i plan to put seeds that need cool soil in this october for bloom next spring, but will the rest be okay? in the past my annuals have died of old age before the frost came. and a lot of perennials have been long flagging by then.

It would help if you would list which types of seeds you're talking about because there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

okiedawn, i will list them as soon as possible. i just stopped for a second to check this post. do you think that in general, plants whose zones extend lower, farther south, than 7b would fare the best in delayed planting, since they are suited to hotter weather and germination times? you know, iT seems odd that i coudnt find this on the internet. ido know that some seeds need particular day lengths. maym=be i can find a chart on THAT

thank you for your interest, very much

Coby, I can relate as I've been busy with property renovation and haven't been able to garden much. I'm in 7b whose weather swings from 7a to another, maybe zone 6 I think it is.

If you have enough space, like me, you'll want to take advantage of microclimates. For example, if you have a tree line (not unlike a forest treeline), you can get away with the microclimates by placing some where they'll receive cooler temperatures from the trees but also only half a day's sun (during the hottest time of the year). These I would consciously keep watered to simulate spring environment.

Consequently, if you haven't a tree line a well established bush or fence might work just as well!

But the trouble lies in the varieties. You need to know the plants well before pulling such an adventure off. I only really knew a few of my plants and herbs well. I must look every species and variety up individually on the internet to see what they need/like. Then, I must factor in Oklahoma's potential weather hazards which fall to the extremes on both ends of the seasons.

All the rest: Just plant and give it a try! The worst outcome is they won't grow due to the heat. The 2nd worst is they won't flower (but are you wanting them to flower?). If you're planting basil, you don't need flowers or seed as it's easy to acquire seed from the store. If you're wanting coneflowers? Plant it, but don't expect flowering until next year and you will have it next spring! If you're planting corn, go for it but understand the bugs will probably try to eat it alive as they cycle through during the summer. You'll still get a few ears!

Starting this late can often mean your annuals won't have time to seed. HOWEVER, sometimes our summer is extended (no fall) and these have a chance to seed before it freezes.

As much as Oklahoma weather is varied it works to our advantage at times as much as it creates difficult growing seasons. So, just pick a spot, plant and see what happens. If it's something you need really badly in your garden, you'll be willing to transplant it to a different location to make it happier.

Then, next year, you'll have a very good idea what your garden spot can handle.

Gardening isn't something that requires perfection. I'm terrible with analysis paralysis. You don't even need to be accurate at all times. It only requires consistent attention from you and time. Plant it and see what happens. Those plants will do everything they can to survive.

bon

datura. orchid vine. high desert four oclocks. blackberry lily. roselle hibiscus. coral vine. valerian. motherwort. cypress vine. hyacinth bean. jewels of opar. brugmansia. rue. basil. self-heal. mugwort. prunella. butterfly pea. marigold. st john's wort. tithonia. portulaca.

balsam. common four o'clock. mayan mint. passion flower. anchusa. sweet annie. coral vine. burdock. dream root. catnip. high mallow. lilac sage. garden sage. bittersweet nightshade. arabian mint. uva ursi. alkanet. cleome. ashwagandha angelica. pellitory.

i have two packets of several thru some glitch in my mail order, probably something i did. and i have variations on the theme of some of the above. and everything else i will plant in the fall and winter/spring now, and pray for viability.

at walmart today i got some carrot seeds because i love the way the pollinators swarm them and i love the smell.

chickencoupe, thank you for discussing these issues with me. it's incredibly kind of you to spend so much time answering my post. this is my first garden on this property. i'm doing raised beds for the first time. so i'm just beside myself to get started.

we live in town, and the neighbor has a six-foot fence with a lot of large trees behind it. no shade for most of the plants -- i've got a stock tank in our front yard where the trees are (i've got class). that's for one of the bog gardens. i will take your advice and water like crazy on the new seeds.

as bad as missing the annuals show for this summer is to lose the year's growth for perennials. so i will give them all a try. i'm wanting to make a wildlife spot here, and also i'm all interested in medicinals for the first time.

i know that zinnias will germinate past midsummer. they are my favorite flower. that seems like karma right now.

my entry looks a little off to me, y'all. the plants i listed are the ones i'm going to try in june. i have others that i know can be planted in fall and after that.

i am tempted to put those fall perennials in now too and just let them set till the conditions suit them.

I planted marigold from seed last year, and had plenty of big blooming plants.

Many of those should sprout and grow and likely bloom, but some of them sprout better if they have cold stratification, and we're likely too warm for them to get that cold stratification naturally. Sometimes when I have something that I know for sure needs cold stratification before it will sprout, I just stick the seed packet into the fridge for a couple of weeks before I sow them, and that usually works.

I've linked Tom Clothier's Garden Walk and Talk database for you. Just click on the hand with the green thumb beside each entry to get that data. He has germination data for annuals, biennials, perennials and more, each listed in alphabetical order in their proper category. I don't know if Mr. Clothier still is around, but his database has wonderful info on it, generally from his own research. I use it often to get germination temperatures and statification data.

Tom Clothier's Garden Walk and Talk

You might want to check out Winter Sowing and use it next winter to get your seeds off to a great early start.

Wintersown Website

May is fairly late to be getting started with seeds, depending on what type of plants you're talking about. Obviously some of the most heat tolerant plants, like zinnias, moss rose and gomphrena will germinate and grow at practically any temperature, but a lot of biennials and perennials are more picky about germinating from a late sowing. Still, you have nothing to lose by trying other than the seeds themselves.

I have sown zinnias as late as July and had blooms before frost. The zinnias I have now have self-sown for about a decade so I don't even bother sowing seeds any more unless I want to add a specific color that doesn't seem to ressed as well as the rest.

okiedawn, what a great thing! thank you so much!

how did you find this great resource?

Coby, You're welcome. I don't remember how I find Tom Clothier's page (it was a LONG time ago) but my best guess is that someone here at Garden Web probably mentioned it or linked it, or maybe I found it while Googling to check soil temperature's relation to the germination rates of various veggies.

Whenever you're looking for a great resource on a given topic, always ask here. Usually somebody has saved exactly what you're looking for in their Bookmarks/Favorites and will link it for you.

Dawn

y'all, the seed experiment was a complete fiasco. got 1 four oclock and 4 as yet unidentified sprouts. i put in the clocks, jewel of opar, kiss me over the garden gate, mugwort, and catnip, and coral vines. i do seem to have some passiflora sprouting. i have to say that my bought plants have not batted well either. ive probably lost half of them. bought too late in the season, BRAND new garden, way too much humidity. also didnt help that i misinterpreted varying water tolerances for my wet beds. well, FALL IS COMING. and then i am gonna whip ass.

I'm sorry you've experienced so many failures. I know it's not much consolation, but the learning is invaluable.

I'm gathering milk jugs now for winter sowing. I've ALWAYS said I'm gonna winter sow, because when the time comes it's too many seeds for me to plant in spring and I always am too late on many things. This year I'm definitely going to winter sow!

i read about that technique after dawn gave me a website. however, im unclear on how this advantages you over throwing seeds out (over a decent texture of soil) sometime around thanksgiving. is it that the wintersown seeds germinate earlier? i can see how they would.

i kept a very ambitious garden for eight years, some 15 years ago, but i swan, its like being a noob again. i never tried to do things out of season before. but my mother died three months ago, and i fell out of cycle. also im trying to learn to wet garden and do herbs. its all very interesting, though my learning curve has been expensive.

I am very saddened to hear of your loss. :(

There's not a whole lot different from winter sowing and direct seeding your seeds over winter, but there are some differences that I can think of.

First, it depends on the seed! Many of your more tender varieties, like tomatoes, were not original designed by nature to thrive in areas with severely cold winters. Simply put, without protection, they might not survive the winter as seeds. Now, I must include something of my opinion: Seeds that have become naturalized in our area do have higher survival rates. If you were to grow one specific variety of tomato over a number of years continuing to keep that seed every year, I believe it would become more able to survive our winters. The key is viability. Just about any type of vegetable plant could be direct down in the fall to grow the following spring. This much is true, but you won't get as many viable sprouts unless you start early in the spring or start them in protect environments.

Ergo, winter sowing. Most people imagine seeds being planted in milk jugs containing a quality potting soil. Milk jugs are perfect because they protect the seed from extreme cold temperatures temperatures, biting harsh winter winds and even too much sun, just like a green house while taking in just enough rain water for its needs.

Then, in spring the young plant should be big enough with stronger roots and such to handle the open environment after it is planted and exposed to our harsh environment.

I don't really have a convenient way to start seeds indoors. I manage, but I haven't much space and it requires a tremendous amount of effort on my part to keep them happy. Thus, I really SHOULD just winter sow a bulk of my seedlings!

thank you for your condolences. you are a very kind person. my mother would have liked you. i know i do. i find that i miss mama more and more as time goes by. ill want to call and tell her something and then remember. sometimes i wake up because she is calling my name. i am her only child. her name was jauretta, rhyming with loretta.

you make a good point about plants in their natural environment. seems like the main disadvantages of winter sowing would have to do with how many, or few, appropriate containers you could rustle up, your yard space that might be limited -- these two factors would limit how many seedlings you could get -- and the "burden" of transplanting -- tho i do love to stick a plant in the ground. but im like you, i have no space in the house and so little light that i wonder if space is even relevant. and once i had a greenhouse, but you know, that really didnt hold many plants either. i drink a lot of milk and even more of that awful jug tea, so i think i will give the wintersowing a try.

by the way, 3 plants with which i always had spectacular success in throwing seeds about in mid fall were poppies, bachelor buttons, and larkspur, all cheap to buy and cheaper to save. one year i had a gallon of hulled poppy seeds. when those poppies blossomed they looked like a big party full of floating balloons

Coby, I am sorry for your loss.

Wintersowing provides a more protected environment, and how much this does or does not matter to you will depend on how wild your location is, among other things. Often seeds that are sown in the fall sprout just fine, but at other times they may not. There's wind that can blow them away; heavy rainfall that can wash them away; voles, field mice and various insects that may eat your seeds before they can sprout or nibble the seedlings the very second they sprout. I think you have to experiment and see what works for you.

A key component of winter sowing is that the seeds are exposed to natural weather conditions and this is important for plants that need cold stratification or alternating periods of cold/cool and warm stratification. To get those sorts of seeds to sprout indoors, you have to artificially stratify them at specific temperatures inside a refrigerator, and the temperature they need (a) may not be the usual temperature you keep your fridge set to, and (b) not everyone has a large enough refrigerator or a small enough family that there's room for stratifying seeds in the fridge. A dorm fridge can be great for stratifying and takes up little space in the corner of a spare room. Or, you winter sow them and count on Mother Nature to naturall provide the stratification.

I almost never winter sow because in our very rural location, any container with seeds or seedlings in it is likely to fall prey to roaming wildlife looking desperately for something/anything to eat. I either start seeds indoors on light shelves, start them in the greenhouse (and it is a battle to keep the wildlife out of it too), or sow in the fall (poppies and larkspur and such) for winter and spring blooms. I can winter sow if I put the milk jugs inside clear plastic storage totes with lids that lock onto them with handles that fold down over the lid to keep it on and that usually deters the wildlife, but it is such a nuisance to deal with that I prefer the light shelf indoors. Even then the wild things will knock over, push over, and throw around containers trying to break into them. Never underestimate the power of a hungry varmint in winter.

I start most veggies indoors where I can control the conditions in which they germinate, and grow them on in the greenhouse after potting them up, but long before I had a greenhouse or even a screened-in porch (that now is a glassed-in sunroom), I started seedlings in flats on our porch and either carried them indoors at night to keep the wildilfe from turning over the flats and eating the seeds, or put them up on the top shelf of a baker's rack on the porch (sited so there wasn't nearby lawn furniture or a porch railing that would give varmints access to the flats).

Learning curves can be expensive, but if you take it slow and try not to push the process too hard you can make it somewhat less expensive. There are some flowers that are so hard and so time-consuming to grow from seed that even with a light shelf indoors and a greenhouse outdoors, I just don't even bother with them and instead buy that handful of plants at a nursery. If flowers raised from seed are really slow to germinate and excrutiatingly slow to grow and require more than 4 months of attention indoors from me, I just buy them. This includes wax begonias from seed and angelonias from seed. They are the size of the head of a pin when they sprout and they stay that size quite a while and I get tired of dealing with them and silently willing them to come on and grow already.

Dawn

I've done winter sowing for a few years with varying success. But from my experience, winter sown plants do better for me than seeds I start inside. They seem more hardy and less prone to being murdered by my lack of gardening know how. As for containers, you're only limited by imagination. Milk jugs are the preferred container, but you can use yogurt and butter tubs, roasting pans, rotisserie chicken containers, or even plastic cups. Basically anything that holds dirt can be used.

I had pretty good success winter sowing. I put most of my containers in a raised bed with a plastic wind break wrapped around it. I like this method for starting perennials, since they often need cold to germinate. But I started piracicaba and various greens that way. I have started both tomatoes and peppers in milk jugs, though I started them in March so they didn't have the up and down temps all winter. I always am starting stuff that I have no sure place for, so direct seeding in fall wouldn't work for me.

The use of dixie cups last spring what a real game changer for me via spring indoor sowing. Since I don't have any space, they worked terrific and made it easier for me. I got the idea from Dawn since she's mentioned starting her in Dixie cups. If me or anyone is going to start 150 tomato plants, that's the way to go!

Normally, I don't have money to even buy a package of Dixie cups, so I know the $ issue with growing. Since my husband's been working I've had the opportunity to spring a little money at gardening.

The Dixie cups and some starting soil are the only thing I spring $ for. I don't use a lot of the starting soil, either, with the Dixie cups. Ideally, I want to plant them outside right away after germination. If not, I upgrade them into reusable 8 and 16oz styrofoam cups containing compost and a touch of my best garden soil until the weather is right.

My kids are a big relief when dragging seedlings in and out of the house, for sure! I guess you can say that part is a "drag". lolz

It really hasn't been long since your Mom's passing. I hope your gardening helps you find peace as it does for most of us. I hope you get plenty of rest and self-care these days. <3

Amy, I'm thinking to secure my milk jugs to the chainlinked fence. Your post made me grateful that I have a big yard. That reminds me, I must be diligent to clean up as I go or I find myself spending 3 or 4 days walking all over the place cleaning up my messes and tools left behind hahaa

you all are so good to speak to me about my mother and help me with these new gardening processes. i had never even heard of wintersowing before dawn mentioned it a couple months ago to me. i have raised beds. and amy's idea of a wind break sounds good. i had wondered if cold frames could be used for this process tho my understanding of them is that around here, there'd be lots of lid adjustment.

dawn, i live in the outskirts of ada where so far, only army worms and army gophers have messed with anything, but i feel your plight.

this is a world of excellent information, and i sure do thank you all.

Coby, I meant to express my sympathy earlier. I hope gardening can give you some comfort.

I wanted you to know I had hoops over that bed I put the winter sown containers in. Clear plastic wrapped around the bottom 2 feet with top open. I had had fall crops in it and for a while whenever it was going to freeze I covered the whole thing with a tarp. That got old quick, but the bed was already set up when I winter sowed and it worked exceptionally well.

amy, thank you so much for your sympathy. it is a very close fit to say that gardening can be a comfort. why i have these raised beds now is that mama gave me her mad money the week before she died so that i could have raised beds put in. i cant get up and down worth squat and have pain issues, so i had pretty much dropped everything outside. well, inside too, to be honest, except essential housekeeping and the reading. i read big. now mama gave me my old love back, and it's amazing how much more interest i take in life. my husband has talked about it with me several times.

now i promise i'll quit going on about myself. i dont know what got into me, except for some reason i felt i had to tell chickencoupe about mama. cc is easy to talk to. in fact you all are.

much love,

coby

amy, i'm going to copycat you on your winter arrangement.

We talk about everything here Coby, and the people here are very friendly. You'll also find that many of us are physically challenged. I've had a knee and both hips replaced, so I can't kneel. I sit on a 5 gallon bucket with a "spin" seat on it in the garden. Most of my tools live in the bucket. I have to have help with heavy work. My husband started me with 3 4x4 beds as physical therapy and created a monster. I keep adding beds. I'm trying to figure out now, how I can grow mostly in spring and fall and and maybe winter. The heat is doing me in.

Coby, What a very special gift your mother gave you when she gave you that mad money for raised beds. I cannot help thinking that she knew just what you needed in your life, and that she could help make it happen. My dad taught me to garden just by letting me tag along with him when he did it for my entire life. Even though he's been gone for 12 years now, I still think of him every day and that's especially true when I'm out in the yard and garden. I always sort of feel his presence with me, and even if that is only in my mind, I'm glad he's there with me. It gives me a feeling of peace and of still being close to him. The people we love never truly leave us because they are a part of us that we carry with us wherever we go.

Please keep talking to us and never stop. We talk about gardening and about most everything in life here because if you are a gardener, gardening influences and affects everything you do. We also never forget that we are gardeners second, and living, breathing humans first and foremost.

One of my favorite things to suggest for people with mobility issues is salad tables that you can grow salad in without ever having to bend and stoop. I find it a huge bonus that the rabbits and other shorter varmints cannot eat my lettuce because it is growing on a tabletop. You can build one from wood, or you can take the lazy way out like I did and just put a flat concrete mixing tub on a table, drill drainage holes in the bottom (a great job for non-gardening spouses!), fill it with soil-less mix and have an instant garden that is waist high. I've done this for maybe 5 years now, and grow not only lettuce in mine, but also micro-tomatoes, radishes, bunching onions and green onions, short carrots like Parmex and Sweet 'N Neat, and other greens like kale, cress, chard and spinach.

The first salad table I ever saw is the one I've linked from the University of Maryland. At the time I found it, I was struggling with little beasties eating my lettuce plants about as quickly as they sprouted and already had switched to growing lettuce and other greens in containers. When I saw the salad table, I knew I'd have something like it one day.

UMD: Salad Tables

Amy, I don't think you're a monster at all, but your use of the word made me laugh. I'm now picturing you in your garden, sitting on your bucket working away, but you're wearing a Shrek costume though you have your own face (that's how we know that you are you and not Shrek, and yes, I know he is an ogre but that's close to being a monster). I think Shrek popped into my mind because he is our favorite color, green. Hey, it is your fault....you set off my imagination when you said monster. My mind is responsible for the rest of it. Gardeners tend to have great imaginations you know.

The only way I can explain to our friends how a non-gardener like Tim ended up married to an obsessed gardener like me is that I tell them "I was normal when he met me". I didn't let my gardening obsession show until after we'd gotten married and bought our first home, which had a huge but shady yard, and I unleashed my inner gardener on him slowly, bit by bit, so he had time to adjust to the idea. You know you're married to the right man when he carefully mows around every clump of wildflowers in the pasture because he knows that makes you happy.

As for your hips and knee replacements, you're in fine company. My friend, Fred, is in his early 90s and headed for his mid-90s, and he got those kinds of replacements done about 10 or 15 years ago. He is the youngest person I know despite the number of candles on his birthday cake every year and works rings around us younger folks. He needs some help from his son now to ranch and garden, but he isn't giving up those activities and I think they keep him going. I want to be just like him when I grow up.

Dawn

lol lol lol That is absolutely too funny. The heat must be making us giddy.

o you two are terrific. i laughed and laughed. i'm crazy abut this forum and everyone on it.

yes, mama knew me well. im so grateful to her. today i bought some mustard and spinach seeds for fall so the salad table link is well timed. also gonna plant me some beets. i think if amy is shrek im bound to be donkey. today i lost my keys at the garden center

i learned that you can never be too hot to feel stupid

I've started saving containers for wintersowing again. It makes me feel environmentally friendly, seeing all those plastic containers that would have just gone into the trash. And our office has a keurig machine, so I've been using the pods for starting seeds. They're the perfect size for it, and free.

Coby, OK now, true confession time---your subconcious mind lost your keys on purpose as an excuse to prowl around the garden center again, right? There nothing wrong with that.

Don't feel stupid. Everyone misplaces their keys. And garden trowels. I have 6 or 8 garden trowels because I tend to lose one in the jungle and can't find it, so I buy another. After the garden freezes to death in Dec, Jan or Feb, I find them all, gather them up, clean them off and put half of them in the garden shed and half in the greenhouse. It is a never-ending cycle, but I finally have so many of them that now when I misplace one, I just go to the potting shed or greenhouse and get another one, knowing I'll find them all after everything freezes back.

A few weeks ago at a bad house fire/explosion in town, my friend Fran and I kept stuggling to keep track of our keys. Usually we leave them in the ignition of the fire dept. vehicle and leave it running, but there were tons of townspeople around, our purses were in there, and we had our Fire Rehab (food, drinks, wet towels) for the firefighters set up pretty far from our vehicle. We still left a key in it, and left the engine running, but locked all the doors and then kept dropping keys, setting them down, etc. Half the time we were there it seemed like one or the other of us was wondering what happened to our keys. The next day while I was out buying more bottled water, Gatorade, packaged snacks and towels, I bought each of us a lanyard we can wear around our necks with our keys clipped to them. We used them at a fire last week and were so glad we didn't have to worry about losing our keys (unless we lose the lanyards, lol). I liked it so much that I think I'm going to get a lanyard to keep at home and wear with my keys attached to it when I'm outdoors. More than once I've lost my keys in the garden and the lanyard should put a halt to that. Or, at least having the lanyard attached the keys might give me a bigger lost object to look for.

Jen, I save everything to recycle into the garden. It drives my DH crazy, and he is a packrat by nature himself. I am not sure what his plans are for all of his junk that he saves in the garage, but all my junk has a very definite purpose somewhere down the road and I know what that purpose is.

Dawn

your father, dawn, must have been a real man. i dont doubt that you still miss him

dawn, i lose so many things on a day to day basis that i believe ive used my subconscious up

this evening i spent five minutes hunting the shovel. it was lying behind the chair id been sitting in

lol. At least it wasn't sitting in your lap. Or, it wasn't your sunglasses you were looking for and they were sitting on top of your head the whole time. See there, it could have been worse.

I hear you guys. The other day I came in from working out side. I was so hot sweat was running down my face. I took off my glasses and washed my face. Went to put my glasses back on. Boom!!! No glasses to be found. I looked all over the bathroom and bedroom still nothing. I was panicking by then, can't see squat without them. Finally got back to the kitchen and there they were on the counter. I have never taken them off in the kitchen, don't know how I found the bathroom. Ha ha had to laugh at myself.

Oh, I'm the hoarder and my husband hates clutter. Poor man, everything he owns can fit in our 2door car.

I've started wearing my glasses almost full time since the eye doc tells me my eyes are too dry to wear contact lenses so much anymore. I have learned one, it is worth the dry eyes and the special "Blink" drops to wear contacts while I garden. The dumb glasses just slide right off my face every.time.I.bend.over. GRR. Two, how the heck do you find your glasses when you can't SEE? At least with your cell phone you can call it and hopefully your ringer is on!

Jill...did your hubby fall over when he saw all the irises I sent home with you? :)

Coby, on the winter sowing, there's a group here that is totally focused on Winter Sowing. If you are on Facebook, there is a group there too. Winter Sowing is much more productive for me than scattering seeds. I don't even want to think of how many dollars worth of seeds I have "broadcast" in hopes of them magically producing the flower garden vision I have in my head and they NEVER DO. Winter sowing, when I take the effort to do it, is very effective and gives me fun gardening stuff to do starting in January.

Coby, I am so sorry to hear about your loss and it's very nice to see more people who grow to love this forum. Isn't it the best?! As others have said, I hope your gardening can bring you some peace. I know when I lost my dad 9 years ago, there were those moments I just needed to head out to the garden and then I could make it through. I always tell people gardening is my zen.

Wintersowing......thanks for the reminder. I need to start saving milk jugs because I don't have anywhere to indoor sow sadly. I always had a couple or three hundred seedlings in my laundry room at the other house. For timing sakes, I really need to wintersow this year. I have donated to the wintersown site before and when I did try wintersowing about 4 years ago, I learned a lot from their site. The only problem I ran into was I was not patient enough and would open the jugs and look every. single. day. lol

My main thing is that I am going to have to choose which of the seeds I want to wintersow. I have 6 notebook pages full of the different types of seeds I have. Oh how will I ever choose?!

Happy gardening everyone,

Melissa

Lol yep. "Oh great, more weeds" I think were his exact words. Then when I told him how much they would have cost to buy that many and I got them for free, he shut up. Now to keep them going until next spring.

thank you, melissa, for your condolences