I'm so sorry you are stuck in this situation. I moved out of a house last year where we had remodeled the kitchen with all kinds of wonderful things including high end appliances. Fortunately they all performed well during the 10 years we lived with the new kitchen. My new place has an average kitchen that I like just fine but I did want to upgrade the 15 year old appliances. I really felt to no desire for the high end stuff again, just decent mid-level appliances.

The more I read, and heard from people I know, the more I felt that even the very expensive appliances now are of questionable quality and long term reliability. I was looking at a $3000 induction range and a $1800 induction range. I finally decided on the cheaper one, in part, because I'd be out less money if the induction blew up sooner than later. I also bought the extended warranty which I NEVER do.

It's really too bad nearly all appliances seem to have a short lifespan these days.

Great sympathies for your loss! JWVideo said it all.

3katz4me, your decision is sound. Regarding your last line, however, there are those who want nothing less than induction with countdown timers on each element. I also know people who live barely on the grid, and who couldn't have the high tech ones even if they wanted them because the electronics aren't up to it. They buy basic model gas (lp) or electric (usually self produced wind/solar/passive generator) ranges, 50+ year old technologies, no electronics, no dual fuels, fanciest gizmo, if there's a gizmo, is a timer. Maybe an oven light or a preheat mode--mechanical. Very simple machines, very easy to adjust and repair, never actually die. Such are still available. Some are the same models that were top of the line in their day and they keep churning them out. They work. They work well. They last. But most people want more power, more gizmos, more style, more features, just more...

Keep in mind it's much easier to replace cooktops that are installed "proud" vs flush mounted.

Hold on, did you have to pay $1000 for that part? I would have shipped it back overseas and told them to bite me! I would have paid the service guy for his time (not 1k), but no way would I pay for a part that doesn't fix the issue. There has to be some guarantee... Right?

High end stuff is NEVER fun to fix. It's like the first time I had to buy brake pads for my car, I had never heard of "brembo" but at $500 (doesn't include install) now that name brand burns in my mind. My next car won't have brembo brakes or high performance tires. I'm over it.

pillog - yes I was thinking that very thing as I wrote. We have appliances that now have all kinds of bells and whistles and much more to go wrong. I've been reading about steam ovens which I don't think existed when we did our kitchen remodel. Really, we need steam ovens now? Like steam washers and dryers? And four door refrigerators with components that can convert between fridge and freezer function? Yikes!

No, no, steam ovens are totally different than steam washers. I have a convection/steam oven and it's fabulous! Steam ovens have been around for decades but more in commercial settings or steam only for homes, but more common in other countries. It started after the whole pro cooking equipment fad peaked.

Okay, that said, there's nothing I can do in my steam oven that I can't do in a regular oven, WITH an extensive knowledge of how to achieve my aims, and a high tolerance for experimentation. The kinds of things you have to work very hard at, and which homemakers used to go to culinary school to learn. No one has time for that anymore. The combi-steam oven is SO much easier and doesn't require a century's worth of cookery knowledge.

I totally get what you mean, and you have a good point, but I think there's good use for the fridge too. The flexible spaces make it convenient. Think of it as the sleeveless dress of fridges. You can fit a dress to far more body types and individual figures if you don't have sleeves. You can do the same with a fridge to a home if you don't decree how much freezer space it has, but let people choose. A lot of people really hate those french doors with the massive freezer drawer, which is too tall to get into easily and holds too much. Others love the capacity. The four door gives you easy access and you can set it to have the right kind of capacity for your needs.

BUT, these are wants, not needs. And by their nature, they're just not going to last longer. It's the computer inside that makes it do all the cool stuff, and those are vulnerable in a way that valves and pipes just aren't, as well as being really expensive parts to replace.

If it makes you feel better, I have been using my Kenmore Elite slide-in induction range for 6 years (I think!) --- and I absolutely love it. Chances are, you won't notice much difference in the way it cooks between the Kenmore and the Miele.

mrsshayne wrote: "It's like the first time I had to buy brake pads for my car, I had never
heard of "brembo" but at $500 (doesn't include install) now that name
brand burns in my mind. My next car won't have brembo brakes or high
performance tires."

Sticking my nose into my perception of your best interest, I would advise against that choice, unless you consider your life to be of little value. One might not need ultra brakes if one only has to brake once in an emergency and not multiple times driving down a mountain, but always buy the best performing tires you can properly fit. (I won't go into the factors that might be subsumed into the word "properly," or argue for any particular brand. There are enough competitors in the high performance tire range, and selection among them should be influenced by the driving environment.)

kas

We are doing an induction cooktop but definitely less can go wrong with a gas cooktop that just has an igniter (no electronic controller involved).

I thought I wanted an induction cooktop but after researching it and talking to several local appliance stores, I decided to stick to my 1948 O'Keefe & Merritt stove that has had ONE small repair in the 34 years I've owned it! Induction cooktops are a disaster just waiting to happen.

Induction cooktops have been in use in Europe for over thirty years. They can die just like gas and electric cooktops have done in the past. I am sure there are people who complained about wood burning Agas not maintaining temps in their history too. I will take three induction cooktops over a gas cooktop in this current 108degree heat wave we are currently having.

Stan Z,

I had a Dacor rangetop that had at least 6 service calls in its history (6years of ownership). the fan dies that controlled something and none of the burners would light. I had multiple igniter failures and a gas regulator problem on the unit. The manufacturer did come out each time to fix it but it was not trouble free. I actually really liked the layout of the Dacor rangetop, it was one of the only 6 burner 48" cooktops which meant you had a lot of room for the pots and pans. I could actually cook with 6 large pots at a time.

Full disclosure, I have had a Miele induction cooktop and a Miele wok burner in use for 1 year.

For some people, the concern about breaking and warranties is paramount. For me, the concern is that I like it best while it's working, I don't worry about it breaking, and I don't worry about warranties and customer service (those are just icing on the cake if the issue arises). Hence, I got induction, and I love it and wouldn't go back to gas or regular electric as long as I have a choice.

The bigger question isn't whether a gas cooktop is less likely to break than an induction one. It's why the most expensive appliances aren't any more reliable than the less expensive ones. And of course when they do break down, they are a fortune to fix. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) of these things is insane compared to mainline brands.

Freeoscar,

Do you think we have enough data to make the statement that the TCO is higher for higher priced appliances than lower priced appliances? Are you comparing apples to apples? I know people make the analogy to cars, expensive versus cheaper cars. I think people perceive value differently too and this colors the way information is reported. If I pay a lot of money for a car with a backup camera and the camera stops working, I will complain heavily and this will reflect on my satisfaction with the car. A comparable car, from a less expensive line may not have a backup camera so nothing to break for that model. I see a lot of the analysis from groups like Consumer Reports and the statistics collection methods are screwed in my opinion to start with. I agree with SJhockey, from the cheapest to the most expensive, stuff breaks and you will have to deal with it.

Really the problem here is the failure to correctly diagnose the cause of the breakdown. It was something else then what was replaced. Testing with a multimeter while following a step by step procedure seems like the better option instead of almost randomly destroying $1000 parts. Sounds like untrained technicians.

For induction, the techs are trained to replace boards based on error codes. Board repair and/or power semiconductor replacement could be feasible, if not cost-effective, given a proper lab setting, but the test equipment would have to include more than just a multimeter. Induction cooktops are fairly electrically complex, and board replacement is a much easier route to functionality than board repair. The inconvenient truths are that the prices on the boards are set very high, more than one board may have failed, and just getting to the boards is an exercise in deep diving part disassembly. And when the repair is finished, one doesn't know how long it will be before other boards age out.

I now consider these cooktops to be effectively leased, because the probability of a failure in the period not too far past a supplemental warranty period is significant, and replacement is the more practical consequence, at least if the cut-out in the counter is compatible.

kas.

While all of the above comments are true, I do have to wonder why some of the .GE and Kenmore branded version induction cooktops from the early 1980's are still functioning while our modern equivalents are so fragile and short lived. My advice to an induction buyer is first choice the cheapest cooktop or second, cheapest range with longest extended warranty. When my now repaired under Sears extended warranty induction range dies again, now out of warranty, it will be replaced by the vintage stainless steel coil top range sitting in my garage. No lowest-cost Chinese supplier circuit boards at all. Real user replaceable fuses. And we will be able to efficiently use the copper and aluminum cookware again as well, as I don't think induction interface discs are efficient, maybe someone who has used them more than the few times I have can comment.

You're right. "Induction disks" are not only inefficient, they don't work particularly well. Put a heavy cast iron griddle on any stove, and put your pot on it and try to cook. It can be done. Same thing. There's no magic there.

Re the some still functioning thing, I'll compare fridges. People expect a SubZero to last for decades. People don't expect a Kenmore to last for decades, even the older models that didn't have any electronics, but some of them did.

One of the issues with induction cooktops is that the electronics get hot. There is a great demand for very shallow cooktops that use up minimal cabinet space for cooling, so the design and cooling fan are created to last a minimum expected time. Some units get more stress than others depending on how they relate to the kitchen, climate and cooks. Some may be used vigorously daily but have just the right circumstances to last for decades. A lot of those older units weren't sleek and were less efficient in other ways.

Hm... I think I'll post this anyway, but I'm not sure it makes sense to those not half asleep...

I doubt all manufacturers spec cooling for some minimum lifetime. And so maximize cooling with your install with air flow space and you avoid heat probs.

In the early '80s the power semiconductors were very likely made in the USA by the same companies making MIL-spec parts. Ditto the capacitors and resistors. The EEs doing the designs may have been "raised" on designing with fat reliability margins. And while GE was apocryphally famous for discovering how many parts could be removed from their vacuum tube TVs before they stopped working, the induction cooktops were likely a new product line that couldn't be allowed to reflect poorly on GE's name (which mattered in those days).

kas

I'm responding to venmar's question: While all of the above comments are true, I do have to wonder why some
of the GE and Kenmore branded version induction cooktops from the early
1980's are still functioning while our modern equivalents are so
fragile and short lived.

Well, actually, there will be some current induction ranges that will last just as long as some of the first gen models you mentioned. Note that I said "some." Seems to me that in any given electronics product line, some units will chug on for a long time and some will not.

One of my aunts still has a functioning early Kenmore induction range. (FWIW, it was my intro to induction cooking appliances three decades and something ago.) So, the last time I needed a new stove, I looked into maybe getting a "pre-owned" Kenmore induction range from the 80's. A bit of research showed that every story of longevity like my aunt's was swamped by many tales of woe, of gnashing of teeth, of unrepairability, etc. etc.

My take away is this: it is really hard to say if all of our "modern equivalents" really are significantly more fragile and shorter-lived than the older induction models. Or older stoves generally. As plllog says of fridges, nobody really expected a Kenmore to last for decades, even the older models that didn't have any electronics, but some of them did. That some antique appliances are still around and working doesn't necessarily make them better than the current models.

That being said, I certainly see the appeal of Venmar's vintage back-up coil burner range for simple reliability and durability. It is not just induction, either; it is pretty much all major brand appliances which run off circuit boards. But there will be tradeoffs. The extent of those trade-offs may or may not be worthwhile to any given one of us.

As appealing as the simplicity and reliablity factors can make a vintage range seem, there are still some major trade-offs in day to day cooking such as waste heat, slow responsiveness, uneven ovens, etc. Seems to me that this is pretty much applicable to all appliances. Fr'instance, even with all my neo-luddite tendencies, there is no way I would trade my
current Kitchenaid/Whilrpool FD fridge for the 1954 Westinghouse chill
chest I had in graduate school 40 years ago. The problem as I see it is the uncertainty. There is no way to know if your unit is going to last a long time or fail early. That is why I find myself nodding in agreement every time Kas says "I now consider these cooktops to be effectively leased . . ."

Regarding Kas' s comments about GE maybe building those old induction ranges better, my recollection is that those early GE and Kenmore induction ranges were actually rebadged units built by Sanyo in Japan.

Sanyo: If so, I retract my speculation, although I am surprised that the necessary high-power/high-efficiency tech was available in Japan at that time. Maybe they used SCRs sourced from GE.

jw: Did those early models have pan sensing? Modern microprocessors make feasible a lot of features that would have required a lot of board space holding primitive logic to do in the early 80s.

Do you mean the ability to sense a minimum magnetic mass before turning on? I can ask my aunt to check the next time she's at the vacation house (where the old Kenmore now resides), but my recollection is that the 1980s models of induction ranges and cooktops all had to register a certain magnetic mass or they would turn themselves off. I'm also recalling that someone here --- maybe Fori --used to post about an early 80s kenmore cooktop. (I thnk Fori now uses the handle "Fori is not pleased" and is still around.)

IIRC, the logic for that pan sensing was (and is) pretty simple. It would not have required much board space even on early 1980s circuit boards. I'm also thinking that boards weren't so primitive back then. Seems to me I was lugging around an Osborne portable computer back in the fall of 1981. I also recall getting one of the first real laptops, a Gavilan SC, sometime in 1983 at about the same time my aunt and uncle bought their Kenmore range. (Before then, there also was Radio Shack's rather lightweight TRS80 (aka the "Trash 80") which a fair number of folks used for a laptop.)

Meanwhile, back at the point, my recollection is that the Kenmores also had a pan overheat sensor. I once left a cast-iron pan to pre-heat on my Aunt's stove and got districted by something. The pan got so hot that the stove shut itself down. Took half an hour to cool down and start working again. I suppose that is another kind of pan-sensing.

Pan sensing has become more sophisticated than it used to be. Some induction burners can now adjust fields to the pan size. I think Franz at centurylife.org discusses this kind of pan sensing in his review of the Vollrath Mirage Pro portable induction cooker. That kind of pan sensing would likely have required a fair bit of board real estate in the 1980s.

My Miele 30" cooktop died in 7 to 8 years. Repairs of two boards cost $1800. We really like this unit yet it is dissapointing to pay $3K for it to die so soon.

If you threw it out after 7.5 years, your "leasing" cost would have been $33./month or a bit over a dollar a day. Let us know when it next fails and we can recalculate based on a $4800 cost basis.

With respect to an earlier point about heat removal and packaging, it may aid longevity to ensure that the unit is not installed in a closed minimum sized box, but has access to the air in the entire cabinet.

Since I am reading this and see that my post was 5 years ago I will report that my Electrolux slide in induction range is still functioning well. It will be 10 years old in November 2021. I will miss the 2 speed convection fan when it does break down but getting to use the vintage, 1967 Canadian Enterprise-similar to USA Monarch- coil range's mirror chrome plated oven will be interesting.

Electrolux uses the same boards as Miele and they are repairable boards. Usually the IGBT's (power transistors) and rectifiers blow and they are relatively easy to replace and components are still available. Just find an electronics workshop to do it if you can't yourself. Parts come to around $20 -40 depending how many are blown.

Our 11 year old Miele induction cooktop that was billed as lasting 20 years has also died. Miele says $2100 to repair (almost the same price as a new induction cooktop from another manufacturer.) We paid for an expensive cooktop because we were told it would last. I would absolutely not buy another Miele induction cooktop - or any of their other products (we had a bad experience with their washer/dryer too). They dont stand behind their products (refused to give us a discount on a new cooktop) and their products don't stand up to their hype. Very disappointed. I hope no one else makes the mistake we did.

Seems to me that the disappointment is going to be particularly sharply felt with so many appliances currently being in short supply. My first thought would have been to suggest checking out a Habitat Re-Store for something to tide one over until the supply situation improves. However, when I walked through our local Re-Store this week, they had only one pretty beat up not-so-old smoothtop range. No cooktops let alone anything remotely like Venmar's chrome-plated, vintage CE/Monarch range with the coil burners which might be pleasingly decorative, at least.

Maybe get by for the time being with a couple of portable induction cooktops (PICs) or something from Instant Pot? FWIW, Amazon does seem to have numbers of well-rated PIC models in stock for prompt deiivery.

As an aside, it is interesting to see this old thread revived again. with a notice turning up in my e-mail inbox when I didn't get any for the reviving posts from four months ago.