I've used both Kerdi and Hydroban in the past. Kydroban installed quicker, but all the showers held up the same - which is to say really, really well. Under most circumstances I'd probably install Hydroban again.

How should you insulate behind a Hydroban or sheet membrane system,,,,specifically what about a vapor barrier. If using fiberglass bat insulation would you just use the paper lined stuff?

If he has done copper pans for years with good success why convert him to something he is not as comfortable with?

Because I think there are better ways to do it than that with a copper pan.

The issue is really just the copper pan. In MA there's a weird situation where many contractors have only ever used a copper pan and haven't moved on to the membrane systems. I've worked with this contractor before so I trust him to do a good job, but I think MA is really behind the curve on shower pan technology. Hydroban seems to be common to use on the walls, it's just using membranes to make pans where there's been no change. I suppose it keeps copper sheet metal fabricators working.

My thoughts were the exact same a jellytoast. There is nothing inherently wrong with a copper shower pan, personally I would be inclined to accept a well installed copper pan by an installer who has done a hundred of them than by someone learning on the fly. Just my .02......................

We used a Schulter system with kerdi board. I also agree that I would not want to be the first run at a new system that a contractor had. Just like you don't want the first time surgeon working on you. Get someone that knows the installation & product.

Be sure to waterproof outside the shower as you have opted to go without a door. After 100's of kerdi installations I have switched to USG. Far superior to Kerdi. Kerdi board is the weakest on the market. The system will work fine but there is a better option. You can order the tray custom to your dimensions. A big plus for someone new to sheet membrane waterproofing systems. I understand the concerns of millworkman & jellytoast but a copper pan lays flat. Eliminate that saturated mud bed. Waterproofing on the top is the way to go. A professional tile setter trying a new system is fine but a G.C. doing his own tile work not so much. IMO

USG Before & After · More Info

USG Before & After · More Info

Thanks. The shower will be installed by a sub-contracted tile professional. The thing seems to be that in MA tile guys are very traditional and haven't taken on many of the "new" products. I talked to him today about the floor in the downstairs bathroom where there is a tub. The floor is planking with 3/4" plywood on top. On top of that he will be putting in metal lath and a mud job to level the floor. He usually tiles straight onto that. But that's a very rigid structure and something like Nobelseal TS on top would give some crack isolation. He does use Hydroban on the cement back around the tub.

So "Creative Tile....." is the like for plywood, lath, mud and then NobelSeal TS? I talked to a local tile supplier and their comment was "....the NobelSeal is short money for the added insurance......"

A crack isolation membrane is always a good investment.

The bathroom floor is only 5'x7' so it seems silly not to have the NobleSeal TS on top of the mud bed.....that was the tile suppliers attitude anyway.....and it's my thinking too. I think a lot of residential floors in MA are plywood, lath and mud because that's how it's been done for years and presumably it works just fine. The tile guy and contractor don't even like tile backer boards on the floor because of the joints. Maybe the NobelSeal is overkill, but I think it's worth it.

OK, so explain this to me. In MA a copper pan goes down for a shower then it's dry packed. Durock goes on the walls and then everything is coated in Hydroban......so what's the copper pan doing other than acting as a form for the drypack?

If all gets coated with Hydroban as you described there is no need for a copper pan. This is a common scenario as installers combine systems. It's a learning curve. Setters who have been doing things one way for so long are very cautious to embrace new techniques. It takes time to build up confidence. Some state building codes are just now starting to come around to the newer systems. N.C is a good example. To your earlier question. Many sheet membranes are a vapor barrier as are the foam boards. Verify with the system you select. Do not double the barrier as you can create a moisture sandwich. Once you select a system contact the manufacturer's tech dept. with your questions. that way you avoid the possibility of getting misleading (although well intended ) info on the internet. Anyone can post a you tube video. Doesn't mean it's correct.

FYI here is a bathroom going in in MA. This looks like a great job, but very redundant and the home owner has a very expensive drypack form that will probably never see any water at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8-YK4YSKos

As far as insulating behind Hydroban the tile guy and contractor say that using the paper faced pink stuff is what they put behind the Durock when using Hydroban......the logic is that Hydroban is not a very good vapor barrier so you aren't creating a double vapor barrier.

Just an observation about all this. I think the resistance to a lot of the waterproofing systems and pre-formed styrofoam shower bases with professionals is that it takes some of the skill out of the job and makes quite a technical operation possible by the home owner. If you don't have to install and pitch a mud bed or get a copper pan made up the job becomes a lot easier. I'm sure there is also the concern that they know how to do it one way so why take the risk of doing it another way.

"Setters who have been doing things one way for so long are very cautious to embrace new techniques."

I can understand their reluctance if the system they have been using has a proven track record of being durable and water tight for years on end. They have to guarantee their work, and they have to deal with customers calling them back with problems. If their method is tried and true, that cuts their risk.

I completely agree. My contractor and his subs are the professionals and must be comfortable with the techniques, but as the home owner I must be too. When I saw some unevenness in the plywood subfloor in the bathroom I started to worry because the contractor had not mentioned to me that a full lath and mud job was going in on top to level the floor.

So right now we have arrived at plywood, lath, mud and Nobleseal TS on the downstairs bathroom floor which has a Kohler cast iron tub and Durock, and Hydroban up to the ceiling around the tub.

The shower on the third floor will be use a similar approach with either a copper pan and mud job covered with Hydroban or a Kohler cast iron shower base. The tile guy and plumber have only ever installed copper pans so I will go with their preference and add the insurance of a topical membrane.

Jeff, in my area (So Cal) the preferred method of constructing a shower is still the old-school method of lath, mud and a hot mopped pan. When I remodeled my bathrooms, that's what I wanted. As far as a contractor's choice in how they do things is concerned, I think it likely has as much to do with what customers want and expect as it does with sticking with something that has proven over time to be durable. When you tear out an old shower that was constructed the "old" way and find nary a leak, it's reassuring.

Jellytoast,

Yes I agree with that assessment too. Sometimes the old way is great and works well, but that needs to be tempered with being open to advances and new materials. I think I've come to a good compromise with my contractor and we are both happy. He gets his copper pan (and paying for that is just the easiest way forward) which I'm sure will be installed well and I get the added insurance of a topical Hydroban coating. Going this way will make for a very solid base for tile as well....my contractor is dubious about "plastic" preslopped shower bases....he likes a drypack bed....or something made out of cast iron like the Kohler bases.

Interesting discussion Jeff Meeks. I'm in MA too and beginning to familiarise myself with building techniques. We have two new bathrooms to be built and one to be remodelled.

I actually just posted a question about flooring in bathrooms forum. I have no idea about copper pans etc so I'll have a read about them.

Are you looking to get a wet floor ie; no trays, walk-in shower (with the glass wall as you mentioned) with a slope towards the drain? The shower area not being sunk-in to the floor?

Hi transnationalq,

My shower will have a curb and the floor will slope towards the drain at one end. The dimensions will be 66" x 36". it will be tiled on 3 sides (in the alcove) and have a single frameless glass wall about 40" long. I'll waterproof into the drying area and use a rain shower head to keep most of the water at the drain end of the shower.

Is the curb a design choice? Did you consider not having one?

Yes I did consider not having one, but I'm more comfortable having a bit of a curb to contain the water. I'll have a towel bar at the far end and dry off before stepping over the curb. FYI here is a basic layout...the tile will not be as shown, it will be a simple white hex with a few black hex tiles.

Best of luck with the flood test regardless the "system" or 'metal/hydro mashup" you use.

Yes, it's a while away yet, they still have to demo upstairs, but a flood test will be done. He is going to use the copper pan as he's comfortable with that and just Hydroban the entire shower and floor and a few inches up the walls outside the shower so there won't be any issues with having no shower door.

Jeff Meeks May I ask what the dimensions of your bathroom are?

Sure, they are 6' x 10'