The only thing in recent memory that I can recall correcting someone about was shitake mushrooms. He thought it was pronounced "shit-take" and was about to order it at a restaurant

I hope that I actually spared him embarrassment instead of caused it.

There is an Italian roast pork dish called porchetta and on the cooking shows etc., the ch is pronounced as in chicken. I make a version of this which is very popular on Minnesota's Iron Range (where I grew up) - I use the Range spicing, cooking technique and method of serving. On the Range, this dish is called porketta. Yes, that's how it's spelled, and the k is very much pronounced as such. No fancy ch stuff. Rangers would think you either ignorant or suffering from some sort of speech impediment if you pronounced it with a ch. A friend of mine out here on the east coast insists on calling my version porchetta. I haven't corrected her, but continue to call it porketta. What I make is, afterall, porketta. Any origins as porchetta have been long adapted and forgotten during many cold Minnesota winters.

I've never seen porchetta pronounced like chicken "ch". It's always a "K" sound.

Porketta sounds like a delicious version. I've never heard of it before!

http://www.americastestkitchenfeed.com/field-notes/2012/03/notes-from-hibbing-minnesota-the-quest-for-porketta/

As for grammar, I seldom correct anyone, unless it is something of the Eats, Shoots, and Leaves variety, where the meaning is unclear - and then I'll simply ask, "Do you mean such and such?" very politely, for my clarification, not as a correction.

The last time I corrected an adult for grammar where the meaning was pretty clear to begin with -- I was all of about seven or eight, and we'd just gotten hammered into us in school (in NYC) how horridly incorrect saying "ain't" was. So... going with the family down to my grandparents in Kentucky, and hearing my rurally-raised Grandmother use the word... well, let's just say my Mother was very displeased with me! (Lesson absorbed by younger self: Like cigarettes and coffee, correcting adults is off-limits for children...)

Artemis, "tumeric" is a standard pronunciation, though not spelling, and when the "r" is pronounced, it's soft, rather than a big errrr, so you were right all along.

A lot of times, nowadays, people go by an old spelling that reflects the roots of the word, but not how it's actually said, and go with what's written rather than the accepted oral pronunciation. We say wahk and tahk, not wallk and tallk because they're taught in school, but young people are changing offen to off-ten (often),and kill to killn (kiln).

However you say it, different regions and different culture groups have different ways of saying things, and trying to hold onto a "right" way is counter-productive. When we rag on the celebrity chefs for saying things the way they're pronounced in the languages they come from, because it really can get annoying, we forget that part of their job is to educate and by pronouncing it in Italian or Japanese or Zulu, they're giving us a lot of clues about the culture that produced it.

Where I draw the line is when it becomes unintelligible. In the U.S. gouda is pronounced goo-duh. People who have been to the Netherlands have a tendency to show off and say how-duh. The real Dutch pronunciation, however, is with a voiced velar fricative, I believe, which is the sound before the T, written as gh, when you hear the Scotsman say, "The light in the night." It's like the ch in Bach, but with your vocal chords vibrating. Ghow-dah. If you don't say it in American, however, no one's going to know what you're talking about.

I only correct people if I care even a little about them not making fools of them selves...like my friend who persists in rhyming "quich" with "wish"....and saying Brushetta and porchetta.
So how do you pronounce...not spell, but pronounce...that Italian rolled meat thing often found in Sunday gravy?...You know the one that begins with "bra..."
And how about that cheese you use in the center of lasagna?
I will think you a bit of an idiot of you say "ri-cah-tah".

Oops, Lindac -- how does one properly pronounce that cheese? Honestly want to know!!

Regards Sunday gravy -- I never knew there was a gravy for Sundays! So I have no idea that it would have Italian rolled meat in it?? (We never had Italian rolled meat in any of our gravies.... and so the only word I can think of at the moment that begins with "bra" is, well, "bra"... Or, "brassica"...) Not raised Italian, here.

Braciole.

I will think you a bit of an idiot of you say "ri-cah-tah".

"rigawt", of course.

Thanks, Mimi. Rigawt it is from now on, even if everyone else around me seems to be saying Ri-cah-tah.

Braciole. Never heard of it until now!

This may be because I avoid a cuisine that wants one to eat two high-glycemic items in one meal -- bread AND pasta. Grin.

Pillog -- fascinating about Gouda!! And the multiple pronunciations of turmeric being acceptable, although now pronouncing that R is helpful for my spelling!

artemis_ma

Thanks, Mimi. Rigawt it is from now on, even if everyone else around me seems to be saying Ri-cah-tah.

******

I was just being facetious! "Rigawt" is how many Italian-Americans pronounce it, especially from New Jersey ;-)

I've always called it "ri-cah-tah" and that probably won't change ever.

I don't mean to be a pedant. Italian is my first language. My family are from Turin and Parma, so I feel confident mentioning it is ri-cotta (cooked twice.) The word for the cheese rhymes with more or less with 'oughta' as in a ought to not correct people :-)

Actually I wrote too fast- it's not cooked twice like biscotti- but rather re-cooked. I know how to make homemade ricotta Ina Garten's way- and fail to see the twice issue- but maybe the hard ricotta- salata?

Is it because you can make it from whey after you make another cheese first?

Interesting about the pronunciation! I've always heard (and used) ree-COAT-tuh.

In the NY area, ricotta is often pronounced ri-cawth - with the 'c' having a slightly 'g'-ish sound, and the 'th' often being heard instead of the swallowed 'a' that's really there (say it with the 'a', but close your mouth, or end your breath before the 'a' is finished. However, sometimes, often depending on the next word being spoken, the ending is just heard as a hard 't'.) Mozzarella is mutz-a-dell (sometimes mutz-a-dell-a, and always holding on to that 'L' sound at the end slightly longer and melodically than anyone except an Italian is comfortable with.) Manicotti is man-i-cawth (again, with the c=g, and the 'th' - 'a' thing not always being heard.) Braciole is pronounced bra-zhul, and to circle back around to ricotta, it was always pronounced slightly different in our Italian household. Because of how it's made, Great Grandma (and thus the entire family,) unless someone who wasn't Italian was visiting and had no idea what we were asking them to pass down the table, always just called it 'pot cheese'. Visitors were completely dumbfounded when we would ask them to pass the 'gravy' and pot cheese at Sunday dinner.

Then there's lasanzg, and don't even ask about gabagool.

It's always a bit funny to me when I forget where I am and ask for these items at delis and restaurants. Inevitably, the person just stares at me blankly lol. And yes, because these words are so ingrained and the dissonance is so stark - and I have too silly a sense of humor (at least I make myself laugh) - I have corrected people outside the 'greater' NY area who would then look at me quite oddly and think..."Whatever. What a dweeb."

The stuff in the middle of lasagna? That would be cottage cheese, LOL.

I have made braciole, and the Italian family Elery worked for taught him that it was "bra zhol" or something similar.

As for ricotta, he pronounces it as Abby does, rhyming with "oughta".

I also think that many pronunciations are regional, much like they are here in the US, and so there could be more than one correct pronunciation. If I try to correct someone, we just might both be right!

Annie

When we rag on the celebrity chefs for saying things the way they're
pronounced in the languages they come from, because it really can get
annoying, we forget that part of their job is to educate and by
pronouncing it in Italian or Japanese or Zulu, they're giving us a lot
of clues about the culture that produced it.

I completely agree. In my example where the chef continually said sope it was obvious she'd just learned it for her episode. If I had to guess, I'd say she was trying her darndest to be respectful of the culture from where she'd learned the correct pronunciation. A good thing! But to hear her say it so much, it seemed like she was trying to pound it into her head :) I think that's the line that gets crossed-how often the chef says it, and why they're saying it.

rgreen, we must know some of the same people...;-)
I am a a blond blue eyed WASP who grew up in Tony Soprano's neighborhood and I also know how to pronounce and make a tsimmis, a cholent, matzoa brie and hamaneshen.
And I'll have some gabagool on that platter with the tomatoes and olives.

As it happens at Cost Co last night the couple in line ahead of me had a box of "macaroons" in three flavors. I had never seen these before and the woman said she hadn't seen them at this store before.

Now I know why they looked liked iced sandwich cookies instead of globs of coconut.

A botanically trained friend is given to "correcting" pronunciation of plant names with a foreign language origin. While on the one hand I am perhaps more interested in and sympathetic to this than many it is also true that as a practical matter we in English speaking countries simply can't all know and master native pronunciations of every foreign language term we are using. When a woman of Dutch origin I worked with didn't like my pronunciation of their word for almond cookies, then demonstrated the correct - and very guttural - one there was no way I was going to be able to perform it, let alone adopt it and use it among English speaking people.

The subject came up because - thinking it was something she might relate to - I was talking about trying the almond cookies at a local Dutch bakery. Before she told me my pronunciation was inadequate she informed me that her husband thought that particular shop's almond cookies were "disgusting".

I thought it was funny that anyone would think that what was kind of a lowbrow food in the first place could be so offensive. Like saying a certain brand of hamburger patty had an "inelegant bouquet" when cooking.

Rob, I know exactly what you mean! Very different from Giada putting on her Italian. :) Considering that sope is sope in American as well as Spanish, there's no need to add a bad foreign accent to it. :) Just say so-pay. :) My friend has travelled a lot in South America, but he never learned any kind of accent either in Spanish class or from living in Southern California, and I cringe when he tries to say something the way it's said in Argentina (where the accent is nearly impenetrable to my Mexican trained ear). Although a good trick for getting around in France is to try it in American accent first, then try the bad French accent. They'll love you for trying, while laughing at you for being a rube and correcting you. :)

Embothrium, funny story. :) I like the Dutch almond spice cookies, if those are the ones you mean. I suppose they are plebian, but so are many good things to eat. The story goes that the great Escoffier himself (I think it was Escoffier--I'm bad at names, and the story may be apocryphal anyway) noticed the aroma of what his housekeeper was making for her own dinner--a peasant bean stew. He insisted on trying it even though it was far below his social rank. It was so good that he elevated the cassoulet to fine dining.

Here's my great contribution: You know I'm Greek. After years of trying to be true to my heritage (or more likely showing off) when ordering at Greek restaurants, I finally gave up when it came to gyros. Yes, I know the correct, authentic pronunciation is "yee-ros" (with a long O sound). But waiters/waitresses couldn't understand me. So now I order plain, old Americanized gi-ros (with a long I sound and long O sound). Everyone knows what I'm trying to order -- no confusion any longer.

Years ago Jimmy Smits was the guest host on SNL. A skit involved the entire cast sitting around a table going over the jokes for that show. Someone came to get their lunch orders for a nearby Mexican restaurant. All the cast members made a big deal of rolling their r's and using authentic pronunciations. When it was Jimmy Smits turn, he order a burrito. No rolled r. The person taking down the orders asked him to repeat himself a couple of times. And the other cast members kept giving him strange disapproving looks. Finally he got the point and order a burrrrrrito with an exaggerated rolled r. Everyone smiled and nodded approval.

In the past, one of my friends used a word incorrectly, as in this sentence: I guess they expected her to cow town to them.

Maybe the reference was Cowtown New Jersey....

Emerogork, I'm sure my friend wasn't referencing Cowtown, NJ--it was all in the context, y'know! :0)

I'll be sure to kowtow at the roadside market in Cowtown next time I pass through ;-)

I don't know where I got this from ('I've lived in a variety of places), and it's not a food word, but I try my best to not say "warsh" or "Warshington DC". I know it's wrong, but I never can stop myself until that syllable with the unwanted R is out!

Oh, bad joke -- I don't know if this will transcribe from verbal to print but hey...

What did the pirate say on his 80th birthday?

"Arrrr..m..atey!"

Oh, Shambo, the tears are running down my cheeks. Come to Southern California, and be your own Greek self asking for gyros or the Mexican waiters won't know what you're ordering like in the skit! The exception to the just say it in American. :) (The trilled r, spelt rr, is a separate letter in Spanish, however. Pero means "but" whereas perro means "dog".)

Keeping in mind the amount of aerospace here, the joke is a guy is reading the menu board at an International food court to his companion. He says, "jai-rose". The little kid next to him asks, "Mister, do you make rockets?"

Cowtown Nebraska, Arizona, Texas, or maybe Cow Town (1950) movie with Gene Autry and Gail Davis?

My mother and I used to correct each other freely all the time. W would be in a restaurant and heard someone at a nearby table that needed correction. Keeping the conversation between the two of us we would discuss the correction just loud enough to be heard. We oft wondered how often we simply said what others were thinking.

We enjoyed terms such as "decimated" which means to divide by 10, not totally destroy and "evacuate" which means to remove the contents of. "They evacuated everyone while the building burned." I figure they should evacuate the building before giving the enemas.

I don't consider speaking a foreign word for an dish/ingredient in its original pronunciation to be an accent, it's just the word. It can be exaggerated of course, to some comical degrees. And, there are even some regional accent differences in the way the original word is pronounced. The whole scown/scun is all about variants of the English language.

In the right company, correcting the misuse of a word that means two different things (far removed branches of the same tree), like macaroon/macaron, is probably not an issue. IMHO, you do, however, become the risk of sounding like "Dr. Sheldon Cooper" to your non food-obsessed friends/family. As in "You know, the macaroon was popularized by Jewish bakers ...." :)

In general, I avoid correcting grammar or pronunciation of regular words or don't mind the use of words that have been co-opted into American english variants (like "crape" or "SUE she")

And further up the string, is "porchetta" pronounced "porkettah" in Italian?

Now regarding macrons, it's seems like they've become quite trendy at the top bakeries (like Miette in SF) but the price just ruffles my feathers. Really, $2-3+? I'll be making my own. I did buy some at Laduree last week, however ;)

Artemis, I can identify. Wash typically comes out warsh unless I really concentrate. Same with doll ... it comes out dowel. Are you from the Midwest by any chance?

After 2+ glasses of wine, "water" becomes "wooder" again.

;-D

Plllog, I grew up in LA. Most of my family is still there. I think when it comes to Greek restaurants, the owners understand me, but the wait staff doesn't. I actually got the wrong dish once because the "American" waitress was confused by my authentic pronunciation. I think that's when I decided to stop trying. This is a very revealing thread. I'm having a lot of fun reading it.

I recall going to an off street Chinese restaurant in China Town NYC. I had asked what was in the dish I was about to order. In a strong accent she said something like "Mice". We chuckled and figured she was saying "Rice".

When the meal was served, I was concerned that there was no rice in the dish. It had small bits of meat and corn, peas, etc. We then realized that she said Maize. Well, we hope it was...

"Wooder" is hilarious, and I'm still laughing at Rockwilder!!!!

I enjoyed reading this article about "decimate"

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/09/does-decimate-mean-destroy-one-tenth/

Shambo, I'm flabbergasted! I believe and understand you, but since my youthful first sight of a Gyros! sign, I've been told that it's yee-rohs and never hear it said any other way except on TV (and in the rocket joke). I guess I don't get around enough.

Rules about stative verbs are changing, particulary for verbs which can be both dynamic and stative, depending on the use. Note that Google has an "I'm feeling lucky" button.

I do not say it out loud. But I am screaming it in my head. There is no way you can correct someone else's grammar and have them appreciate it. I insisted that my children speak properly and chide my husband now and then, but that is it. My pet peeve is at work when someone asks for a report to be distributed "Between" 12 of us. In my head I am screaming, AMONG 12 people. It's so Sheldon Cooper.

Lars, problem is not that people say, "I'm feeling lucky". They say "I'm wanting to feel lucky." Which is worse?

I'm not really bothered by the unconventional use of the progressive/continuous tense - I consider it poetic license of a sort, and so I am pretty liberal with that, having written a lot of poetry myself. I think the one group of stative verbs that should not be used as dynamic are the ones in the "possession" category. I would never say "I am belonging to a group" when I mean that "I belong to a group," but in most other cases of stative verbs, I can see exceptions for wanting to emphasize something being transitory, and therefore dynamic.

As for food terms, I think it is not reasonable to expect everyone to pronounce foreign food terms correctly, although it would be nice. It bothers me to hear someone pronounce "Parmesan" as if it were a French word, but this is very common and will not change. Even Giada, who should know better, does this.

Here's a video on how to pronounce Italian food terms

I don't mind people wrongly pronouncing a word, just their mis-use such as talking about an egg, bacon and cheese tart and calling it a Quiche Lorraine when it isn't.

I have to mind about verbs as I'm a teacher. Just because Google does something doesn't make it right or desirable. I do think that we should be trying to raise the bar when it comes to grammar, not dumbing down all the time but that's just my opinion.

No, I would never... I enjoy talking with people and I think those corrections put a damper on communication and shows you are not really listening to what the other person is actually saying.

On the other hand, I find that a gross mispronunciation or a really "creative" grammar error confounds me so much that I don't hear anything beyond that error.

The video above explains what my Italian boss always taught me about pronouncing Italian foods. In Italian ch is pronounced "k" so chianti is kee an tee, not chee an tee. Bruschetta is brroo sket ta not brroo shet ta.

I remember when I taught my Mom the french way to pronounce lingerie...Lahn-jeh-RHEE instead of lawn-jer-ay. She tried using it and no one knew what she was talking about.

Daughter of an English major here - long used to being corrected on my grammar & vocabulary! @ the same time, I am often reminded of my language arts teachers telling us that spoken & written language should not be conflated; spoken language is generally more informal & idiosyncratic.

I like to use that on my mom when she gets too pedantic = J

I understand that the are not the same but I could never define the difference between "spoken & written language". Is there an easy definition?

Spoken language is just the way you talk. It's not merely fully formed sentences, and certainly not an agglomeration of statements, as the philosophers would have it. There are partial sentences, independent phrases, exclamations, interjections, figures of speech, and all the messy, yummy goodness that a full basket of language can give.

Written language is something invented by teachers, editors and other pedants and is meant to conform to a certain set of standards--and those standards vary by culture, language, and culture groups within a language. There's usually a purpose to written language, such as conveying facts, telling a story, or proving an argument.

In spoken language, only about 10% of meaning comes from the actual words. The rest comes from intonation, gesture and body language, facial expressions, etc. Written language is designed to be intelligible from the words alone. In USA English we value complete sentences, and organized paragraphs. We also value linear organization from beginning to end. I don't have personal knowledge of this, but I was taught that in Arabic, linear organization is considered gauche and unsophisticated, and that they kind of circle around the point, unwrapping it like peeling the layers off an onion, whereas we state the point at the top and work our way down to the details to back it up with.

In fiction, memoir, letters, etc., we allow a lot more leeway for using some of the characteristics of spoken language in writing. This is especially true following the literary innovations that started in the early 20th C.

Online language tends to be more like spoken language than traditional written language. We use punctuation, abbreviations and emoticons/emojis to fill in for the intonation and facial expression we lack.

I'm not sure that this is "easy", but I hope it at least is clear. :)

Spoken words = talking. Talking is common in all cultures.

Written words = a way to record events and feelings and meanings, and a way to communicate deficiencies in spoken language, Not all cultures have written words. Written words can be abstract symbols in some cultures (English, French) or can be pictorial in others (Chinese).

When spoken words and written words can't communicate fully, we created poetry. When spoken words, written words, and poetry are still lacking, we created music and songs.

The above is what my simple mind understands.

dcarch

Good, but music came long long before written. There are specific brain structures for that. There are none for reading, which uses a variety of different structures, that are there to do other tasks, together. Song and poetry are also an ancient part of the oral tradition.