I almost always recommend following the manufacturer's instructions, but sometimes those are written by geek boys who've never picked up anything heavier than a pencil and never had a woman as a boss.

Go look at a project completed by the contractor. If he doesn't have at least one customer willing to show off his fabulous work, he isn't the right guy. Also, ask if the person who did the actual installation work will be doing the work on your project.

You don't want to find out that the tile setter who did those marvelous bathrooms is now retired and someone else is now doing that portion of the projects.

Joseph- regarding the contract and trust etc, for this I would need it, unless it was one of my trusted specialists that were doing the work. I have a tile guy who is amazing, no contract needed, a finishing carpenter, same thing. But I've been screwed over a couple times, partly due to very shoddy work, partly due to my own stupidity I guess. So I'd rather not do that. As if I get screwed over again and come back here, the first question will be, "What did the contract say?!"

Cabot & Rowe- so warranty is 2 years. And great question about the hours of work. Now I wish others would think the way you do about my 'sanctuary'. Because they do not. I am nice, trusting, but like I said, we've had issues. And I can't handle that anymore.

Thank you jellytoast.

When you're sittin' on all the money, you've got all the contract you need.

Honestly, I cannot believe that professional business people are advocating entering into a business relationship without a contract. If nothing else, it spells out what is expected of both parties. Forget about trust ... why not just write it down in the interest of clarity? Why wouldn't you want to do that, especially if you are working for a fixed price for a given amount of work? Personally, if a contractor said, "Trust me, you don't need a contract," I'd thank him for his time and show him the door. If I'm looking for a relationship and a shared experience, I'll be looking for it from someone other than my contractor. Business is business. Why not keep it professional and businesslike?

jellytoast:

I see your point and on complicated jobs I would agree that spelling things out will benefit everyone.

Most of my jobs are one day at most. I can afford to risk the occasional dishonest client. My customers rarely pay anything up front and only pay upon satisfaction; they can't lose.

If I were forced to chose between an ironclad contract with folks I wasn't sure about or a handshake with folks I was, I'd take the handshake every time.

Our average project usually takes a month to complete. Some take 3 or 4 months. A few much longer. We spell out the finer points of the work to be done in a series of emails before work begins between the designer, the customer, the suppliers, and ourselves. If anything, I make a list to remind myself of specific items. Working only ONE job at a time keeps us focused.

Contracts are great when you don't need them. When things go south, that's when you find the contract is right next to useless. Most contractors write 'performance' contracts; I'll do this for this amount of money. Not in the typical contract is what will happen when the proposed finish date is passed, when there is hidden work to be done, or a customer changes their mind. Change orders don't make a customer feel better that the price is skyrocketing, nor are they a cure-all for every contract.

We've been operating our business for 36 years on a handshake. If a customer doesn't project themselves as a good fit for our business model, we won't work for them. It has to be a good match between the customer and the contractor. We are offering an experience, not a bathroom.

I would think the major piece of mind for our customers come from the fact that we take no money up front. We are only paid upon delivery of materials or when a phase of the project is completed. The customer has nothing at risk. We are confident enough in our skills the customer will be smiling when they write that check.

Having recently contracted two showers, I would familiarize yourself with the process as if you were going to build the shower yourself. I found out too late it was crucial to be familiar with the lingo/process in order to follow the conversation on how they would be constructing the shower.

There are different ways of doing it. Don't wait until after your tile has set to find out you wish it had been done a different way. Sometimes the most confident and trust worthy people only read the back of the bucket and don't download the online instructions.

This happened to me today! My guy had used Acrylpro over redguard. The back of the bucket has extensive directions and he read them all - it is only on the online spec sheet that it says you cannot use it over a waterproofing membrane (redgaurd).

He was as ticked as I was and now worried about all the showers he had previously said, "I've done this a lot and it's never been a problem" about. We pulled the tile out together and I scraped and washed while he prepped.

There's also a chance we may run into trouble for using the redgaurd at all if my bathroom walls have poly behind them like the rest of the house.

Point is - a shower has a lot of potential to go seriously wrong since it involves water and water vapor.

A handshake is fine for some people but you have no way of knowing if the person in front of you is one of them. Or, even if completely trustworthy, up on every last detail. I don't work well with people who say, "trust me" since there's no understanding that while they may be fabulous and they know it, I don't - yet. Plenty of people do it on a handshake, but I much prefer to have all the info we have both formally agreed upon, in one place.

So - you asked for details, not whether you need a contract. Here's my experience ...

A contract that spells out how the shower will be constructed would be helpful, if you're willing to familiarize yourself with the terms and process, otherwise it's kinda useless.

Asking who will be responsible for letting you know when what materials will be needed would be helpful. (For my first shower I would ask 'what do you need from me' for two weeks followed by silence and then at 5pm he would tell me he needed the tub tomorrow.)

Will they provide you with a list of what you need to make decisions about and when your deadline is? (Like, tub, sink, etc.) Or are they used to working with a designer that lines that up for them? Are they assuming you'll go to home depot and pick in stock items? Are they choosing the materials for you? If so, are the exact materials specified down to the type of granite to be used? Will they make sure the whites of your tub and shower go together? What if you want to upgrade, how is the price differential figured?

Ask who will be doing the drywall and what level finish it will be. Is it a level 5 finish? If not, paint ready? (What does that mean to them? You can look up the standards but maybe they don't go by those standards.) One GC crafted fabulous sharp corners, whereas my dedicated drywall guy did a sloppy job and my ceiling has rounded edges that scream 'drywall tape', and will, forever. Does the job include painting?

Ask if there are options you haven't considered, but should - like radiant heat under the tiles or building drawers into the eaves or insulating under the tub, etc.

I've written too much already - but there is a lot to know. Keep digging.

zellycat2- you did not write too much at all! I appreciate the thoughtfulness and thoroughness of your post.

You have given me a lot to think of to ask. Love it.

Thanks! It's nice to hear. I'm also glad to put my frustrations to good use.

I didn't have the funds to work with a designer or an architect and I think it really threw my contactor off.

More great questions ...

- how much time do you expect to spend discussing/designing this bathroom with me? (My guy constantly complained about this so it would be good to know what he expects and then know if he's having a bad day or if you're falling in line with those expectations.)

- will you do/show me a drawing with measurements? I didn't get this, others have.

Amazing tip I read somewhere ...

- mock up vanity, toilet, etc on the floor to scale, with tape. Helps with how much room you really have and how you would walk through your new space.

Then, make sure you think in three dimensions. I stopped my guy from putting a vanity directly in front of a door. There was room, but you would walk right into it once it was in 3D.

zellycat, Im coming to you when its time to do my bath remodel. I am very nervous about shower, as it will be enlarged and concerned about vapor, etc. The other aspects will be cosmetic so no biggie.

I went thru a pool remodel/nightmare but this advice (shared by zellytcat) applies to any other major remodel: go see other jobs and ask if same worker(s) will do work. I met a guy with a nice, pretty contract and when I went to see one of his jobs, it was crap. The rest of the property was crap too so this person's standards were different than mine. A phone reference would have never shown me this. Whew, did I dodge the bullet on that one!

Personally, I would ask if person is involved in litigation and watch body language very closely. Also, if prospect got too defensive or evasive, I would apologize for my "curiosity" and continue down the list to next candidate. Contractors can be selective about who will be a good client but so can I, be selective about prospective contractor.

If a contractor has bid by the job rather than getting paid by the hour, time spent discussing/designing the bathroom with the homeowner is time that he isn't getting paid for. Not unless his fixed bid included design work, in which case it should be noted in the bid.

"Personally, I would ask if person is involved in litigation and watch body language very closely."

This works both ways. I just had a guy tell me his previous contractor quit his job and he's contemplating suing the contractor. One of them is wrong and as the new guy on the scene, I've got to determine which.

This potential told me I would be responsible if I cracked his granite top while drilling faucet holes. Although I've never cracked a top drilling faucet holes, I told him in writing that I'm not responsible and if that's a deal breaker, fine by me. He backed off.

He's foolishly let me know he's got a deadline. Deadliner's aren't in a position to negotiate price very well which may make gambling with him worth while.

Thank you zellycat...again!

We had a design build company come in about a year ago and designed us a bathroom. I taped it all up on the ground. It was the worst design ever. Then they refused to bid on a build because I seemed to know what I wanted as far as finishings went. We did not mesh. That was some money down the drain. So we are keeping the layout but prettying it up and hopefully adding a half wall to separate the toilet, or have that incorporated into the cab (I saw this gorg pic earlier, I'll post!)

Precious pony wall GW discussion

MongoCT's wall. Gorgeous.

Wow. That is an awesome sink/pony wall area. Excellent example of what molding, detail and design will do for a room, so much character and warmth!

We're near the end of a shower rebuild now. I took a risk with a contractor I know and trust; he's a jack of all trades but I trust him. I value that over going to an unknown firm which would be more expensive with no guarantee of better work. It's a handshake deal. No contract. A guy I've worked with for 10 years now but mostly as a handyman.

It's been stressful in that the job has involved aspects he's never had to deal with before e.g. steam unit and membrane waterproofing (redgard). He was fine with doing whatever was needed but I had to come up to speed quickly and point out what was needed. Redgard vs other membranes. etc.

I wish we had done more planning. It would have been helpful if he had helped us plan. Or at least laid out what was needed and when. So we had to scramble a little bit to source various pieces. For example, we hadn't considered the sill for the threshold. Or how to handle the edging for the glass tile (normally he would install bull nose tile); we ended up getting stainless steel edging. How to deal with the drain for the steam unit (it requires an air-gap). Sourcing the shower drain (we wanted a nice looking square drain that wasn't ridiculously expensive). Which shower fixtures to get and when. In this day and age of Amazon prime it seems terribly slow to have to wait a week or more for plumbing fixtures or tile to come in. We ended up selecting the niche tile based on availability vs what my wife really wanted. The fixtures came in a week later than expected (but didn't slow him down in the end since he ended up needing a few more days to complete the tiling anyway).

It doesn't really address your original question but I hope some of this helps. As the others said, the contract won't prevent shoddy work. The due diligence regarding your contractor and their work is probably more important. In hindsight I probably should have went to view some of his actual shower work but so far I'm satisfied with how it's turning out.

Great points. I will draft an email to him and ask to look at his work.

Thank you all!

So he is unable to let me look at previous bathrooms he has done in person but will give me references and pics. I'll try the references I guess and ask him so of the questions regarding finishing and tile.

Maybe you can ask for 1-2 references from jobs as similar as possible in scope to yours. Call the refs and ask them if you can come see. I realize this is a bold move since a bathroom is an intimate part of someone's house but the worst they can say is no. I think visual inspection is critical.

as an aside, I had floor tiles done. Guy gave me 2refs which I went to see, and people were so proud and eager to show the good work that it was a no brainer decision to select the guy. When The guy gives my name to somebody I will be equally glad to show his wonderful work. In short, satisfied people will show you

Thank you bossyvossy. I understand it is part of someone's house, so it is personal space. I have guys like this, where I would welcome people to come see the work! I just don't have enough guys to do the bathroom!

I have my landscaper bring people by to show them our backyard all the time. I love it when they come by and ask all these questions. I do not hesitate at all to recommend him. And maybe this bathroom guy is like that, but I don't know because I don't know him.

Understand. Bathrooms are more difficult and specialized work so, to me, more important to "see". I am not looking forward to the vetting process for my upcoming bathroom remodel. Again best wishes to you that all goes to your complete satisfaction.

Sigh, I know. I just hope it goes well.

I have asked another company for a quote as well and they are coming down on Monday night to look. Then will make a decision.Sigh. Not looking forward to it, but we have a non functioning shower and a gross whirlpool tub. I'd like to be able to use them!

The company though...I don't know. The last company that came to quote was 50K. Like really. Settle down. We were not asking for the moon.

I could get you an appointment with twenty of my former customers easily. None? That's not a good sign.

Thank you Joe. I kind of agree with you. He sited privacy of his customers.

I can see contractor hesitating to invite you to you see his customers' bathroom or whatever job he was contracted to do. But he can/should be able to share phone numbers so that YOU can ask to come see. Maybe he misunderstood what you asked, but if he didn't, stay way!

Another side note. I once had somebody do patio work and they did an excellent job, which prospective customer came to see. I did take the opportunity to tell prospect to insist that the guy allow 1/2 hr to clean up daily. I didn't and ended up cleaning every night, lunch wrappers, soda cans, construction trash, etc. It was my first time. Never happened again as I made it a point that future jobbers allow 15-30 daily cleanup. No problems since.

He said he couldn't invade their privacy but would ask them if they can give out their number/email for me to contact them.

He has 30+ bathrooms on his site and said he'll forward me some pics of what he's working on now.

Not good enough IMO. Besides aren't you agreeable when somebody asks if they can use you as a ref? I am. and most people are as they understand the value of WOM. I think the invasion of privacy argument on his part may be an excuse or else he may not understand his biz. And he won't be invading privacy, you'd be the one asking.to enter home. I guess you can always get on Facebook and see if anybody knows of the guy and his workmanship.

Good idea bossyvossy.

And yes, I'm all over good people who want to use me as a reference!

If I'm happy with a contractor's work, I'd refer him to anyone I know who asked. I'd also write a review if asked and would consider allowing someone to call me or email me for a reference if he asked me ahead of time. But I wouldn't be happy if he just passed out my phone number to people. And I would not allow his prospective customers (strangers, really) to come to my home and look at my bathroom. Asking the contractor for references is one thing, but then calling those people and asking if you can come over? That's pushing it, IMO. I would make it very clear to the contractor that that is your intention. Not everyone wants to open their home up to strangers.

I found the process of getting quotes was an education in itself - simply asking people to "run me through their process" and then listening was really helpful since I had never done anything like this before. If I had it to do all over again I would still get at least five quotes since around here, the range can be astonishing. I had a cantilevered balcony I needed rebuilt and one guy said $35,000 because he expected the entire wall to be rotted out and need to jack up the whole house and a carpenter quoted me $2,000 - and everything in between.

The opposite happened with my hardwood flooring. I had five people come and in the end they were all within $500-$1,000 of each other.

Go figure. I didn't know until I knew, ya know?

I don't know if high end jobs (mine wasn't) ever work this way but I asked for and received labor plus material quotes. They set a rate for their labor and I bought the materials directly. (I did this with the bathroom but not the flooring; the flooring had fewer components and I just made sure it was apples to apples and hoped for the best.) Sometimes he picked materials up, sometimes I did and often it was delivered but make sure to talk about it before hand because they may or may not have included pick up in their labor.

It's much harder to know what your end cost will be because you are less familiar with cost of materials than they would be but much, much easier to know where the money is going and to deal with whether you really want to spend the extra $100 to get that faucet in brushed nickel vs chrome or $.1.99 sqft for home depot tile or $700 for 3 sqft of Ann Sacks tile. There's such a huge range in the cost of materials I can't imagine doing it any other way.

My guy was generous enough to let me use his contractor's discount at his bath supplier as well. (Their discount is often determined by how much $ they put through the showroom in a year so it still helps him for me to shop there even if he isn't getting his normal cut.)

Another factor ... It's hard enough changing my mind a bunch of times and returning tile to home depot four times - I can't imagine if I had to drag someone else into that process.

Plus, you'll never pay for materials that don't show up and if you have a cash back credit card you'll get that bonus, too.

My brain just likes that it's a cleaner process, as well. I'd rather deal with craftsmen who aren't afraid to say what they charge and happily explain why they're worth it.

Zellycat2, so my quote is for labour only, and I would get his contractor's discount at the wholesalers around town. I don't mind this, as that is how my finishing carpenter worked as well. As he got to know us he would pick up supplies for us as he had a big truck and I do not. We also fed him and he shared cake with us for my bday. We really love the workers who do great work :)

Jellytoast- he was going to contact some of his previous customers and ask if it was ok to give out their number/email.

I know that if somebody let me in their house to look at work done, I would remember their leap of faith and behave the same when it was my turn. Curiously, I have made it a point to tell contractors with whom I'm happy that it's ok to use my name for reference and very, very few calls come my way. I think the good contractors have a tremendous pool of satisfied customers so it isn't like one person is going to be called every other day. At least that has not happened to me. And if it happened, then I'd call the contractor, explain to him that I've served as a reference for ___ times and that it is time for him to use somebody else.

this is important for me to do when $$$ is at stake. kitchen and baths are major deals, hanging a fan or door knobs, not so much.

You can also do it a diff way:. Ck out your friends' remodel jobs and if you like it, ask for their guy. You know in advance what the work is like, and what's left is to discuss and negotiate in relation to your remodel needs.

Can you ask your finish carpenter if there's someone he likes?

Oh zellycat2, I have asked him and my tile guy as well! My finishing carpenter said he would do the vanity. The tile guy can do the tile. I have a plumber the tile guy recommended. I'm missing an electrician and a general carpenter guy to tear it all apart and add some wall in the closet area. (and a drywaller and a taper...I could maybe get our old painters by, but he's retired). I've been screwed over by the new painter even after getting him to do a bunch of work, the last time we asked him he subcontracted the job out to some yahoos and they damaged our floor and did an awful job on painting our trim that we kicked them out).

Maybe I'll ask our carpenter again. See, he also works a different full time job (he does his finishing on the side and on his vacation, so he is slooow but great and precise). I'll text him later and see. Thanks!

And bossyvossy, nobody else has seemed to be doing renos, and if they are it's all DIY.

So plan...ask finish carpenter again, maybe something came to him, but then I'd have to act as my own GC. Which I think I can do...maybe. If I want to go insane.

There's so many moving parts, it would definitely be tough. You could probably do it if you've been through a reno before and gathered enough tips on here (like have all your materials before you begin would be mine).

I think you posted a really interesting question, though, that got sidetracked among the pros early on from, "what specific questions can I ask contractors to separate the yahoos from the awesome types on this website" to whether a contract is necessary or not.

I think it's a really interesting question. Maybe a new post with a different title is in order? With a specific request not to debate contract vs no contract?

I'm sure you can turn it into a pithy title but something along the lines of, 'what specific questions would you ask and answers would you be looking for to determine if a contractor follows up to date, best practices for a tub/shower/steam room/attic reno/moving lines/x sqft, etc?' (I think if you give details on what you're doing it would yield more specific results.)

For instance, if anyone tells you they are going to tile over drywall run like the dickens. (Or over on contractor talk or John bridges forum I think most of them would say if a guy uses mastic, run.) Whereas I think both Kerdi and Redgaurd are well regarded and it's just preference. I'm not a pro though so that's why I think it's an interesting question!

There must be questions and answers pros would know to ask that would help?

If you do it, post a link here! I think it's a great topic.

Thanks zellycat2.

I actually posted the contract on a different thread but only got 1 response. I didn't include price, because really, it's worth different$ to different people, but it did outline what was included etc.

Oh, ok. Let us know what happens and how it looks when you're done!

I know you're thinking about grout and while surfing for info on seam lines I came across this excellent thread on grouts and thought of you ... http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2831019/grout-experts-fusion-pro-kerapoxy-spectralock-bostik

I think I have a winner ...

"When is the last time you changed a construction method and what prompted the change?"

Benign, open ended and I think really insightful. I'd be psyched to hear yearly tradeshow, greenbuildingadvisor, John bridges forum, contractor talk, ongoing education, Holmes on homes, working with a peer, even customer tip. Not so much, "product failure" but wouldn't necessarily be damning. I think, "I've been doing this for 30 years and I know what I'm doing" or a defensive "why do you want to know" as the worst reply.

If they don't mention it in the answer I would also ask where they learned of the change, interesting and you might hear of a new resource.

Very interesting zelly!

I was talking to my coworker who knows me well. She said instead of a company I should GC it myself.

Sigh. This could be done. I just need a general guy and an electician. Maybe I should start with the shower and the plumber so at least we can use our space.

akl_vdb:

If you GC, just remember you have little leverage over your subs. When a guy who throws them 100K in work every year calls, they may throw you under the proverbial bus.

Is that your only bathroom?

People do it. Maybe it's more important your co-worker knows what's involved in being a GC than knowing you? I don't know. When I started I knew nothing and had no experience, so I knew no way. Having gone through two bathrooms, if I had the time I might consider it but I'd spend so much time doing research I'd probably never complete it.

Are you moving pipes?

If not, you might be better off with a skilled, insured expensive handy man who would relish your input. Someone who loves to learn but is so swamped with work, they'd be glad to have you figure out the best grout, water proofing system, exhaust fan requiremens, etc. Those types do it all themselves so you'd only have to find the one right fit instead of asking the GC what type of grout his tile guy uses as that usually ticks them off and sets up red flag for them that you're going to be a PITA.

Maybe that would be a better fit if your primary concern is that it's done with best practices? Maybe being your own GC is the best fit if you have enough experience to pull it off and your focus is best practices, exquisite craftsmanship and your budget allows for that?

Precious pony wall GW discussion

"MongoCT's wall. Gorgeous."

Thanks!

MongoCT...I totally love your vanity! I neeed it for mine. I have an angle, but pish posh, I'm sure you could do it for me :)

Zelly - my tile guy already knows I'm a PITA, but he does my work anyways :) My finishing carpenter feels like a member of the family...maybe I could get him to build Mongo's ponywall cab. And we have 2 other toilets and 1 other bath/shower. We haven't been using our ensuite shower or bath in years. I just want to use it!

If I could do it in stages...it might be a bit more expensive than doing it all together with the subs I hire, but less than if I hire a company. And more stress for me. But not if I use my tried and true amazing guys.

Hmmm. And my coworker's husband built their house a few years ago and is a finishing carpenter, so she knows my plight!

And Treb, I hear you. My guys are busy but don't do huge jobs (as far as I know). They have done work for me before, but I have been screwed over by a crappy plumber from a company that does a lot of restoration work. Now I know why. Thank you for the pro opinion!

Sounds like your path is becoming clear ... !

I sent that vanity pic to my carpenter. He said that's the kind of cabinetry he builds and that it is very nice and that we can look at that down the line. Sweet!