Granted my central Florida climate is considerably different from yours, but here, I'd say the two are not similar. First off, do you really mean Archduke Charles? Not Archiduc Joseph (=Mons. Tillier)? I ask because A. C. is a China, not a Tea. DNA testing shows it to be indistinguishable from Old Blush and the Green Rose, although obviously they are quite different -- but apparently genetically very close indeed.

Here, Rosette Delizy is a big, typical Tea -- eventually perhaps 6-8' tall by at least 8' wide. Bloom is nearly constant. In humid heat, the flowers are a creamy yellow with just a bit of pink; in chilly weather, though, it develops that beautiful pink/red flush on the outer petals for which it is famous.

Archduke Charles is more compact -- maybe 4' wide by 6' tall (I'm not sure how much bigger it might get -- we hard prune ours every spring). Also constant blooming. In hot weather, a pretty deep pink with some red; in chilly weather, it can deepen to true red. We're in a strong black spot area but get powdery mildew just for a short period in winter/spring. Both of these roses are reasonably good against both.

For knock-your-socks-off landscape appeal, in a hot climate I'd choose Archduke Charles; in a cooler climate, I might switch to Rosette Delizy.

Thank you very much Malcom manners for sharing your thoughts and experience!

Yes, Archduke Charles, but oops that it is a China and not Tea... only starting to learn about roses, I have these two classes grouped together in my mind as old, tough plants that grow well in CA, but I will have to read more about what distinguishes one from the other.

I wanted to compare/contrast these two because they both have a really interesting bicolored appearance to the flowers.

Great to read that AC is more compact! Gosh, it seems that teas are generally all 8' x 8'...

I have never grown AC, but have had RD for many years. Below is a pic of mine in my zone 9/10 mediterranean climate in Nor Cal. There is ONE very good pic of a mature bush of AC on HMF - you have to click through lots of pages of pics of just one or a few blooms to find it, but it is worth it -

Here's the link:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.337&tab=36&qn=5&qc=0

Rosette Delizy:

It used to be said (by people who'd never seen one like Jackie's) that 'Rosette Delizy' was a "compact" Tea Rose. In fact, 7-ft isn't at all out of line.

R.D. has her best color in cool weather -- she can be very pastel in hot weather.

In many ways, she's not a "typical" Tea Rose -- she's a very late Tea -- 1922 -- and the Nabonnands were doing some innovative breeding.

'Archduke Charles' IS a China, rather than a Tea -- though he does make you think Tea. Its habit is quite upright, and not as "twiggy" as most Chinas. The color changes tend to make you think of a "bush full of butterflies." Here's what he looks like in the Sacramento City Cemetery:

Rosette d'Lizzy has much more yellow in it. I love both.

Yes. 'Archduke Charles' has NO yellow in it. It's color shift is from pale porcelain pink to dark blood red. To illustrate, this isn't 'Archduke Charles,' but rather "Orange Smith" which is like it, but has far fewer petals.

This illustrates the color progression you will see with 'Archduke Charles' -- though not the form, as AC has more petals:

How does Napoleon fit in? No one talks about that one much, and in my mind I always associate it with Archduke Charles, though I haven't grown either of them.

From what I've seen of it, it is quite different. I don't know if it's been tested -- I'm going from photos on HMF.

Here's "The China From Adina":

Would Bird of Paradise flowers go better with Rosette Delizy?

Wow, what wonderful photos! Jacqueline, your mature RD is amazing! And Ingrid, its neat to see the color variations possible for RD based on your pics! Thank you Jeri for the close-ups of AC; gosh it's tough to choose between these lovely roses. How long does it take for RD to reach that large size? Jeri does AC have blooms like that beautiful pink/red mix from a young age?

Here is a pic of my RD, this was taken in the fall so the color is more intense.

My RD got tall first - to 7/8 feet in about 2-3 years. Then it filled out more sideways.

Jackie

I've grown both, and as Malcolm said, Archduke Charles to my eye is indistinguishable from Old Blush (which I feel no warm climate garden should be without, simply for the historic value), but I've always thought of Rosette Delizy as a carefree, sassy little carnival in a bush. Just looking at her makes me happy.

Sheila, I do think that RD would be a much better match with Birds of Paradise in terms of color blending. I don't remember Birds of Paradise having any pink or red that would associate well with AC. Also RD has stiffer petals that would look more compatible with BoP.

A_Church I wonder if you have Old Blush and Archduke Charles? While DNA testing doesn't differentiate them, I see rather little resemblance in the garden? ADC is a taller, narrower bush, flowers are much more double, and the color change is very characteristic, much like Jeri's photo, especially in cool weather, where it can have a truly red outer ring of petals and still be nearly pure white in the center. For me, Old Blush never does anything like that.

As for Napoleon -- We first identified this as 'Old Blush' and thought we just had a very vigorous plant. But Joyce Demits pointed out the differences. Napoleon is VERY much like Old Blush, but is in general a heftier, fuller bush, with larger, better-shaped flowers with more petals, and on any given weather day, will have a somewhat deeper color (more toward purply pink than the true red that ADC can have). Also, Old Blush usually sets quite a few hips, whereas Napoleon almost never sets a hip. Here are some Napoleon photos:

Then for comparison in our gardens, Old Blush (always somewhat paler with somewhat fewer petals than Napoleon; no true red):

Archduke Charles (on a cool day -- more petals than either of the above, and true red, not purple-red):

And a nice coloration of Rosette Delizy as we see it here in winter:

Malcolm,

It's been a few years since I had AC. I do recall the flowers being a bit larger than OB, but otherwise so similar that I couldn't justify the room to grow both. And I admit to a fondness for OB simply because it was the first old rose I grew, not to mention its historical significance. My current OB plants were cuttings I rustled from an abandoned house in my neighborhood. Luckily I was able to take several cuttings before they bulldozed the house and the rose for rebuilding. I wanted to cry--that rose was huge. The base was like a tree trunk and it was a good 12 feet tall and around. Must've been there for years, pumping out the blooms despite neglect.

Oddly, I've grown both OB and Cl. OB (which for me was always once blooming) and I found the flowers on Cl OB to more closely resemble the size of those on AC. Maybe it's because it bloomed in the spring when it was cooler, I can't say. It's odd that the climbing version is once-blooming, much like that of SDLM. I never had problems with balling on Cl SDLM, whereas the bush version balled badly in spring here. Still wouldn't be without her, though.

Oh, I agree with Malcolm -- There's really no similarity between Archduke Charles and Old Blush. Way, WAY different!

Here is an old Archduke Charles, in a NoCal Cemetery:

And one that is a "Legacy Plant" in the Sacramento Old City Cemetery:

The blooms are always larger. The petals have more substance, and are differently-arranged. And the color . . . Well, there's no getting around that contrast of porcelain pink and deep blood red -- sort of the ultimate expression of the "fade to dark" characteristic.

I have both AC and RD I got them as small band type plants last spring. The RD has taken off much faster than the AC but they are both healthy and have bloomed a little. I just put RD in the ground so its really growing fast now. I think it will probably do better in my humid hot climate than AC but like I said, the AC is perfectly healthy, just growing slower.

OK - you guys have done it again! I have now got a full sun front garden, since we had to take down our 80 ft tall, 80 year old scarlet oak tree. So, I have been thinking about more roses....

I have always wanted Old Blush, but with more petals, and more interesting color variation, AC looks like I will have to get it. Chinas LOVE our climate, and it seems perfect for our now 100% sunny, 100% of the time front garden.

My tea & china roses which were already in that garden tended to go dormant under the dense summer shade of the tree, after blooming from Jan through May. They are all just sitting there now, saying "..what happened..!!?". However, I am sure they will re-adjust, and by next Spring will get bigger and bloom more.

Jackie

What a great discussion on history and genetically related varieties! Also a very good point about color harmony in the yard.

Oops, I should clarify that I would remove the birds of paradise to put in the rose bush. However I do agree that the use of RD's yellow and pink/red flowers would blend with the bright red/pink pelargoniums that are planted adjacent to the area and the yellow hemerocallis that line the other side of the lawn. Sigh, I wish there were more space because I really like AC's coloring...

Could I ask if I purchase a band or 1 gal size plant of AC/RD how long could I keep them in a large pot (15-20 gal) before planting in the ground?

It will take some effort to remove the BoP. And there maybe another space in the yard that potentially could accommodate the other of the two roses....risky business!

Depends upon your conditions, I guess. I can keep moving things up to larger pots, for a good year. But in other places, I know they probably grow more quickly.
My conditions are a little rough ... not very manicured. So I really prefer plants to get some size, before going into the ground. If they're really filling out a 5-G, I'm happy.

You can keep a plant like these in a 20G pot for a number of years. However, if you do such a thing and then you want to plant in the ground you will have trouble with a. size of hole and rootball b. the plant being quite root bound. So a bit of root pruning will be in order. Most any rose can be kept in a 5-6G pot for a year in my climate which is what I usually do before planting them.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and recommendations! I will have to post pics of first flowers in 1-2 years!

Yes. A.C. has the same color as a small plant. But of course, it is SMALLER!

Note Malcolm's comment. In HOT weather, the color of R.D. can be very pastel.

Thanks so much Dr. Manners for the DNA info. Old Blush, Archduke Charles, and Napoleon all the same! Previously I'd been told that Old Blush and Napoleon were the same.

At the time I was skeptical since my nose told me otherwise but now I am skeptical in the opposite direction.

Now I have suspicions that many of my different roses are really almost exactly the same.

I use to have a hedge of Old Blush right near the road in front of my house. There were always blooms.

But I'd choose Archduke Charles (for the color variation) and Napoleon (for the stronger scent and better-looking bush) this time.

Also--I'm drooling, literally, because of all the pics.