Sorry Melissa, its the other way around. It is the influx of immigrants (illegal and legal) that drives down wages. And that is why big business wants it, to spend less on labor. It's simple supply and demand, more workers, lower wages. And yes, the problem is that there are too many unskilled workers competing for the same jobs. Those that are hurt the most are those citizens or recent immigrants who have these jobs and are replaced. And also the cost of the immigrants in healthcare and other things, which is not replaced by the value of their work or taxes. Not making a judgement, just stating the economic facts.

Melissa describes very nicely the principle of socialism and Buford describes the rules of capitalism. Neither system seems to work perfectly.

Never mentioned in either the socialist or capitalist take on the situation, because it is "taboo", is the fact that the human population has more than doubled in the past four decades, and even more than that in the countries that are most economically underdeveloped and short of basic resources (water, in particular) and the people most desperate. I think that this, even more than ill-advised wars (and to some degree, the real reason for wars), is driving the immigrant crises and that if the people of wealthy, developed countries think they are going to be able to sit complacently behind their borders indefinitely, they are going to be surprised. Most people prefer to stay where they are, and don't migrate, except in desperate circumstances, as is happening now.

So, whether a given economy suffers because of low wages or immigrants is sort of moot, looking at the bigger picture.

Marlorena: Germany's welfare system also provides housing and stipends to it's unemployed citizens. In poor areas of the country, it is mostly young people in Germany that can't find work and are supported by welfare 100%. Older workers don't quit before retirement, and the strong unions protect the incompetent = not enough jobs to go around. Since idle hands are the devil's playground, this has led to civil unrest.

I wholeheartedly support strong unions. However, there should also be a limit on protecting bad workers. I've worked in situations where there was a very weak Union or no collective bargaining at all, and workers were being exploited. One American company I worked for wouldn't give the customer service reps full time hours to avoid providing health insurance, and would replace the whole department every four or five months to avoid other state & federal employment regulations.

While Germany's top notch health care system isn't free, it's close enough. When I was studying there at University I elected to get my four wisdom teeth removed. The oral surgeon and five days of hospital after care cost me about USD$80 out of pocket. That's unheard of in the USA -- in 1996 it probably would have cost me over USD$5,000 because of the hospital stay.

FYI, Cuba provides excellent free health care to its entire population from local doctors trained by premier American institutions.

I've mentioned population growth as being a huge problem here and on other forums, and it's true that I'm one of the very few who do. Yet, it's a tremendous hindrance to prosperity, increases global warming and the decrease of the whole pyramid of wildlife in many areas, including the oceans of the world. It's really stupid and short-sighted, and I understand that the UN has forbidden mention of this problem, and giving aid to poor countries does not or cannot include birth control or abortions. Any gains, especially in poorer and more populated countries, are almost immediately offset by the rise in population. It's as clear as the nose on one's face and we are indeed very backward and unintelligent not to allow this to be tackled in every country. Local religions and customs also stand in the way, of course, but if we don't find a way that factor alone will sooner or later destroy the earth as we know it.

What Ingrid said; I wholeheartedly agree.

Poor countries don't have a monopoly on over-breeding. Look at the irresponsibly huge family sizes of devout Mormons, Catholics, and other fundamentalists in the USA.

Well, it's more the total fertility rate (TFR) of a country that significantly affects population growth rather than the propensity for some individuals or groups to have large families. Here are estimates of TFR for in 2015, to compare (note that the U.S. is actually below its replacement fertility rate, at 1.87, despite the Duggars....).

Recent analyses I've seen have indicated that the education of women may be the single biggest factor in lowering family size (even in countries with high TFRs, the most educated women have the smallest families), though exactly why that is so is not clear. There may be the key. But, in any case, getting populations to levels where all people can have enough resources and peace to live decent lives, not lives of desperation at the edge of survival, seems critical to me for the future.

If one asks all but six (Britain is one of the six) of the current 27+1 members of the EU the fertility question you will get the answer that ageing demographics is a real and dilapidating problem. So as is often the case, the frame of reference matters.

Hans,

I didn't mention Greece or the greek problem, you did and I'm not prepared to go into that discussion in here because it will be ugly. Suffice to say is that one can blame the germans for leading the cοnstruction of an economically and politically unviable entity, the Eurozone, which serves only their short term interests and which can only be sustained by currency terrorism and thinly veiled economic dictatorship. All that shrouded under the most naive 'schwäbische Hausfrau' macroeconomics which again just covers for their self interests. If the US were constructed thusly they would still be in civil war.. Don't take my word for it, take any non-German (or Dutch) economist's view be that right, left or center, Keynesian or neo-liberal.

https://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/06/25/brexit-wont-shield-britain-from-the-horror-of-a-disintegrating-eu/#more-14335

Nik, forgive my ignorance but I don't understand your first paragraph, what does that mean?

Jane

It means that all but six of the EU countries are suffering a declining and ageing population.

I believe that Nik means that the birthrate of many of the EU countries is below replacement level: people are dying faster than they're being born, and the average age of the population is rising. This is definitely the case in Italy, where I live, which has one of the most elderly populations (I think) and lowest birthrates in the world. Immigrants in Italy tend to be younger and have more babies than the native Italians, which is helpful, though a lot of Italians prefer to ignore this positive side of immigration.

Cross post.

Yes, and that has severe economic implications as has EU internal emmigration from the stagnant countries to the ones which can provide jobs.. It is the economically active ages that emmigrate (and amongst them usually the better educated) rather than the pensioners.. It is a vicious circle especially as there are no systemic balances and offsets of the kind that exist in the US or other real unions.

Nik & Melissa, thank you, I understand now.

Jane

It's basically the opposite of what we see in places like India, Africa and Asia, where the population is booming but people are not necessarily dying at a young age. There is not enough food, water, employment, education or any of the other basic necessities of life to give everyone a good standard of living. With some of these regions getting ever hotter and dryer it may soon be a hell on earth for the people and animals of those regions. This is rather off-topic, though, so I'll leave it at that. The one common thread one does find in most countries, unfortunately, and the poorer the country usually the more there is of it, is unrelenting corruption that has been going on forever and that further depletes the resources of a country. I've read that corruption and government waste are one of the factors in Greece, and I apologize if I'm wrong, but I'm quite sure there is much more to it than that, and Angela Merkel's name has certainly been brought up in terms of making the problem much worse. No one seems to be truly innocent when it comes to politics and money.

Europe has seen a huge babyboom right after WW2. I am one of them. That generation is retired now bringing things and healthcare costs out of balance. If this is a problem, it is temporary, the balance will be naturally restored in one or two decades.

To me it seems obvious that the Greek view on European policy differs from the European view on Greece. It's all a matter of perspective. The same differences of opinion may apply to Britain and the other 27 nations too.

Hans,

The demographic problem is much wider and of much greater consequences than that and by discarding it as an issue with your baby boomer comments shows a lack of understanding of it. But this is not the place to give a lecture on economics 101.

Please do not insist on bringing the greek issue up and furthermore do not hide comfortably behind the belief that there is a unique 'greek view' of things.. On the first matter, as you can imagine, after all these years and as a late baby boomer who will never get a pension in whatever currency, I'm well versed to start a discussion on this very complex and sad issue, which you will not like and will not be befitting this forum and on the second I do not give a dime about your simplistic Das Bild influenced view on Greece of which we down here have had enough, thank you very much. I referred to european issues such as the euro and the opinions of many economists, you continue referring to Greece. I quote from the article linked to at the bottom, and which you will not believe I just read this morning, which is quite interesting whether Krugman is one's favorite economist or not. He certainly is not Greek.

'

It seems clear that
the European project – the whole effort to promote peace and growing
political union through economic integration – is in deep, deep trouble.
Brexit is probably just the beginning, as
populist/separatist/xenophobic movements gain influence across the
continent. Add to this the underlying weakness of the European economy,
which is a prime candidate for “secular stagnation” – persistent
low-grade depression driven by things like demographic decline that
deters investment. Lots of people are now very pessimistic about
Europe’s future, and I share their worries.

But those worries
wouldn’t have gone away even if Remain had won. The big mistakes were
the adoption of the euro without careful thought about how a single
currency would work without a unified government; the disastrous framing
of the euro crisis as a morality play brought on by irresponsible
southerners; the establishment of free labor mobility among culturally
diverse countries with very different income levels, without careful
thought about how that would work. Brexit is mainly a symptom of those
problems, and the loss of official credibility that came with them.
(That credibility loss is why the euro disaster played a role in Brexit
even though Britain itself had the good sense to stay out.)'

Krugman on Brexit

Coming back to the narrow subject, I strongly believe that a compromise will be reached. That compromise will keep Britain tightly linked with the economy of the EU. Whether it will be able to save Europe from itself is another matter.

Today's headlines speak for themselves:

Melissa,

'We live in interesting times. The exit doesn't affect me in any immediate way, so I can afford to watch and see what happens.'

True... if you invest and bank mainly outside Italy..

PS .. or if you're not taxed in Italy..

I think we are approaching the day when technology and robots will be able to provide the basics of food and housing. We need to work on what are people going to do with themselves when robots do most of the jobs. Maybe instead of people fighting over fewer jobs, we can pursue education, science or the arts. People can focus on what they love instead of worrying how they can survive. Right now, you need a long training or a long education to get a decent job in the U.S.. no one wants to pick crops all day or clean floors. People do that to survive. Technology is going to make it obsolete. We have to think about what we are going to do then. No one should waste their life feeling bad because a robot took their job. Let the robot do it and give that person something meaningful to do and not let them suffer with no work and no health-care and no place to live. I think we can do this.

I think we can respect nature, go forward with technology and find solutions for people. What I have enjoyed most about talking online with young people about Brexit is how they see themselves as global citizens looking to solve problems for everyone. The world is changing and it will be a hard transition unless we provide a meaningful experience for everyone.

Good news IMO for the Brits.. They were spared Boris after all..

Not my country, and I don't get a vote. My natural tendency is to separate, not unite. I'm one of the people who thinks the United States would be better off split up into several different regional nations, perhaps with a loose NAFTA-like confederation; and that Northern California has so little in common with Southern California that we ought to be two different states. Sometimes I think that a lot of the world's problems could be eased by splitting warring factions each into their own separate countries so they could simply leave each other alone. No doubt new and possibly worse problems would then emerge, but I don't know about those problems, and I am weary from worrying about the ones we have right now.

To add a little levity:

Anne, you just made my day. The statement of cat behavior is so true to make me chuckle, but the bemused "what are you looking at??" expression on the cat's face is just priceless in combination.

Cynthia

The cat is the best!

Well it looks like a 'remain' supporter will be the next UK PM after all... what is certain is that she will be female. Last time I was interested in British politics there was another lady in that position..

In other news from the UK, we read that 'Jeremy Corbyn attended a meeting of his local allotment association at height of plotting against him'

I'm not totally convinced Theresa May was a 'remain' supporter, although she eventually came out supposedly in favour, but I tended to think she was doing so in support of Cameron. She was very quiet during the referendum, and she seems fully intent on implementing Article 50, without question.

I had never heard of the other contender until recently.

Taking bets about who may be next.. Sweden, Denmark? I consider Hungary and especially Czech and Poland as outsiders but one never knows..

Nik, do you think there could be a new sort of union if more countries want to go? Something that allows trade and travel but addresses some of the complaints about the EU?

I have no idea really. I believe, as I said above, that sooner or later the EU will equal the Eurozone. The EUcrats and the eurozone trade surplus countries hoped this will happen with everybody joining in. Now it seems that will happen with the rest opting out of the EU completely.. The way it was constructed the Eurozone is the implosive nucleus... It causes the most tensions yet it is almost impossible for any country to leave it. But if one country leaves it the whole thing will probably collapse.

Where did this travel thing come from? The EU did not affect intra EU travel really apart between the countries that joined the Schengen agreement (which is already all but dead btw), which the UK didn't.

The EUcrats are right in that a complete barriers down trade union requires the ability for people to freely move and work wherever otherwise there are more economic tensions created between borders. But there are so many other shock absorbers missing or mis-implemented that the whole point is moot (and, as recently proven, counterproductive).

As for the next to leave, I wouldn't bank on any of those Nik mentioned, but Ireland has so many linkages with the UK, and often follows suit in so many ways. They initially rejected the Lisbon Treaty before amendments and I think it's right to say that they are one of those countries that feel the least European, very much putting their Irish identity first.

Ireland is in the Euroland. Big difference.

Feeling or not feeling european, whatever that means, is not the real issue anymore.

Throughout Europe, does patriotism or even the concept exist? ( because this is the Internet, I must communicate that there is nothing nefarious in this question... Just curiosity). I know in France, brotherhood equality and fraternity became a goal, but that was a long time ago....

In this country, taking the good with the bad, and over the course of 3 centuries, many people have considered themselves "patriots". Those who love one's country, but in a way that it doesn't preclude that country from positively working toward goals that benefit many other nations.

Recently in this country, I have clearly seen patriotism conflated with nationalism. They are not the same. I don't know if some of what it is occurring here is due to lack of education, dogmatic extreme political ideologies or just by bitter, angry, people.

My cousin and her family resided in Greece for 3 years. She absolutely loved the culture and being there. Unfortunately, I did not take her up on the opportunity for a long visit. Greece has a long and rich culture. I hope to visit a Greece, that is still a good semblance of Greece.

I support immigration, but it should be legal immigration, by people who can abide by the laws, become productive, and assimilate to a certain degree. Yes, there is a cost or things a country should...expect ... No ... DEMAND of immigrants, or stay where you are.

Many people also feel that elitist government leaders are out of touch with the lives of the masses, or they just don't care. Voting is one way that people send their message, loud and clearly...to those elitists calling the shots. The violence occurring now is sad and unfortunate.

Off topic a little bit, but since the U.S. has been mentioned, one thing I find just a little bit odd to my eyes, in this day and age, is the continuing celebration of what is known as 'Independence Day', July 4th. I find it odd as it's celebrating something that started around 1776, by Colonists of British descent going against the then British Empire. What relevance does this have seriously to today's population? I wonder how they teach this in schools to a class of say Hispanics, or African Americans?...

The Empire has long since vanished and now Britain is really just a small island community albeit with still some clout in the world and the 5th largest economy - hanging in there, but it does seem a wee bit peculiar that the U.S. - today's superpower - has to hark back to a time when the colonies were ruled by Empire Britain.

I would have thought that the people today, of all nationalities and races, would regard the rejoining of the Union in 1865 as more relevant, albeit perhaps some Southern people might find it objectionable, I wouldn't know, but a 'Union Day' to my mind, would have more meaning in today's world. In fact, I think it's something that affects all of us as it made the groundwork for what the 20th Century was about to become, when all of us in Europe and most of the world in fact, needed a powerful, rich and dominant America very much indeed... and not a fragmented one... we all have to be thankful of a United America...

As for not feeling European or whether it's an issue any more, then Nik maybe ask those who voted 'Leave'..?

I certainly feel pretty much European and I wish this kind of EU to be gone and never return. I think a Norwegian or a Swiss may feel quite European but they're not in the EU. I'm sure the Italians feel European but judging from the latest polls I'm sure they wouldn't mind the european union to disappear.. Many Germans think being European means being 'German', while I'm sure lots of people from Eastern Europe think being European means they are Catholic Christians with no particular love for people of other religions or Russians for that matter. So, what exactly does 'feeling European' mean? Feeling like the inheritors of the Carolingian Empire? The Holy Roman Empire (the 1st Reich)? Capetian France?

I've said it before in this thread. Many people(s) feel the 'european project' has failed them and alienated them. I wish there was time, will and guts to save it by changing its course. But I think there isn't. Will the EU disintegrate? I don't know. But it certainly isn't a 'union' I like to be part of. Because it isn't a Union..

In answer to your question, Marlorena, from what I see, the celebration isn't really about celebrating independence from Great Britain these days -- that's all water under the bridge, as the saying goes. The celebration mostly honors the general principles expressed at the beginning of the Declaration of Independence (which are so loved that many Americans mistakenly conflate these words with those of the Constitution):

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government....this goes on to enumerate the outrages committed by King George, which nobody really cares about anymore...

Many newspapers here print the Declaration in its entirety on July 4. The other thing, of course, is insane love in some parts of the populace for the firecrackers and fireworks and chaos associated with the Fourth....

You are right, though, that the Declaration doesn't say much about unity. That's the Constitution, which sadly doesn't have a day of celebration, but should, especially the Bill of Rights part.

Agreeing with all of what Catspa wrote, I would add, in addition to fireworks, there are water sports and other activities that people partake in, often with close friends and families. For others, it is a combination of the historical celebration and what they consider fun. I spent the 4th of July this year in Napa/Sonoma, Calif., and it was a full day event for the locals. There were parades in the morning, live entertainment and activities for all throughout the day, culminating with a professional fireworks show ( I was dining in Healdsburg at that point, and missed it.. by choice). The Declaration of Independence can be taken quite literally, and as you and Catspa noted, is not about unity... oh ... far from it. It is about people in this country no longer wanting to be a British Colony, for a variety of reasons.

Students here are required to complete government classes throughout their enrollment, and it is a required for graduation at our universities, although, I also agree with Catspa regarding our Constitution, and how "it does not have a day of celebration, but should". I see this document becoming more and more undervalued. People in Europe may point fingers at those from other countries when outcomes are not what they desired, in this country, we will only be able to blame ourselves for the issues, that could be on its way. 2016 has been and will continue to be a very politically significant year.

Marlorena - do not the English, at least, still celebrate Guy Fawkes Day? That was a LOT longer ago than 1776. Do the British not still revere the Magna Carta (even LONGER ago!).

The "Fourth of July" - which is how it is usually referred to here (similarly to Quatorze Juillet, or Cinco de Mayo), although some do use the alternative Independence Day, is a great holiday. Catspa is correct - it is a celebration of the Declaration of Independence and its universal values (some would say those were expressed in the Brexit vote).

Desertgarden is also correct - it is a wonderful holiday where we have picnics, barbeques, parades, family gatherings, and LOTS of fireworks! My DH and I went to a family party at the home of relatives who live way up a hill. Their town had a fireworks display, basically at the bottom of that hill. The really cool thing was, however, that in the distance on the horizon we could see 6 other municipal fireworks displays going on at the same time, in 6 different cities. Lots of little kids running around oohing and ahhing...,

We have a cabin up in a very rural (pop 3 people per acre) area in Northern CA. Last year we were up there at the largest city in that county (pop about 5,000 people). The Fourth of July parade was great - 100 year old fire trucks, school bands, trains of actual working mules who are used to haul supplies into remote areas of the National Forests, fancy horses, etc. etc. The essence of community - people come from small hamlets all over the county - the children and some adults dress up, the churches have "Ice cream socials" , there is a rodeo, and everyone has a great, non commercial, time.

What's not to like?

Jackie

Oh, a P.S. :The family gathering I went to consisted of 35 members (3 generations) of related families who, or whose parents or grand parents, immigrated to the US from Germany, Scotland, Italy, and Guatemala in the recent or not too distant past. Just an example of a typical American extended family. Recent immigrants appreciate this country, and in my experience love to celebrate the Fourth.

Jackie

Thanks for your replies to my post. I shall try to be brief [unsuccessful]..

catspa,

...regarding that quote from the D of I, I find it somewhat flawed. Now I know there's nothing worse than some foreigner whingeing about the internal arrangements of another country [Obama should've stayed at home], and I have no wish to offend, but the 2nd paragraph where it says ''all men are created equal'', I don't think applied to anyone other than white? I mean, black and red just didn't figure I think it's correct in saying, and arguably they haven't much ever since...

Secondly, although they appear to take the moral high ground, there are other underlying reasons for that Independence from Britain which I think it's reasonable to claim were likely true at the time, in that George Washington and other land speculators wanted to expand beyond the Appalachian/Allegheny mountains, which the British had declared Indian Country [King's Proclamation of 1763].. and individuals could not negotiate with Indians to cede their lands.

I know you know all this, you might not agree with it, but it does make that Declaration somewhat hypocritical to my ears and gives another reason why the restoration of the Union when Lee surrendered at Appomattox Virginia in 1865, as a more worthy cause to celebrate, but here again, if one values Independence so much, why weren't they allowed to secede? Similar pressures existed on the South - an oppressive Northern government trying to tell them what to do, and how to live their lives?... it seems Independence is only acceptable if money, power and social politics are considered unworthy of note... and not many places would conform to that..

Jackie, yes I can believe it's a great day out for many people to enjoy themselves, but as for our Guy Fawkes Day, well it's mainly for kids to enjoy, some organised bonfires, but it's a terrible hazard for wildlife, I'm totally and utterly against the whole thing - in some places they used to burn an effigy of The Pope instead - and mostly older folks here would probably say it's nothing but a nuisance and we're glad when it's all over - it has a habit of drifting on for weeks.

Magna Carta ? Most might have heard something of it, many wouldn't, and few would know anything about it, but at least we do not have a 'Columbus Day' which I understand is a holiday throughout the Americas, in most States of the U.S. and a day of celebration [?]. I can only question this.

I should declare here that I have had acquaintances from some Native American groups and have taken the time, trouble and expense to visit on their reservations, so I tend to sympathise with their views, and I'm pleased to see that in some States they have an alternative day recognised, and even in some parts of California that is now true - not San Francisco it seems.

I would find it a stretch to support Columbus Day in any shape or form.

I'm sorry, but to end on a brighter note, I still think that the American continent is the very best place in the world for a holiday, Pound/Dollar exchange rate notwithstanding..

Marlorena, the way I see it, the Declaration itself is a magnificent statement of ideals, though, as is the usual case when humans are involved, those who wrote it and the other founders can be judged to have fallen short of those ideals on many fronts (by modern standards, at least -- the world as a whole was a different place then -- women and non-whites considered, de facto, as inferiors to be freely exploited and treated poorly, world-wide, not just in the U.S.).

You might as well complain that the Hardy-Weinberg theory is hypocritical and doesn't stand up to scrutiny because gene pools do not stay at equilibrium. The real point of Hardy-Weinberg, though, was to serve as a neutral model that lays out the ideal state of heredity, given that its underlying assumptions are maintained. When Hardy-Weinberg is violated (as it always is!) and gene pools do change, at least one of the underlying assumptions has not held true. Since the underlying assumptions encompass the agents of evolutionary change, Hardy-Weinberg serves as a model for what no evolution looks like, not reality.

Similarly, the ideals of the Declaration have not been achieved, but they are no less admirable as an attempt to describe the ideal relationship between people and their government.

I share your sentiment about the horrible impact of fireworks and bonfires on local wildlife -- something that seems to never cross the minds of their devotees -- zero empathy, it would seem. There was an article about silent fireworks in the paper last week -- now there's an idea.

As for Columbus Day, I'm certainly not going to defend that and have no idea why it's a holiday here.

No taxation without representation? $$$. Emancipation Proclamation? $$$. Wars every generation? $$$. American "independence" has always been linked to the profit margin in one form or another. If the USA is the poster child for capitalism and a free market economy, by extension its core values are based on money. And in this country, money equals power. The moral high ground is a mythology to assuage the guilt of profiting from exploitation.

The victor writes the history books and Columbus Day is no exception. There's no mention of Polynesian, Chinese, or Viking pre-Colombian voyages to the Americas; therefore, celebrating Columbus Day conveniently undermines the land claims of all Native Americans and prior explorers.

The USA is not unique in indoctrinating its children with a biased and abridged form of historical propaganda. I shudder to think what type of hate mongering is taught in Chinese or Russian schools. All nations sacrifice historical accuracy in favor of an obedient populace. It's not right, but that's the reality of human avarice.

Viking pre-Columbian voyages IS referenced in the history books, Romogen. Students today are taught about the true contributions of Columbus, as well as the negative impact and brutality he inflicted upon Native Americans. Do we disregard Columbus' achievements because his other actions, many of which are a product of customs or morales of his time, are not consistent with that of today? Some people say yes, whereas others will answer no. Being an "indoctrinator" of first teenagers, and now young adults, many of us do our best to present multiple perspectives, allowing the learner "to take sides", if they must.

Economics is a reality, unless you live in a place where bartering with berries or some other tangible is still alive and well. Money or economic gain, is a major motivator relative to so much of what governments AND people decide. I would not dare question or judge the turmoil that could be in a person's heart, nor do I have knowledge regarding the totality of ALL of their actions. I can deem some specific actions clearly immoral or even heinous, but OVERALL, because the situation was complicated, and involved many men, I could not go this far... "The moral high ground is a mythology to assuage the guilt of profiting from exploitation". So, I disagree, but, to "each his own".

Native Americans, over time, and through dealings with those from Europe, learned to make land claims, eventually, as their cultures were NOT based upon the concept of land ownership. Land ownership was a foreign concept.

"Celebrating Columbus Day conveniently undermines the land claims of all Native Americans and prior explorers"... This comment is highly debatable, and in some respects, comparing apples to oranges.

My apologies for veering so far away from the original post topic.

Still way off topic, but I was recently disenchanted to learn that the Second Amendment, which I deeply wish were gone, had been couched in certain terms because certain Southern signers insisted on that wording because they demanded a militia to hunt down escaped slaves and otherwise keep in line the slave population in the South. If that doesn't leave a bitter taste......

As Ingrid has just mentioned above "Still way off topic", I have read every post, I am not very well versed to make a statement on all that has been said. The only imput I shall add at this stage is, I live in Australia, we have natives, known as Aborigines, natives to the best of research, but in years could have come from South Asia, it has taken the best part of 200 years to recognise them, give them some sort of equality, let them vote, Land rights, here is a link to a man that stood for what he believed in, Eddie Mabo,

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/stories/detail/mabo-native-title

Adding to what David has said, we celebrate Australia Day here, which marks the arrival of The First Fleet. Australia was called 'Terra Nullis', ie the Aborigines were very conveniently considered not to be human.

At least, in more recent years, there is recognition that they are human, and did 'own' the land before whites came. But I think this has no doubt been happening since the beginning of time.

Trish

Back to Brexit - I am so glad that the UK will have a new PM by tomorrow, instead of having to wait until September. Now they can get on with figuring out whatever comes next, which Cameron was understandably not willing to do himself. Just an accident of politics, but I think a great development.

Jackie

This development may turn out not to be as great as its looks like after the new PM appointed Boris Johnson to be the new Foreign Secretary.

The Daily Mirror today:

"Boris Johnson was branded a “liar” and “irresponsible” by his foreign counterparts yesterday.

French and German ministers both questioned the new Foreign Secretary’s fitness to represent the UK on the world stage.

Jean-Marc Ayrault, the French foreign minister, said the pro- Brexit Mr Johnson had “lied a lot” to the British people during the EU referendum campaign and was “unreliable.”

“I am not at all worried about Boris Johnson, but... during the campaign he lied a lot to the British people and now it is he who has his back against the wall,” Mr Ayrault told Europe 1 radio.

He added: “He has) his back against the wall to defend his country but also with his back against the wall the relationship with Europe should be clear.

“I need a partner with whom I can negotiate and who is clear, credible and reliable.”

Germany’s foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier also ditched diplomatic niceties to brand Mr Johnson an “irresponsible politician” who “bolted” after Brexit .

“People (in the UK) are experiencing a rude awakening after irresponsible politicians first lured the country into a Brexit to then, once the decision was made, bolt and not take responsibility,”Mr Steinmeier said.

“Instead they went to play cricket. To be honest, I find this outrageous but it’s not just bitter for Great Britain. It’s also bitter for the European Union.”

The personal attacks could make for an awkward first meeting when Mr Johnson joins EU foreign ministers and America’s Secretary of State for dinner on Sunday night ahead of a Brussels summit on Monday.

In the United States, the state department’s deputy spokesman Mark Toner failed to stifle a laugh when asked about the appointment.

Sweden’s former prime minister Carl Bildt tweeted the photo of Mr Johnson caught on a zip wire above the words: “I wish it was a joke, but I fear it isn’t. Exit upon exit.”

Labour’s Kevin Brennan said making Mr Johnson Foreign Secretary was “the strangest move since Caligula appointed his horse a senator.”

Mr Johnson has made a series of gaffes and has a history of insulting foreigners.

The UK’s representative on the world stage will now be the pro- Brexit former mayor of London who smeared Barack Obama for having a “part Kenyan” heritage and once referred to black people as “piccaninnies” with “watermelon smiles.”

Mr Johnson has also described Hillary Clinton as a “sadistic nurse in a mental hospital” and her rival for the US presidency Donald Trump as “stupefyingly ignorant.”

Last November he was forced to cut short a visit to Palestinian Authority territory after a Palestinian group took offence at his strong support for Israel.

Mr Johnson wrote about black people as “flag-waving piccaninnies” with “watermelon smiles” in a 2002 column for the Daily Telegraph.

He apologised six years later for the racial slurs which he used to mock Tony Blair ’s travels across the globe.

He wrote: “What a relief it must be for Blair to get out of England. It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies”.

In another passage he added: “They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird.”

Boris Johnson is a clown. He's also a cunning politician and a very clever and learned man. He has been an active journalist and most of the 'international insults' he has been accused of are snippets (often taken out of context) out of his journalistic writings. I'm pretty sure he will adapt to his new role perfectly. I'm not so sure if foreign acting politicians, members of government and heads of EU's formal or informal institutions commenting in such a way on a cabinet appointment in a foreign country exemplifies best practice in diplomacy.. It's really funny reading about bookseller Mr. Martin Schultz bashing BJ. If I were Brit I would be offended regardless of my opinion about BJ. But such is the situation in Europe these days. QED

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/boris-johnson-s-sensitivity-and-intelligence-are-underrated-1.2722016

Nik - that was my reaction exactly. I know very little of UK or EU politics, but the bashing of a cabinet appointment in one country by an "in office" politician or bureaucrat from an outside country (or group of countries) seems way beyond the pale.

Perhaps they are just enraged because his "cause" won an election when they were certain it would not, and then his political career was resurrected after they thought it was dead. Not a good advertisement for the EU, whatever the reason.

Jackie