Hi springrose: You have a 5-month old baby? How precious !! I would give up $$$$ just to have one day of my child as a baby again ... It was so much fun carrying her around !! She's 13-year old now.

Fast & cheap solution: get wood-ash (from wood-logs) and dust the soil before a heavy rain (about 1/2 cup). Wood-ash can blind your eyes, it burns with high pH, so keep it out of your eyes & apply on a non-windy day. Woodash's pH is over 12, and Gardenia thrive in soil between pH 5 and 6 ... so you want just a touch of woodash, to raise the pH to neutral (around 7 to 8) for roses GRAFTED ON DR. HUEY, which prefers alkaline.

Safer solution: get a bag of mushroom compost (sold at HomeDepot, Lowe's) ... mushroom compost has pH between 8 and 10, VERY ALKALINE. Spread a thin layer on top, that will stop any B.S. spores on the ground & raise soil pH. This is recommended by Penn State University to STOP artillery fungus that shoots up black-spots on white sidings and cars. This is for roses GRAFTED ON DR. HUEY, which prefers alkaline.

Proven solution: Both Jess (acidic clay) and I (alkaline clay) reverse blackspots on our roses through sulfate of potash. I dug up Golden Celebration rose to fix drainage, and put too much cracked corn (pH 4), and gypsum (calcium sulfate) which drove down potassium. That rose broke out in blackspots, so I gave it 1/8 cup of sulfate of potash .. blackspot gone with new growth.

I have Marie Daly as OWN-ROOT.. never have blackspots unless given too much tap water at pH 8.6 (high in calcium hydroxide). Marie Daly get tons of acidic rain (pH 5.6) and never get blackspots either. Since you are in Texas, I suspect high-calcium is the problem, which drives down potassium. I would choose the "Proven Solution", since I'm pretty sure that Marie Daly as OWN-ROOT can handle pH between 5 and 6 ... IT HATED LIME (pH 9) when I gave it.

If Marie Daly is bought from Chamblee's nursery, then it's own-root. Most old-garden-roses are own-root, vs. more hybrid teas are grafted on Dr. Huey. Below link is suflate of potash, sold for $8.99 on Amazon. Best to order on line, since the Espoma Potash sold at local stores is muriate of potash, or potassium chloride, with salt index of 112.6. Sulfate of potash has lower salt-index of 43 ... that's what you want.

http://www.amazon.com/Potassium-Sulfate-Potash-Organic-Pound/dp/B004JD6MGK

Wow! Thank you for such a long and informative post, Straw. You pretty much guessed that my own-root Marie Daly is from Chamblee's. I grew several grafted HT's (probably Huey) at my old house, plus a few own-root HT's, floribundas, and Austins. I'm starting over now with mostly OGR's but plan to add some moderns later. Coincidentally, I recently ordered a bag of sulfate of potash to supplement my potted roses so I'm expecting that shortly. Can't wait to give it a try. Thanks for the gentle reminder to cherish my littles. Today I was squatting down to pick off the spotty leaves with the baby in one arm and my 2-year-old holding the bag... such precious (if exhausting) days! My oldest niece is 13 and it's unbelievable how the years have flown. Thanks again and God bless!

P.S. Forgot to ask, how do you apply the sulfate of potash? Sprinkle on soil? Water before and/or after?

springrosemama: A mother of 5 months old taking care of roses.... it's an overwhelming feeling. All respect and prayers for you and your baby. Welcome to Organic Rose Forum.

Straw has very comprehensively explained what treatment is to be give. In addition to what Straw has already stated, I would suggest a precaution. Please keep the bottom of your rose bushes free of leaves and the shoots close to the ground may be trimmed. I do that with my roses. I have seen that roses with a thick leave growth at the bottom get more black spot than those which do not have a bushy bottom. Most of my rose bushes now have sort of a bald bottom, around 4-6 inches from ground. Also, trim the leaves that are jumbled up on the inside of the bush so that it gets good air circulation.

Straw: Regarding the potash treatment you mentioned above, would you recommend the same for mildew also? I have been using lot of gypsum in the past one month. Do you think it would have locked up the potash that I gave it and also the potassium that comes from my compost? Should I give all my roses a fresh application of potash?

best regards

Thank you, Khaleed. Yes, it is a little overwhelming at times. I'm trying not to bite off more than I can chew! Marie Daly did spread out before she grew up and had way too much growth near the ground, but I was reluctant to cut off the buds. Now that all the blooms are spent, I'll be trimming off all that bottom growth per your suggestion.

Khalid I only saw this now: "Please keep the bottom of your rose bushes free of leaves and the shoots close to the ground may be trimmed"

thanks for this advice, I will start doing this right away...especially now with the heavy end-of-summer dew...

and this is great - I started doing this and it really works, helping against BS: "Also, trim the leaves that are jumbled up on the inside of the bush so that it gets good air circulation" (I always pick the oldest leaves first, they are more disease prone than new leaves)

Straw, from now on I will only allow rainwater to dissolve the Potassium.

I love this forum, there is so much to learn and it is so exciting....thanks Straw and Khalid :-)

have you tried the milk yet Khalid? I read somewhere that corn flour also helps for that, so the other day when my Purple Glow broke out in mildew, I realized the tall swinging canes of my bloomless Gertrude next to it splashed a lot of extra rainwater on her. Now that that is taken care of there won't be any more problems, but I immediately sprayed her with lots of 100% full cream milk and when she dried some corn flour sprinkled lightly on top. She is mildew free now.

It just started raining....this is a beautiful moment. I love the smell of rain on dry earth...heavenly...

welcome Springrosemama!!!!!!!!!

Jess: When you sprayed milk, did you get lot of flies in your house? I am afraid that it might attract lot of flies inside the house.

Jess: I love the smell of rain too, and your rain-pics of roses are best !! Research on blackspots showed that the fungus get splashed up from below. One lady in HMF stated that dusting with corn-flour was effective against mildew, but NOT for her blackspots. I tried that, and it took away the mildew on my Wise Portia, despite having less than 1 hour of sun in late fall !! Corn is acidic at pH 4, it's like my spraying vinegar on the molds in the shower. At pH 4, both fungus and bacteria are zapped.

Springrose: You are so blessed to have a cute 5-month and an adorable-2-year old. I would give up all my roses just to have 1 day with my child as a baby again. And would give up all roses just to have my child shower me with hugs & kisses like she used to as a toddler ... nothing is more precious than love from your kids when they were young !!

Khalid asked a very good question: "Straw: Regarding the potash treatment you mentioned above, would you recommend the same for mildew also? I have been using lot of gypsum in the past one month. Do you think it would have locked up the potash that I gave it and also the potassium that comes from my compost." YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT UP THE CALCIUM WILL BRING DOWN POTASSIUM. One time I put too much soluble-gypsum (calcium sulfate) around 3 roses ... they all broke out immediately in rust (orange fungus). Agricultural research showed that low-potassium induce rust.

The most effective cure for mildew is a spray called "Green Cure", which is potassium bicarbonate. Yes, potassium helps with mildew and any fungal prevention.

Someone posted in Organic Rose about her soil test came back with pH slightly alkaline, but her soil is very high in calcium & low in potassium. She reported blackspots, faded colors and skinny stems on her roses, typical of potassium deficiency.

CORRECTION: I once remarked that sulfate of potash can fade the color, then I realize that's a combo of sulfate of potash and gypsum that I used, so that could be from the calcium in gypsum. One thing I'm sure about: Faded bloom-color is the result of high-pH, which make trace elements less available. My soil pH is high at 7.7, and my pink daffodils are beige, since I didn't give them chicken manure (high in trace elements zinc, boron, an copper).

Hidden Valley Hibiscus nursery link spoke on how beneficial potassium is compared to danger of phosphorus. Roses have more petals, and just as vivid colors as Hibiscus:

http://www.hiddenvalleyhibiscus.com/care/feeding.htm

" Hibiscus have a voracious need for potassium - Potassium assists in photosynthesis, the plant's process that uses sunlight and water to create sugars for food. These sugars are then used to build every part of the plant, and hibiscus, with their complex, colorful, huge flowers need more potassium than most plants to assist in these building processes. Potassium also draws water into every plant cell, keeping each cell plump, hydrated, and healthy, which in turn makes the plant lusher and prettier, as well as more resistant to drought and disease.

Hiibiscus do not tolerate phosphorus well, and in high doses, it will slowly damage hibiscus plants over time. One of the most common mistake novice hibiscus-growers make is to use "Superbloom" or "Bloom Booster" fertilizers. These products contain extremely high proportions of phosphorus and are very damaging to hibiscus. We did a careful trial of phosphorus some years ago at HVH, in order to find out what the optimum levels of phosphorus would be for root and flower development. We intended to gradually increase phosphorus with each watering over a period of time, expecting to find improved blooming. Instead we watched the hibiscus go downhill within a couple of weeks of increasing phosphorus! It was shocking how quickly and how severely the phosphorus sickened our plants! As the trial continued, the hibiscus became stunted, their leaves yellowed, and they looked terrible! When we did further research on the effects of phosphorus, we found out that in several species of plants, phosphorus ties up other minerals and nutrients, such as iron, before the roots can absorb them. So our hibiscus were being slowly starved to death. "

Straw: That's a great writeup and clarifies everything. Please disregard my comments in the other post where I mentioned about using wood ash. I had not read this post then. I will give potash to my roses now to counter the excess. I will also buy potassium bicarbonate for using in spray against fungus, if need be. But does Potassium Bicarbonate come in a natural form? Would it be termed an organic treatment?

Thanks a lot Straw, it was very helpful.

I am going to go slow on the gypsum from now on, thanks for this great info Straw...

I was just wondering today, with all our droughts and heat here, I might have to water my Potassium into the soil with my tap water... I don't have a rain-tank....will that have a very negative effect?

Also, will it help at all if I give lots and lots of water to get rid of some of the gypsum, and then add Potassium Sulphate again afterwards?

Khalid: Wikipedia stated: "potassium bicarbonate is very rarely found in its natural form, the mineral called kalicinite.

Potassium bicarbonate is an effective fungicide against powdery mildew and apple scab, allowed for use in organic farming.[4][5][6][7]

Potassium bicarbonate is often found added to bottled water to affect taste.[8]

Potassium bicarbonate has widespread use in crops, especially for neutralizing acidic soil. Some Africans use it as a native salt in cooking."

Jess: "Yes" to both your questions .. I agree with that. I use gypsum together with sulfate of potash since gypsum is known to de-salt soil, and gypsum has 17% sulfur which helps to break up clay, plus lower tap-water's high pH. Sulfate of potash at 21% sulfur is needed in VERY SMALL amount since its NPK is so high at 0-0-50.

Straw wrote: "Potassium bicarbonate is an effective fungicide against powdery mildew and apple scab, allowed for use in organic farming"

Great

many thanks Straw :-)

I will give small amounts regularly instead of one big amount only once (per week)...

you mentioned that you gave 1/8 of a cup? Is that once-off before big rains? How much should I give now that winter is almost upon us, and with the heavy dew I see some BS here and there?

Jess: I once researched on the best temp. for root-growth, and it's above 58 F, or 14 C. Potassium & calcium & phosphorus in the ratio of 4:2:1 gave the best root-growth in hydroponics experiment. Thus, potassium is best given when the temp. is ABOVE 14 C in that ratio.

In spring time when the temp. is above 50 F, or above 10 C, I give my roses chicken-manure with NPK 5-3-2, plus some sulfate of potash, and some blood meal NPK 0-0-12 for nitrogen (my roses are very tiny due to winter-kill).

Blackspots can result from lack of water. When it's cold, there's less water available. The late fall here is dry & cold, so I dumped leaves on my roses to keep them moist .. they went into winter with zero blackspots.

Last summer I gave my Golden Celebration 1/8 cup (2 Tablespoon) of sulfate of potash because I dug that up to fix the drainage, and put too much gypsum to break up the hard-clay .. it broke out in blackspots, so I gave it a BIG dose of sulfate of potash to balance out the gypsum in the planting hole. Worked fantastic, Golden Celebration became clean within a month, after heavy rains.

thank you Straw... I suspected the water was not enough... I am so happy to have that confirmed... So in winter (it is mostly very dry here - most of the time, even in winter) - I also need to keep their roots moist with enough water.. ?

Yes, one rose-grower with many pots in Michigan waters her roses in the winter. She's one-zone warmer than me. Roses in cold zone die more because of dryness, rather than cold weather. One rose in a very dry spot (wood-chips mixed with clay) might not make it. I piled up leaves on top, but I didn't water it ... we have a dry winter, not much snow.

thanks you Straw I will definitely carry on with watering....I was also thinking about my 3 baby Sugar Maple trees, their roots grow during winter and they love water so I will carry on watering them as well....

Now I have the almost impossible task of finding leaves. there are millions of Acacia thorn trees but their leaves are tiny...my only option might be mowed lawn clippings?

Any suggestions and advice Straw, Khalid, Samuel?

I don't have access to lots of soil either...the dam isn't 100% dry yet...maybe I should search for another area along the river for that...for winter mulch - could that work at all?

Jess: Just dumping more soil (taken from the river) on top of your existing roses will protect the roots from drying out. Plus less need for fertilizer, since the river-soil has plenty of minerals. In my zone 5a, dumping soil on top in late fall (before winter), helps to keep roots moist through our dry winter.

Marie is mostly clean now that I've removed most of the bottom growth, but we have not had any rain since I first posted, except for a 5 minute drizzle 2 days ago. All of my other roses are still clean.

Jess: I see lot of trees in the jungle close to your property. Are they not deciduous?

Hi Springrose: Thanks for the update, sulfate of potash at 1 teaspoon is enough to neutralize alkaline tap-water. The best ratio for roses is EQUAL amount of potassium to nitrogen. Blood meal NPK is 12-0-0, and sulfate of potash NPK is 0-0-50. Four times 12 is 48, that's close enough to 50.

One would need 4 teaspoon of blood meal per teaspoon of sulfate of potash, if you want fast re-growth of the leaves you removed, plus blooming. Blood meal is sold cheap at local stores. I never burn my plants with blood meal, but I burnt roses with chicken manure (high in nitrogen).

I use blood meal when I want more leaves, or taller plants after winter-kill.

Thanks, Straw. I don't have blood meal but I do have Alaska fish fertilizer 5-1-1 which I use on my potted roses. Would that be useful at all? If not, I could always get a bag of blood meal at the store this weekend. Would blood meal attract my dog? I got bone meal once and she went crazy.

Those are mainly Karoo Acacias Khalid, and I have a Chinese Elm as well. but the leaves are tiny....and my maples are still young trees- that will be great to use...

I think I have to start using the river soil...as soon as possible... thanks for this advice Straw...

Jess, you may look around in the neighbour hood. Few people want to get rid of leaves falling from their trees. Sometime, services guys clean the area around roads and pick all leaves during fall. It might be great to coordinate with them if there is someone known to you.

Springrose: Alaska fish fertilizer would be better than blood-meal, esp. when it has trace-elements for deeper-colors. Blood meal attracted dog only when I dumped 2 cups around a pine tree, but DID NOT attract dogs when I used less than a tablespoon and water in immediately for roses. If you don't get rain, then don't use any solids .... SOLUBLE like Alaska fish fertilizer is best for dry & hot weather.

I had more trouble with stinkier alfalfa meal .... dogs can sniff that from far away.

We finally got a couple days of light rain. Blackspot is still hanging around on Marie but at least none of the other roses have it. The other day I noticed some deformed/damaged new growth on Marie. I saw a medium-sized insect on it so I'm assuming the bugs are behind this... I hope? Sorry for the bad photo; could not get camera to focus.

Hi springrose: deformed/damaged new growth with medium-sized insect sounds like midge-problem. Midge doesn't like it too dry nor too wet soil-surface. If you can get pea-gravel at local stores (tiny pebbles with a variety of colorful minerals) .. quick solution is to spread a very thin layer around Marie Daly .. that will provide a dry surface so midge can't hatch.

Hopefully the high pH of pea-gravel will help fungal disease (black spot), and stop any insects from hatching from below. Pea-gravel is slow release, so it won't shoot up soil pH, plus its high pH will neutralize acidic rain.

Last year we had over 49" of rain. I put pea-gravel in 2 pots .. zero mildew, zero blackspots for the entire year, despite in shady location & poor circulation.

Thanks Straw, I'll give it a try.

Springrose: Also good cut off deformed/damaged new growth on Marie, insects like midge often lay their eggs inside new growth, be it bud or shoot.

Pea-gravel will give calcium, plus magnesium to help utilize the sulfate of potash that you gave earlier. Good luck with your roses and God bless your kids ... would love to see their pics. !!

I've found that Marie Daly is more resistant than Marie Pavie, but still occasionally loses about 10-20% of her foliage to BS. She bounces back quickly tho! We have a trio of Marie Daly which doesn't even get the sun until after 11 am and she's pretty clean considering.

The Earthkinds really are tough, and can get by on less watering and feeding than many roses. But I've found that many of them do get BS; but they don't defoliate completely AND they don't die!!!

Thanks, Straw and Barbara. Marie Daly is one tough plant in spite of the BS and whatever's eating her. She's the most vigorous of all my Earthkind roses.

No mom can resist showing off her kids. Here's a pic of my boys from February. They're growing so fast!

Hi Springrose: Thank you for fulfilling my wish of seeing your cute babies. Your boys look so smart & grown-up in those outfits. They are adorable !! Gardening is good for children, they sunshine, and it's good for their health. Best memories of my daughter were when she helped me in the garden.