tcull-- you're in Mass, and according to Mass pl;umbing codes, that copper pan is fine. I just did some work last week down on Cape Cod, and got a chance to talk to the plumber on the job. The way he explained it to me is that Mass follows outdated plumbing codes, basically to "cow-tow" to the unions. The reason I knew you were in the northeast is because we're the last place in the country that still allows for copper pans, and it's still wrong. It's not the copper, although that doesn't help (cement corrodes it, believe it or not). The reason is twofold. First, as I already mentioned, it doesn't allow for weepholes at the base of the drain, which means water that gets through the tile and grout will sit in the pan, until it's full, and then it'll start seeping down the drain. This gives mold, mildew, bacteria, etc. a perfect breeding ground to get a running start. Secondly, all copper pans I've ever seen are flat bottomed. The membrane, whether it be copper, rubber, CPE, ABS, whatever-- must be pitched at the same rate as the finished floor-- 1/4" per running foot from the furthest point of the drain, so that water that gets through the tile and grout will follow gravity to the weepholes, thereby allowing the whole assembly to dry out. I asked the plumber if he'd even heard of the Uniform Plumbing Code, and he said of course, but he was bound the the state code. Here's the Uniform Plumbing Code, though, as it pertains to sloping the membrane: Uniform Plumbing Code related to shower pan construction. "412.8 When the construction of on-site built-up shower receptors is permitted by the Administrative Authority, one of the following means shall be employed: (1) Shower receptors built directly on the ground: Shower receptors built directly on the ground shall be watertight and shall be constructed from approved type dense, non-absorbent and non-corrosive materials. Each such receptor shall be adequately reinforced, shall be provided with an approved flanged floor drain designed to make a watertight joint in the floor, and shall have smooth, impervious, and durable surfaces. (2) Shower receptors built above ground: When shower receptors are built above ground the sub-floor and rough side of walls to a height of not less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold shall be first lined with sheet plastic*, lead* or copper* or shall be lined with other durable and watertight materials. All lining materials shall be pitched one-quarter (1/4) inch per foot (20.9 mm/m) to weep holes in the subdrain of a smooth and solidly formed sub-base. All such lining materials shall extend upward on the rough jambs of the shower opening to a point no less than three (3) inches (76 mm) above the top of the finished dam or threshold and shall extend outward over the top of the rough threshold and be turned over and fastened on the outside face of both the rough threshold and the jambs. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may be built-up on the job site of not less than three (3) layers of standard grade fifteen (15) pound (6.8 kg) asphalt impregnated roofing felt. The bottom layer shall be fitted to the formed sub-base and each succeeding layer thoroughly hot mopped to that below. All corners shall be carefully fitted and shall be made strong and watertight by folding or lapping, and each corner shall be reinforced with suitable webbing hot-mopped in place. All folds, laps, and reinforcing webbing shall extend at least four (4) inches (102 mm) in all directions from the corner and all webbing shall be of approved type and mesh, producing a tensile strength of not less than fifty (50) psi (344.5 kPa) in either direction. Non-metallic shower sub-pans or linings may also consist of multi-layers of other approved equivalent materials suitably reinforced and carefully fitted in place on the job site as elsewhere required in this section. Linings shall be properly recessed and fastened to approved backing so as not to occupy the space required for the wall covering and shall not be nailed or perforated at any point which may be less than one (1) inch (25.4 mm) above the finished dam or threshold. An approved type sub-drain shall be installed with every shower sub-pan or lining. Each such sub-drain shall be of the type that sets flush with the sub-base and shall be equipped with a clamping ring or other device to make a tight connection between the lining and the drain. The sub-drain shall have weep holes into the waste line. The weep holes located in the subdrain clamping ring shall be protected from clogging. *Lead and copper sub-pans or linings shall be insulated from all conducting substances other than their connecting drain by fifteen (15) pound (6.8 kg) asphalt felt or its equivalent and no lead pan or liner shall be constructed of material weighing less than four (4) pounds per square foot (19.5 kg/m2). Copper pans or liners shall be at least No. 24 B & S Gauge (0.02 inches) (0.5 mm). Joints in lead pans or liners shall be burned. Joints in copper pans or liners shall be soldered or brazed. Plastic pans shall not be coated with asphalt based materials."

Perhaps I am missing something. We have the same type of guest bathroom, i.e. it is a 4 piece instead of a 2 piece power room. We don't like the tile around the shower enclosure either. In our situation, we are spending money and focus right now on a whole bunch of other energy conservation and renovation projects(per the link below). What did we do? We simply purchased a very nice shower curtain. If guest are sufficiently nosy to pull back what is obviously a shower curtain, they can do so at their own peril. :-) Re hardwood in the 'powder room', if I imagine w_anne as you described it, having the hardwood in the power room could look VERY nice depending on the color scheme. We have dard Jatoba Expresso in our kitchen / dining / family room which could look like in the powder room. If it is a lighter shade of brown then the hardwood might not look as nice. The other issue of course is how confident are you that the toilet leak has been fixed? (I had to bring it up). Lastly, how powerful is the fan in the bathroom? And is there a timer on the fan? You could (conjecture on my part) down the road have moisture caused issues with the hardwood it all of a sudden your lifestyle changes and the shower is used much more frequently. I hope that helps. Dan Here is a link that might be useful: Home Renovation and Energy Conservation Projects

Hi tmnca! One thing to think about with the Kohler shower pans is whether you may ever be using a shower stool with legs. If you were to get a longer shower bench, the Salient may cause problems because the oval really does have quite a bit of "curb" to it, as shown in Badgergal's photo of her son's shower. With a small shower stool set in the center of the shower, it is fine. If you ever need a longer shower stool, the Bellweather gives you a surface not impeded with the raised oval. I does, however, have a slant to the overall shower floor, so that must be taken into account. I have seen the Bellweather in person. It is a non-slip surface. It almost felt like a surface that would make me trip - catching my foot if I did not pick it up and step. Like if I dragged the foot, it would catch and I would trip and fall. It was a funny feeling to the bottom, and I wondered how it would feel when wet. It was NOT going to feel slippery, though! As for tile in a shower floor, the other reason to have small tiles (besides the grout lines giving traction), is that the small tiles allow the tile layer to better cope with the slant toward the drain. Larger tiles only allow you to slant in one direction. The smaller the tile, the better it is for following contours on a floor that is flowing to a drain from all directions.

I think the best thing I learned is to be incredibly explicit on the front end about your expectations--put it in writing and say it several times--and then to monitor the work carefully day-to-day. I was too trusting that they were doing what I'd asked in the early days. The lion's share of our issues were around the shower construction, and that one is tricky. I'd done a lot of research to understand how it was supposed to be built and waterproofed and had a very clear sense of what we wanted, but what the GC's worker ended up doing was problematic in a lot of ways. The GC was very insistent that it was "how they always do things" (and for all I know, it was--when I circled back to the friends who had recommended the GC, they shared that they had no idea how their bathrooms had been waterproofed). In our area, the shower pan, walls, and waterproofing are all inspected so when I explained how they had been built, the City issued a corrections notice and we worked with the GC and City until we settled on a fix that the City considered "good enough" (but that I am still not especially happy with). Hopefully most of the issues will just shorten the life of the shower rather than cause catastrophic failure, but even that is frustrating for a brand new bathroom. And I should have checked that the new walls were square! This didn't even cross my mind since it seems like a very basic expectation, so we didn't discover this until it was too late to do much about it. It's not too noticeable aesthetically--none of the existing walls are square in our old house so my husband jokes that at least the new ones match--but it caused unnecessary drama when the tiler showed up. All of that initial work was done by the same worker, and the GC was not on site for most of it, so I think just wasn't supervising well enough. Luckily we have been happy with the work of the other subs, but I am mentally prepared for the possibility that we will have to go back and redo the shower in the not-too-distant future. At least if that happens, I'll know what to do differently...we'll see!