplement hanging lights in the kitchen and dining rooms.

But I would hesitate to use LEDs in any intimate setting including a bathroom. In those locations skin tone is more important and the intensity of halogen might not be acceptable if not behind a lens.

For placing adjustable wall washers, there is no general rule. Rather, one must carefully study the manufacturer's data for the type of lamp being used, the desired intensity of light on the wall surface, and the desired location for the spread or area of illuminated coverage on the wall surface.

That said fixtures installed so that the beam of light is at a 45-degree angle to the wall area is often a common goal if possible. That is, if the wall area to be illuminated is four feet below the ceiling, then the fixtures would be placed in the ceiling four feet from the given wall.

Using wall washers in pairs always gives better illumination coverage and control when there are important objects being illuminated, such as art, and/or when a continuous area of illumination is desired in a given wall area. Don't forget the rheostat (dimmer) controls!

Yes! After years of a dim bedroom, (13' x 19') we put 8 6" cans in. The difference has been amazing. I can now tell my socks apart and see into the jewelry drawer without using a flashlight. Love the light. We used a dimmer switch on the wall for best control.

JDS,

Thanks for your comment above. What was the purpose of lighting over the bed with those low voltage 3" recessed lights? Was it for ambient lighting (e.g. indirect wall washers) or task lighting (reading)? Did you use two over bedrooms that would have Queen/King bed's in them, and one for single beds?

As per bathroom mirrors, we were planning on having two line voltage sconces on either side of the mirror and two medium beam low voltage lights set over the mirror (to cross light) . I believe with the four light sources crossing I have read that shadows would be minimal. Perhaps a frosted bulb in the recessed lights would also help.

Virgil,

Thanks for your advice too. We won't forget the dimmers, and will aim to light with pairs of recessed lights. Thanks for the pointers on positioning of recessed lights too. It seems, that there is no one set spot to position recessed lights -- too many variables.

OP:

What I would not want is the direct light from a recessed down light shinning over anywhere that someone would sit or lie down. I have read that being under a recessed light can age a person. What you want from recessed lights is indirect lighing such as wall washers, or in some cases task lighting (say over a desk) but not a light over your head. For task lighting near the bed, we are going to use narrow beam, flexible reading lights (hardwired) on each side of the bed. LED reading light would be the best as it is cool to the touch, We will aim for a narrow beam light that can be controlled on each side of the bed.

It think having some can lights in the perimeter of your room, together with a centre light would be ideal. In addition, I would plan for task reading light near the bed. Finally, you might consider recessing LED floor washers into the walls leading to the MBath (or in the Mbath) to serve as a soft night light. Be sure to position these floor washers carefully, so you will not look directly into them while lying down.

Carol

Ontariomom

The lights over the beds were requested by the owners for reading. They travel a lot and I suspect they are used to built-in reading lights. All beds in the home were Queen or King. Personally I would not want overhead lights at a bed. Someone might put the bed on another wall and it can create shadows.And it is difficult to maintain acoustic separation.

What damages skin is sunlight and it doesn't take much of it.

I have recessed lights in my master bedroom and all my bedrooms have multiple ceiling lights. When I first moved into the home, the master bedroom had a ceiling fan with lights and that was the only light in a room that was 24'x13'. I replaced it with 8 4" recessed lights. They are line voltage MR16s. Love them and the ceiling fan still has a downlight. I can see when cleaning my room at night, when picking out outfits, packing, etc. It is has a huge effect in the winter. The lights are on dimmers and this makes a huge difference. For general use, the dimmer is usually at 25%. The other bedrooms in the home which are similar sized, have five LED surface mounted fixtures and a ceiling fan with a spot light. These LED surface mounts would be my preference if I were to re-light a room. They are efficient, have great light quality at 2700K, 85CRI and are fully dimmable. They also don't require recessed housing and are cheaper to install. They are also very small and in a room with 8ft ceilings, they don't impact the height of the room.

In one room, I have the Phillips Ledino. In another, I have the Tech Lighting LED which is no longer made. It is similar in style to the Wynter. There are so many choices now for these small and shallow surface mount fixtures that I would prefer these over recessed lighting. The air infiltration around recessed lighting can be hard to address. My recessed housing is tapes with airtight vapor open tape like tescon vana to limit air infiltration.

Just saw these lights from George Kovacs which looks like a great fit for bedrooms and kitchens. These may also work in bathrooms since they are wet rated. They are 1" thick surface mounts.

Good luck!

Thanks for the other surface mount options homepro, and that Tescon vana tape is the best I've used. For other readers, be careful taping the holes in recessed can housing, it can be a fire hazard, especially with incandescents. That's why the best route is to build separate enclosures around the housing to stop air exfiltration (and air infiltration from harmful places).

If encloseing the attic with spray foam, do the cans need to be sealed? I would think they would.

If foaming attic floor, absolutely. Less need with spray foam at roof deck boundary, but for better performance, seal any protruding into attic. Better yet, avoid cans when possible and use surface mount or other options.

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