"Anyone with any intelligence knows Hillary has lied".

Sure she has. You're right: anyone with any intelligence knows Hillary Clinton has lied.

Are you saying, then, that it's those w/o any intelligence supporting Trump, and every other politician under the sun, besides maybe Jimmy Carter, by suggesting they have not lied????

"She has stolen. Has yet to be proved." Correct. She's also committed murder, which has yet to be proved; she has had 45 abortions, yet to be proved; embezzled millions from the Clinton Foundation, yet to be proved; beats up children, yet to be proved....but it's all true just because I say so! I love how that works in right-wing world! Just say it, and it's true, but don't forget to add, "Has yet to be proved" to cover your lying butts.

Wait, lying butts? Oh, irony!

"Benghazi was just the latest. She was in charge." Huh?

Bush and Rice were in charge leading up to and on 9/11/01. Please get me the transcripts from the Republican "Special Committee" to "get to the truth" of that. Thank you.

there we have it yet again: Benghazi was WAY worse than any other terrorist attack ever in the history of mankind, including 9/11.

Weird.

as for lying, hmmmmm.....

Is that a "no, I'd prefer to not address the massively lying Trump even though I supposedly think lying is so bad as to render someone unfit to be president?", Ingeorgia?

As the wife of a former USAF fighter pilot, stationed in Europe & who trained at an airbase in Italy, I could never understand why help was not sent to Benghazi during the 9 plus hour attack. This is what troubled me the most, because I know there are fighter jets in Italy and our military is ready. A member of the squadron leaked that there were fighter planes on the tarmac, armed & ready to go, waiting for an order. No order was given, no military assistance or rescue launched. The reason they couldn't launch a rescue is the same reason they lied about the video - to keep the American people from knowing it was a planned terrorist attack & to protect Obama's re-election.

The charts by cattyles and tibbrix tell a very sad story. What other profession besides politics can you be on the moral high road when you only lie 29% of time.

Now the fact that Trump's number comes in at a full 71% of the time he is telling a lie, disgraceful. That should be on every newspaper headline.

nonsense, romy718.

I do wish Americans would get themselves better informed and stop considering what they want to be the case to be "informed". It isn't.

Your declaring they lied about the video is, btw, a lie, and shows us your real agenda.

Why is real info. so hard for so many americans now? It's pathetic.

For your edification, romy (and btw, what does being the wife of a former USAF pilot have to do with anything??)

"There never was a stand-down order," said the base chief known as Bob, speaking publicly for the first time. "At no time did I ever second-guess that the team would depart."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-cia-chief-benghazi-michael-bay-13-hours-20160115-story.html

About 4:45 p.m.: “U.S. security personnel assigned to the mission annex tried to regain the main building, but that group also took heavy fire and had to return to the mission annex.”

About 5:20 p.m.: “U.S. and Libyan security personnel … regain the main building and they were able to secure it.”

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/10/benghazi-timeline/

Fact-checking Benghazi: The rhetoric hasn't matched up with reality

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/may/16/fact-checking-benghazi-our-most-recent-round-/

Besides, common sense should tell you that no president or SOS or anyone else responsible would just ignore an alert that a US embassy is under attack, and the fact that the right wing wants to portray the Benghazi situation really only shows that THEY are the ones who did not take this attack seriously and only see it as potential political and electoral fodder.

Sick, and sickening.

Honestly, I don't understand why one side thinks they have the 'real' information over the other side. For that matter, I don't understand how any civilian could possibly believe they know even a smidgen of either inside information or how to run the country and the world.

These continuous arguments are an enormous and pointless waste of time and energy, imo. People would better serve their country and fellow citizens, the world, by volunteering to work on the issues meaningful to them instead of spewing vile and divisive hatred online (likely offline as well).

"FinallyHome

The charts by cattyles and tibbrix tell a very sad story. What other profession besides politics can you be on the moral high road when you only lie 29% of time."

Probably every single one, actually. Human beings lie, for various reasons. All the time. In every profession.

I think a better question is, in what other profession can the person who lies 29% of the time be considered the only liar and have lying a disqualification, while the opponent lies 71% of the time and the same people hollering about her being a liar don't care?

Romy, so you choose to dismiss the testimony of General Ham?

"General Ham himself testified
before the House Committee on Armed Services in June 2013 that the
decision not to deploy close air support during the attack was made by
him based on his assessment of the situation at the time, not because he
was ordered to "stand down":

I will admit to giving a lot of thought about close air support. And in the lead up to September 11th,
in the discussions about what forces should we have available, it was
my determination, obviously with advice from others, but the
responsibility was mine as the commander, was that close air support was
not the appropriate tool in this situation.

And as I look back on the events of that night and say ... and think in
my own mind would air have made a difference? And in my military
judgment, I believe the answer is no. It was a very uncertain situation
in an environment which we know we had an unknown surface-to-air threat
with the proliferation particularly of shoulder-fired surface-to-air
missiles, many of which remain unaccounted for. But mostly it was a lack
of understanding of the environment, and hence the need for the
Predator to try to gain an understanding of what was going on.

Knowing the intelligence that I had at the time, not obviously what I
have now, but the intelligence I had at the time caused me to conclude
in my military judgment that attack aircraft would not be the
appropriate response tool. And so I did not direct a heightened alert.
That is obviously fair for criticism, and knowing what we know now maybe
that was — maybe I would make a different decision. But close air
support I think, I still even knowing what I know now, think that was
not the right tool to effect change in this situation. "

My husband was also a USAF pilot who served in Vietnam. I think that it is irresponsible to repeat information from one source without checking the source or looking at other sources as well. To accuse the president of playing politics here is unacceptable. Did you bother to review the information cattyles posted? The idea that you know what went on in those hours is preposterous and as a former military wife, you should know better. Here is an article from Business Insider that might give you another outlook on this, if you read it. I just do not understand the lack of critical thinking that goes on these days. Ambassador Stevens knew Benghazi was not safe. He wanted to go there to demonstrate his close ties to the town. His mother has asked that his name not be used by Republicans to make political points. She does not blame either Clinton or President Obama. The least we can do is honor that.
source

Heaven help us.

So many rumors, rumors of rumors, and hearsay. This is what many mistake as fact, and that's why there's a megalomaniac who feeds off of this sort of thing that's in the running to lead our country. It's shameful.

Romy, so you choose to dismiss the testimony of General Ham?

"General Ham himself testified before the House Committee on Armed Services in June 2013 that the decision not to deploy close air support during the attack was made by him based on his assessment of the situation at the time, not because he was ordered to "stand down":

I will admit to giving a lot of thought about close air support. And in the lead up to September 11th, in the discussions about what forces should we have available, it was my determination, obviously with advice from others, but the responsibility was mine as the commander, was that close air support was not the appropriate tool in this situation.

And as I look back on the events of that night and say ... and think in my own mind would air have made a difference? And in my military judgment, I believe the answer is no. It was a very uncertain situation in an environment which we know we had an unknown surface-to-air threat with the proliferation particularly of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles, many of which remain unaccounted for. But mostly it was a lack of understanding of the environment, and hence the need for the Predator to try to gain an understanding of what was going on.

Knowing the intelligence that I had at the time, not obviously what I have now, but the intelligence I had at the time caused me to conclude in my military judgment that attack aircraft would not be the appropriate response tool. And so I did not direct a heightened alert. That is obviously fair for criticism, and knowing what we know now maybe that was — maybe I would make a different decision. But close air support I think, I still even knowing what I know now, think that was not the right tool to effect change in this situation. "

"JePense, I'm not sure if you are related to one of those students or what; your post sounds very personal to me."

No, not related.

My point being that when you voluntarily take a job or do something, no matter what it is, that involves a high risk of death or injury that's a decision you make.

Whether you do it because you want to help people, like the status it gives you, or the compensation and benefits you receive that's your decision.

Our embassies have security protocol, guards, fortified structures, etc because the fact is that American embassies anywhere in the world are targets.

Going to school in Ohio and being murdered by American troops on American soil is not a risk associated with going to university in this country.

I Stand by my assessment that it was far worse than any embassy attack so we'll just have to agree to disagree, it is my opinion after all and that's all it is.

Now, on the other hand - back to your OP - I totally agree and it's a sad commentary on what a lot of people find important and how women continue to be judged.

Re: Romy 718's comment - As the wife of a retired Army officer and Army chopper pilot, I have no idea about any military operations anywhere and (I asked) neither does my husband so I can't offer any fantastical insight :-P

I never said that I had information that came from a retired USAF pilot. I said I never believed that we didn't have resources in the area that could have launched a rescue. The mainstream media gave very little coverage to Benghazi. The information is out there. Read the Benghazi report.

As far as General Ham, he was unexpectantly removed from his Africom command a month after Benghazi, as was a Navy Admiral who was also reportedly told to stand down.

Squadron member speaks out

The Benghazi Report, additional views

Back to the OT, this is what Ivanka tweeted the day after her speech at the RNC "Shop Ivanka's look from her #RNC Speech". Just another self-promoting celeb. It makes me think, more and more, that this is just a vanity thing for the entire family. Seems the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree in that her clothing line is manufactured in China and Viet Nam.

I remain curious. For those who admire Ivanka, can you tell us what it is you admire about her? I understand that she comes across as poised and well-spoken, and she is obviously an attractive young woman. Is there more to it than that?

Thanks for asking again, Ida - I'm still curious as well.

FALSE: General Carter Ham was relieved of his command for attempting to provide military assistance during the Benghazi attacks.

On 29 October 2012, General Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, also asserted that this rumor was false:

The speculation that General Carter Ham is departing Africa Command (AFRICOM) due to events in Benghazi, Libya, on 11 September
2012 is absolutely false. General Ham's departure is part of routine
succession planning that has been on going since July. He continues to
serve in AFRICOM with my complete confidence.

Source: http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/benghazi.asp

______________________________________________________

Head of Africa Command Not Forced Out

"The Obama administration’s decision to grant retirement to the top general of U.S. Africa Command
is part of the internal jockeying that goes on among the military
branches to win top war-fighting assignments and was not related to the
terrorist attack on the U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, a
well-placed military source told The Washington Times.

Ever since Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta earlier this month announced the departure of ArmyGen. Carter F. Ham from Africa Command,
the Internet has been abuzz with speculation that he was pushed out.
The rumor mill suggests he was fired for not ordering forces to
intervene directly in Benghazi during militant attacks on the U.S.
Consulate and a nearby CIA base. Others speculated that he wanted to
send forces but was overruled. U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens
and three other Americans were killed in the attack.

The real story of Gen. Ham’s retirement is linked to the career of Gen. David M. Rodriguez, one of the Army’s
top field commanders. He now heads Army Forces Command, a
non-war-fighting job that ensures the readiness of 820,000 soldiers.

Forces
command is not among the most prized assignments for a war fighter. The
most coveted posts sought by the four military branches, outside the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, are the geographic combatant commands.

The
four-star commanders fight the nation’s wars. None is more prominent
than the chief of the U.S. Central Command, which led the war in Iraq
and is overseeing Afghanistan. That war has its own four-star, Marine
Corps Gen. John R. Allen, in a post that has all the prestige of a
combatant commander."

More at source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/7/head-of-africa-command-not-forced-out/

I can't speak for the reasons why people admire her but will address the most likely reason why some democrats are trying to shed her in a bad light...Ivanka is increasingly becoming a huge threat. She is the anti-Trump Trump who is very much loved by many working women who are both democrats and republicans. She also softens the Trump hates women slogan with her success within as a woman and proves the equality of gender. Ivanka is also making slow but steady progress with Latinos. While her father is so far not high on the list Ivanka is softening that edge as well. She just appeared on the cover of Spanish language Jet Set magazine in Columbia. There are many other accomplishments but mainly, as said at the beginning of my reply she is becoming a huge threat. I hope she is ready for the slander and serious bashing she is about to get. Many nervous Nellies are determined to put an end to her popularity.

"I remain curious. For those who admire Ivanka, can you tell us what it is you admire about her? I understand that she comes across as poised and well-spoken, and she is obviously an attractive young woman. Is there more to it than that?"

Early in this thread, I wrote that she was my favorite Trump. That's all there is to it. She would be my favorite, if I had to choose one person from that family that I liked best.

Read the above Benghazi report & the Citizens Commission on Benghazi & draw your own conclusions. The American people & Congress have never gotten the whole truth regarding Benghazi.

Forces available & spinning as we speak per General Ham

Don't bother printing George Soros Media Matters response to this. The media is the 3rd arm of the progressive Democratic party as evidenced by the this weekends DNC email release.

It's time for this thread to get back to Ivanka. I apologize for veering off topic.

I am afraid that no amount of fact-checking will convince those determined to believe what they wish were true.

I'm not a fan or either candidate and I wish we had a plausible third choice. But since we never do and to vote for any third party candidate just weakens one of the main two...here we are.

The only hope I see is the success of Bernie Sanders campaign (to a point) and even Donald Trump's....in that they surprised the establishment and made progress without the party money.

Maybe we'll start seeing other candidates running for office, who don't have to sell out so many of their principles to get party backing. For people to be able to campaign on social media and not depend on that big party war chest....that to me shows hope for the future.

Hmmmm. I guess I just don't see Ivanka as any kind of threat, nor do I think smearing him with butter and running him through a wood chipper would "soften" her father in the least. I neither like nor dislike Ivanka, but because her bloviating daddy disgusts me beyond words, I suppose I tend not to want to lend any credence whatsoever to his progeny. They are, at the end of the day, Trumps too.

Thanks for responding to the question, though. It's interesting to get the take of others on why they find her appealing.

maddielee, I feel the same as you. If I "had" to pick a favorite Trump, it would be her. I do like her. Admire her, no. My admiration is reserved for someone based on their actions and accomplishment. I dont know of anything that Ivanka has done in her life that I would admire.

I admire her choice in a wedding dress - it was lovely.

But seriously, I agree with RoseAbbey - what has she done lately? Or ever?

I think I overstated it when I said I admire her. Honestly, I had no basis for saying that. As I said in the OP, in fact, all I've ever actually seen her speak about was her echoing her father's putrid comments about Rosie O'Donnell, and I remember being disgusted by her then. I think I was speaking to her outward poise.

But whether admired or not, I was really struck by the fact that, all I read the morning after she spoke, was about her dress.

Here is but a few articles on Ivanka. My interest was peaked after this post. I didn't really know much about her except that I liked her calm intelligent manner.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article90790987.html

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/ivanka-trump-2016-donald-trump-214079

Romy, I certainly agree with you regarding much of conventional media's liberal leanings. But the 2 sources you include above (AIM and Judicial Watch) are most certainly funded by conservatives.

Cyn427 is spot on: I am afraid that no amount of fact-checking will convince those determined to believe what they wish were true.

Likewise, we read, cite and follow the media we wish to be true.

Donald Trump's quotes (below) from the link Justerrilyn shared above are deeply disturbing to me. He's commented publicly on his daughter's body more than once. This demonstrates a serious lack of filter on his part.

I'm trying to learn more about him and perhaps be more receptive because he may very well be my next POTUS. But I find his comments about Ivanka so inappropriate that I don't understand how he can be trusted with arguably the most important job in the world.

She is physically fit and attractive, as her own father has pointed out more than once, raising eyebrows. “She’s got the best body,” he once told radio shock jock Howard Stern. “If Ivanka weren’t my daughter, perhaps I’d be dating her,” he once said on TV. “If I weren’t happily married and, you know, her father …” he said just last fall.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/ivanka-trump-2016-donald-trump-214079#ixzz4FZk8Mh5Q

Can you imagine the reaction if Barack Obama commented on his daughters' bodies in the same manner that Donald Trump has commented on Ivanka's body?

Really... can you imagine?

The "conventional media" did not have liberal leanings. It was professional journalism, which we lack now. Americans were much, much better informed then than they are now. If people want to call that "liberal media" and credit a "liberal media" for better informing Americans than what we've got now, a consequences of Murdoch and Ailes, so be it.

What I want is a professional press.

LisaD the double standard is alive and well. Some of us realize the grace our current first family has exhibited these 2 terms and some don't. But history will. Of that I'm certain.

eta - this is not a 'show' of grace. This is how they live, think, act, believe. It's in their bones.

LisaD, I'm trying to think of even one thing that has come out of that man's mouth that isn't either creepy, stupid, including some version of "me", relentless use of superlatives regarding himself much like a child, mean-spirited, silly, irrational, illogical...

I really can't. The guy really is a buffoon.

From Twitter the other day..

"Imagine what Republicans would have said if Barack Obama featured his 5 kids from 3 different women at his convention in 2008..."

Huntley & Brinkley, Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings -- please come back! (I wish)

OMG. That Trump quote above about his daughter makes me feel physically ill. It really does. I have no words to describe how revolted I am right now. And people think this POS would be a good commander-in-chief of our country?!?!? How positively vomit-inducing.

I find the quotes creepy as well Lisa! She was and is daddy's girl but it is a shame he wasn't quoted saying something about how well she did in school, college or something important.

I have read a few lines here and there where he has commented on her intelligence. I think after reading much on Ivanka since this posting I have the beginnings of admiration for her. I think as a woman she had to work much harder to gain her fathers full respect as a business woman compared to that of her brothers. It seems that The Donald does hold her in much higher regard than his sons. It seems Ivanka has taught her dad a thing or two .

And he seems to have inappropriate boundaries about touching her as well:

Keep your hands off her! Yuck.

At what point does someone become a traitor?

We are not even allowed to "joke" with the TSA.

Sorry to be off topic. I'm just... SMH.

I want him out, especially for today's irresponsible comments.

I think as a woman she had to work much harder to gain her fathers full respect. It seems that The Donald does hold her in much higher regard than his sons. It seems Ivanka has taught her dad a thing or two .

And that says volumes about what a lousy human being he truly is.

I'll be 54 years old next month, and I know with certainty that I've never - not once in my entire life - had to "work" to earn the full respect of my father. I cannot imagine it being anything other than unconditional, can you?

I'm sorry but they both bite. Is this the best our great land can come up with?

Hillary Clinton & Donald Trump are now equally unpopular.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/hillary-clinton-and-donald-trump-are-now-equally-unpopular/

Donald Trump and Hillary email statements vid. Did he do this on purpose to bring attention to himself during the Democratic Convention or did it just start out as a joke?

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/elections/100000004554702/trump-urges-russia-to-locate-clinton-emails.html?smprod=amp&region=img

"nor do I think smearing him with butter and running him through a wood chipper would "soften" her father in the least."

And IdaClaire for the win!! Best political analysis of the Donald yet LOL

LOL!

And ... for those who don't like either choice, I did read that The Cat In The Hat has announced his candidacy, with Thing 1 and Thing 2 as running mates.

Well, why the heck not?

Well, I do love Hillary but it's nice to have choices lol!

Congresswoman trolls Melania Trump by wearing her dress to DNC

I got a huge chuckle out of Joyce Beatty and the Melania dress.

I howled over this article! So fun....

http://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/news/a38183/let-us-now-praise-the-immaculate-shade-of-joyce-beatty/