Step one.. Get a soil test at your loca at extension.

For now do nothing as far as redo.. I know it hard. It's not too far gone. Around Sept 15 or so mow it very short like 1.5 inches bag clippings. Lightly vertislice or verticut ( rent these at homedepot) go north/south east/ west. Now again bag grass and what not on surface. Follow soil test recommendations. Mine was 100 lbs of lime per 1000sqft. Than over seed with broadcast spreader.. Go to specialty store like co-op and buy highest quality fescue blend you can afford. 50 lb bag I bought was $99

seed/ fertilize/ keep moist for 2-3 weeks. I also put earth right superstuff on mine after I seeded.

It can be done. Morpheus helped me a lot here's my redo.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3272842/help-my-lawn-is-terrible-need-advice

Good luck

My first reaction to darktower's first reaction was to disagree with the soil test first. But if you want to look like a golf course again, it wouldn't hurt. Look at some of the Logan Labs soil test posts on this forum to see what morpheus can do with their results. One thing to note is there are different kinds of lime, and if you don't have a soil test that shows magnesium levels, you won't know which kind of lime to use.

Fescue and bermuda are almost opposites. What's different? Mowing height. Fescue should be mowed at the highest setting. Fertilizing. Fertilize only 3x per year. First app is in the late spring (Memorial Day), second app is Labor Day, third app is late fall after the grass has stopped growing but before you get lots of frost.

The best seed will have 0.00% weed and 0.00% Other Crop listed on the label. You get what you pay for with seed. You won't find that quality of seed in a store. The problem with quality seed is the bad grasses like bermuda and creeping bentgrass have seed the size of dust. Seed is measured in millions per pound. With fescue it is thousands per pound. So even if you have a very small percentage of bermuda, it could be thousands of seeds in the bag.

Use the same deep and infrequent watering plan that you (hopefully) were using on your bermuda.

Thanks for both reply's. I think I'll wait on the soil test until I'm ready to over seed again in September. I thought it was interesting that you suggested the use of a vertislice machine in lieu of an aerator?

Dchall - understand the new mowing height, that will take some getting use to. Yes on my watering plan, deep and infrequent. I am surprised on the fertilizer schedule, so 3 times annual even if I'm only using an organic Nitrogen product? Should I be using a different type of fertilizer on Fescue? I used a very quality seed when I overseeded 2 weeks ago, time will tell if I see any results from it. How about a Pre or Post Emergent program?

here was my project 2 weeks ago.

I live in Southern Indiana, which looks to be 6b on the hardiness zone maps, and tall fescues and fescue blends are what we see most of around here. Dimension/Dithiopyr based pre-emergents seem to work best, especially if applied in mid-April and again in mid-June. For post-emergent, I spot spray with Tenactiy for crabgrass and Yellow Nutsedge and use Ortho Weed-B-Gon for general broadleaf weeds.

Welcome to the world of cool season grasses in the transition zone. Your main enemies are crabgrass and heat. I have the following advice for you:

• If you want a high quality lawn I recommend you take control of what cultivars you use rather than buying whatever some company blended. Bullseye, Rhambler, Mustang 4 are top notch cultivars for this area and can be found at Seed Superstore.Quality seed matters.
• Do not over-apply seed. More is not better. Plants need room to grow.
• Come to terms with the fact you may need to overseed every year.Tall fescue does not spread.
• Forget about organic stuff when trying to seed a lawn. Put down starter fertilizer when seeding, fertilize properly in the fall, winterize and fertilize again in the spring. Once the grass is established you can use organics if you so wish.
• 75% of the nitrogen you apply should be applied in the fall. Tall fescue looks best when it gets ~4lbs of nitrogen a year.
• Use Prodiamine in the fall to keep winter weeds at bay and again March 1st at 5 month rate to prevent crabgrass germination through the summer. Prodiamine does not leach, apply it early, take no chances.
• Have broadleaf herbicide (2,4D, mecoprop, dicamba mix) and quinclorac handy. Spray as needed in the spring to keep anything that breaks through under control.
• Water deep and infrequent. By infrequent I mean wait until the grass shows signs of drought stress to water. Could be every 3 days in the heat of summer or every 2 weeks.
• A PGR can take your grass to the next level.

j4c11, I've seen several others suggesting Prodiamine use in the spring and fall. Does this come in a granular or spray only? I know there's always a little work involved in having a great lawn, but I'd much rather put granular down over 15,000 square feet than to try and spray cover it.

When you say PGR, I assume you mean Plant Growth Regulators? I really don't see a lot about them in relation to residential use. Could you elaborate?

Thanks for helping dellonb, and maybe me in the process!

I use WDG, but I agree spraying 15,000 square feet would be quite a bit of work. But even then it might be worthwhile investing in a tow behind sprayer. A $65 bottle would probably last you 6-7 years for a 15k lawn and save you big $ over buying pre-emergent from big box stores.

PGRs stop/reduce blade growth and redirect it downwards (roots) and sideways(tillers) resulting in a thicker hardier lawn. They also help with drought resistance, greatly reduce mowing (50% +) and enhance color. The downside is they are a bit expensive.

A tow behind would require me having something to tow it behind. I walk my lawn and don't own a rider, or have a spot to store one. It's really starting to sound like a losing proposition to me. Still, it may be worth looking into. It's just nice knowing what all my options are.

As far as the PGRs, any suggestions that I could look into? Just something to start my research with.

Thanks for the information.

EDIT: This sprayer can be pushed through the yard though, and has a front-mounted spray head that will spray a swath 50" wide. I may be able to use something like this. I'll have to research a little further.

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/master-mfg-master-gardener-cart-sprayer-gal-p-1775.html

Well, I think if spraying prodiamine twice a year is unfeasible then spraying a PGR every 4 weeks will be even more so. Primo Maxx is widely used in lawn care.

Where do I purchase these chemicals and the prodamine? Do the suggested chemicals have other common names that I would find at a box store or landscape supply store? Should I order them online?

So if I understand, your telling me from today moving forward don't do anything other than spot treat weeds until early fall? In early fall, apply Prodamine and overseed the lawn and apply the required dose of nitrogen? I applied a healthy dose of starter fertilizer 2 weeks ago when I overseeded the lawn.

Most of these products can be found online, Prodiamine is available on Amazon. To clarify the order of operations, you would overseed and apply starter fertilizer at the same time at bag rate, fertilize again mid-October at 1# of N per ksf, fertilize again at 1# of N per ksf beginning of December when the grass is still green but no longer actively growing. Prodiamine has to go down after seeding as to not interfere with fescue germination and there's a waiting period - it's either 30 or 60 days, you will find that on the label.

Aerator is in my opinion a disaster when seeding with fescue. It puts plugs in the ground which fescue falls in to creating a clumpy mess. Verticutting cross ways creates slits of even proportion that allows even seed distribution in the seed bed. I know cause I tried aerating and it was a mess!

I'm worried that with such large gaps between clumps you might have seed washed away. Make sure the lawn is wet before before overseeding. If there is no thatch, then you may want to cover those areas. After overseeding water the lawn again. Seeds will stick to the top of the thatch at first, but the extra water will guide the seeds below the thatch and "trap" it so it does not run off. The seeds become wet as when they land on the damp thatch, begin to trigger germination, and then will germinate once the seed has been washed into the soil.

Professional grass growers (farmers and ranchers) follow a fertilizer schedule of applying 1/4 the amount of N in the late spring and 3/4 of the N in the fall. We have adapted their basic guide and apply on Memorial Day, Labor Day, and around Thanksgiving for a winterizer (High N low to zero P and K fast release). Bermuda is the grass that's different from most other turf grasses. That's the one you're used to and if it was a golf course quality, you were doing everything that makes bermuda care different. So take a deep breath and forget everything you know about bermuda care. Watering will be the same...like this...

Watering: Deep and infrequent is the mantra for watering. This is for all turf grass all over the place. Deep means 1 inch all at one time. Put some cat food or tuna cans around the yard, and time how long it takes your sprinkler(s) to fill all the cans. Memorize that time. That will be the time you water from now on. My hose, sprinkler and water pressure takes 8 full hours to fill the cans. Your time will likely be less. I like gentle watering. As for watering frequency, that depends on the temperature. With temps in the 90s, deep water once per week. With temps in the 80s, deep water once every 2 weeks. With temps in the 70s, deep water once every 3 weeks. With temps below 70, deep water once a month. Note that you have to keep up with quickly changing temps in the spring and fall. This deep and infrequent schedule works in Phoenix and in Vermont, so it should work for you. The reason for deep and infrequent is to grow deeper, more drought resistant roots and to allow the soil to dry completely at the surface for several days before watering again. If it rains, reset your calendar to account for the rainfall.

If you use a verticutter you can take some of the thatch and dead grass it pulls out and put it back on top of the seed to retain moisture and keep the seed in place.

All - thanks for the advice.

I was at the house today and I see why you don't over seed in Spring, WEEDS!! Some of the seed is growing, but so are the weeds. My question, will I hurt the seed that has yet to germinate if I spray with a Weed B Gone product?

Doesn't matter either way, if you don't kill the weeds they will smother the seedlings.

Thanks for this great thread dellonb and all of you. Dellon, at the advice of a GW member, I used Rebel Tall Fescue Seed (clumping) last fall and am amazed as it's durability, color and growth. As we still have some bare spots, next fall we may add in some rhizomatous fescue (spreading) seed to the mix unless I hear GW say that's not a good idea.. An example of such is RTF Water Saver (10% rhizomatous). Good luck and nice home!

• Use 30% less water
• Contains RTF rhizomatous tall fescue
• Self-repairing turf, fills in bare spots
• Grows great in sun or shade
• Deep rooting

So j4c11, brief description of the difference of Rebel from the elite cultivars? And where do you get the later? Also, rhizomes spread by definition: you think it's mis-advertizing? Thanks for your comment. I'm learning on fescue: I realized since we will seed again in the fall, for example, the bald spots (from heavy pre-emergent RU proximate to seeding last fall) should fill in from this fall seeding.

I'm glad you asked, I have experience with both Rebel and elite cultivars. I currently have a stand of Speedway tall fescue and a couple years ago I had Rebel. I should mention, Speedway is the #1 cultivar in 2011 NTEP tests in Raleigh NC so the differences are a bit exacerbated, but the differences compared to Rebel are:

- Much quicker germination.

- Vastly superior establishment and seedling vigor.

- Much better density.

- Much better genetic color - it's a few shades darker than Rebel.

- Superior drought resistance.

- Better texture.

I always germinate some seed in a clear plastic cup about one month before seeding time so I know what to expect as far as timing. From my observations, elite fescues will develop deeper roots faster than Rebel. The champion in this category was Bullseye which dropped 2 inch roots by day 4 with no top growth. Rebel is the opposite, it produced top growth before roots.

In layman's terms, it's the difference between a Mercedes and a Ford.

In regards to rhizomes, the spreading ability of these cultivars has been tested and found to be non-existent:

https://seedsuperstore.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/does-tall-fescue-spread/

You can get good seed online at seed super store or you might find places that sell it locally. Check NTEP tests to see which ones do best in your area.

You offer great substantiation to your words, j4c! Thank you for that link to a true two year science fair project by a smart lawn lover. Summary for others is below. j4c, I live in Northern Virginia. Since the cultivars sound intriguing based on your analysis above, I probably will consider them. Do you suggest a blend of Tall Fescue Cultivars such as Falcon V, Bullseye, and Monet? Or is a bag of Bullseye from Seedsuperstore just as good next August? Thanks again for this thread everyone. Great knowledge here.

"Turf type tall fescues have always “spread” by producing long, wide bladed tillers on the edge of a damaged area. The varieties I tested did just that. As far as I was able to observe, none of them extended a rhizome (underground lateral shoot) into the killed area during two growing seasons"

Check out the 2011 NTEP data. Those cultivars in the mix should give you an outstanding lawn. I couldn't find an NTEP location in northern VA but they do very well in Blacksburg VA as well as further north in University Park PA:

http://www.ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_12-9/tf06va111t.txt

http://www.ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_12-9/tf06pa111t.txt

The slight advantage to the mix is that the cultivars can complement each other's strengths and weaknesses. Having said that, I had a 100% Bullseye lawn and it looked great even on its own.

Here's a picture of Bullseye about 4 weeks after seeding:

Speedway 4 weeks after seeding:

What type of weed is this that has popped up after over seeding and what will eradicate it?

I think it's Poa Annua.

Update... We are making progress. I still have a few bare spots that will need to be addressed when I overseed in the fall but otherwise it's looking good.

I also bought a new toy for my mower, a striping kit. I have a Toro timemaster 30 and this new addition is great!

Looking wonderful. Great job! I bought a lawn striping kit for my Honda mower last year as well. It's from CheckMate. I'm really pleased with the results. It's really nice to see how quickly a lawn can turn around with a little bit of work and time.