I realize it is your office, but I think Br#2 should swap the door and closet, putting the door in the hall to the master. This makes it better as a bedroom, as it's more private and closer to the bathroom, and a good offfice as it's still near the LR but private and, well, closer to the bathroom.

Have you placed imaginary furniture in the LR and then traced paths through it, to be sure it works as the walkway from office/master/foyer to kitchen/kids/dining?

Why not put the back bedroom's door (sorry, I can't read the numbers) across from the other bedroom's door? It would give a bit more privacy to the bedroom.

Will the kids ever be in the bathroom at the same time? Probably not. They'd probably appreciate more storage and counter space, rather than two sinks.

Has the "new and improved" kitchen been through Kitchens? I'm not a kitchen pro but I don't quite get it.

Why can the sink in the Laundry? Where do you dump mop water and rinse the mop and soak clothes?

This is probably beyond what you want at this point, but here goes: I like how your garage hall and foyer are near each other,, but I don't like how the garage hall empties right into the LR, and you can see it from the LR. I think I'd rather see that hall empty into the foyer and point straight to the master bedroom hall. But, that would mean moving the LR back.

Perhaps you can revisit the kitchen some more. As it is, picture this: you all arrive home, enter through the garage, and the kids, heading to their rooms and bathroom, walk straight into the kitchen and swerve around the island. Guarantee they drop more than their water bottles on the island. Can the kitchen entry be closer to the sink, making that a true cleanup area, and the rest of the kitchen a prep and cook zone?

I can't see the plan large enough to see sizes like the master bath and shower, etc.

Also do you have elevations?

I am truly worried about the hall / pantry area and how it enters the kitchen right in the middle of the action. I can see that being a huge bottleneck as people move around the home - doing laundry, getting into that pantry, coming home / in from the garage.

I think it's going to get old walking around 180 degrees to the pantry - I'd at least change the door to opposite the other closet - no - actually I wouldn't - that just creates more traffic issues. I think that space needs work in a big way - it's so important - and I think you are going to be bonding off each other in that space.

I am not creative enough to fix it - but I can see it's flaws. Just imagine someone coming home from work while dinner is being prepared and kids streaming in from outside all at one. 4 person pile up in the hall...

Just a side note: a guest entering the foyer will experience a dark enclosure. Your foyer has boxed off space with no windows into it from the front and will feel like entering a cave space, especially after entering through a recessed space in the front wall (itself cave-like). There is no good daylight penetration to greet your guest and the first impression will be very dour in this cave-like dark space. Also there's no front coat closet to put their coat.

I agree with comments above (especially JDS's comment about the obnoxious dimension lines - it's a pain to distinguish between dimension lines and walls!). I see no need for two sinks in the kids' bath. And I would not give up a laundry sink.

A few other thoughts - it's a long trek from the your bedroom, through the closets, to the potty. U-shaped walk-in closets are an inefficient use of space - you can't access clothes in the corners, and in the left on especially, there's a large ratio of floor space to clothes space.

The kids' bedrooms have tiny closets, especially for such large rooms.

The storage area in the garage - what's your plan for this? Is it just a way to use awkward space generated by the pantry?

And about the pantry - like the master closets, you have corners and floor space impeding convenient storage space. And the location is far from ideal. As others commented, this area creates a giant bottleneck.

I can't read the dimensions, but the family room is going to shrink in a hurry once you account for the traffic lane through it.

I'm very curious about the elevations and roof line, especially with an upstairs over one wing. The front of the house has a lot of expensive corners which don't seem to add any value.

Puttering around this morning, I wondered if you could shift the entrance to the kitchen down a bit? It makes the pantry a bit smaller, but you gain a drop zone shown in yellow. (I also flipped the office door and closet as I suggested upthread, and tweaked the kids' door and vanity)

And here's a thought: turn the kitchen into an L with island, keeps traffic out of any work areas completely, and the yellow zone adds storage space. That allows the pantry in the hall to be a bit narrower for more elbow room in the hall. Oh, I also moved the laundry room door to be more convenient to the kitchen.

I kind of like this one because it allows some circulation around the yellow zone without forcing people too far into the hall or kitchen work zone, keeps the sink from overlooking the living room, gives more wall in the LR for furniture placement, hides the prep mess but doesn't close the LR off completely from the kitchen, and widens the opening from LR to dining.

Oh, consider putting a skylight on the front porch to add light but still shade it from the heat. And Annkh has a point, you could smooth out the front of the house a bit, perhpas by making the hall bath longer (allows you to put the shower behind a door, so when it's a powder room guests don't have to see the shower.) Or insetting it a bit, even with the office door. Or both. I can't read the dimensions, but maybe the master toilet can be in the space between shower and closet, it looks like you have room to shrink the shower a skosh without losing elbow room.

Have you gotten this costed out yet? I ask because with all the jigs and jogs your roof line will be complicated and it's going to be expensive to build.

I can't read your dimensions but it appears your dining room is as large as your living room area?

I know you posted your kitchen on the kitchen forum and your kitchen is definitely better than it was, but it really could be a lot better for the reasons mentioned above.

However the one thing you did ask about is your master bath. Here's a solution which eliminates an expensive and useless jut out. Yes your counter where your sinks are is smaller, but honestly, how much space do you need to give up for a vanity.

Or the master suite like this, where you still have vanity, one window for the bathroom, one for the toilet room, the shower is a bit smaller and moves toward the closet. I flipped to two closets so that the entrance isn't right next to the head of the bed. It only moves a foot or two over, but it might make a difference.

Ok I like bp's idea for the bathroom.

Additionally I noticed you wasted prime real estate with the kid's bedroom by putting the too small WIC on the outside wall. A wall that could have windows instead.

I know you've worked on this for over a year but honestly, I think there are lots of things that could be better and I also worry that when you go to price this out, you might be very shocked at how expensive it is to build.

So I tried this: I moved the whole master ensuite and hall bath forward to the same plane as the garage. This makes the hall a bit more spacious, and I gave extra length to the closets, though you could give it to the master bath instead.

For the kid's bathroom, I put the tub and toilet room where the linen closets were, and moved the closet against the DR wall. Put a solatube in tub room if you can, I don't know what the upstairs is going to be above. They make flexible tubing so the sunlight receiver doesn't have to be exactly above the space.

For the front kid's closet, remember to use the space under the stairs for extra storage, accessible from the closet or, better, from the bedroom.

(oh, I took out the storage closet doors in the garage, they drive me nuts, there always seems to be something in front of them)

I can't see dimensions. How large is bedroom 2?

I played with what bp did and moved the whole living room and master suite back so you don't have the additional jigs and jags which will create a more simple roof line and give you a larger feeling living/dining/kitchen area.

While it will give you a longer front foyer, it will also get rid of the tunnel like feel when you approach the house/front door. Now you'll be able to see the front door. I also got rid of the additional jog on the garage to create a better roofline.

I like the smoother line (I think instead of removing the bumpout I would have moved the garage out even with the bumpout, more room for bikes). I like the flow of garage hall in to foyer hall, and bedrooms into the living space. But, did the tunnel shift from outside to inside?

This doesn't quite move the LR/MBR as far back (I like a patio tucked in a bit) but maybe other flow is good?

Well, this eliminates the inner tunnel. The office bumps out a little further to make a more open foyer. I stole some space from the closet for a guest closet, but if you dn't need one (you didn't have one before) a console table would look very nice there. I flipped the front door so it opens to open space, not to a wall. Maybe add a pocket door from office to hall bath so it can also be a guest room.

I flipped the kitchen island so the DW is near convenient dish storage on the yellow zone.

Looking better and better bp. I would like to see her elevations though.

Agree cpartist and bpathome - good changes for simplicity and FLOW!

I would like to see her elevations though.

And clearer measurements. That top bedroom may need a change in closet configuration now, I just can't read the dimensions.

I can't read any of the measurements.

Looking at Cp's comment about roofline in the back, I would keep the roof straight across in the back for a nice covered portion of the patio.

• Master bedroom is 17'8" x 16'4"
• Bedroom #2 (guest bedroom/my office) is approx. 12'8" x 14'10"
• Bedroom #3 (kid's bedroom) is 15' x 14'4"
• Bedroom #4 (kid's bedroom) is 13'4" x 15'4"
• Family room is approx. 18'8" x 21'6"

Btw, beach, you mentioned you worried that your shower might be too big? Can't tell yours from the plan, but mine is 66"x30", and I love it. Spacious, big enough for a shelf/seat at one end but not too big. And when I clean the corners, I have room to move around in it lol!

i would be concerned that the kids tub room is kind of small, but by the time you move in, the toddler will be a preschooler and you don't have to be sitting right next to the tub with him any more.

Thank you for the thoughtful feedback and suggestions. I apologize for the obnoxious dimension lines and inability to read measurements. I can't remove them and am not adept enough at uploading photos on here to upload them in a more readable format.

We had worked to eliminate unnecessary jogs and roof line changes. What we left are for aesthetic purposes. We don't have elevations, yet ... still waiting ... but the exterior will be Hardi with some brick. We were going to straighten the garage but decided to keep the bumpout so it's not one giant wall of Hardi. Same for the master bath bump out - we have toyed with the idea of eliminating it, but will probably keep it for the elevation change.

We have talked with our builder about this several times and he has assured us that these are minor, easy roof line changes and didn't impact the cost significantly.

I realize it is your office, but I think Br#2 should swap the door and closet, putting the door in the hall to the master. This makes it better as a bedroom, as it's more private and closer to the bathroom, and a good office as it's still near the LR but private and, well, closer to the bathroom.

That would put the guest bedroom door almost directly across from the master bedroom door. If both doors were (inadvertently, even) open at the same time (happens often with small children barging in) things could get embarrassing. I'm thinking of my visiting parents seeing my husband in his boxers.... Not something he'd want! Also, it's probably hard to see on the plan, but there is a pocket door (which we'll probably change to a regular door) from the bedroom into the bathroom.

Have you placed imaginary furniture in the LR and then traced paths through it, to be sure it works as the walkway from office/master/foyer to kitchen/kids/dining?

Yes, it works with our furniture.

Will the kids ever be in the bathroom at the same time? Probably not. They'd probably appreciate more storage and counter space, rather than two sinks.

Yes, the children are in the bathroom at the same time every day. Not in the mornings now, but they are in the evenings. And in three years they will be getting ready in the same bathroom at the same time every single day. And they are girl/boy, so as they get older they will want their own sinks. I can just see my daughter doing her makeup or washing her face and my son trying to brush his teeth at the same time. Yikes! I know it's impossible to see on the plan (sorry), but their vanity is longer than 7 feet, so that should be plenty of space for two sinks plus counter space. It's actually longer than the one my husband and I share now with two sinks!

Has the "new and improved" kitchen been through Kitchens? I'm not a kitchen pro but I don't quite get it.

I understand everyone's concerns and can see where there are potential problems. My husband is very happy with the kitchen and hesitant to make major changes, outside of moving appliances, but I'm open if it makes sense. I appreciate the time you took to reconfigure things and definitely see how it helps traffic. But we lost our only coat closet and are not sure about how that long cabinet/counter on the right will look. Will keep pondering because it has been a sticking point.

Why can the sink in the Laundry? Where do you dump mop water and rinse the mop and soak clothes?

One of my "must haves" in our laundry is a place to fold clothes that is NOT on top of our washer and dryer (my current folding spot), so across from the W/D is a bank of cabinets and a long counter for folding plus the sink. I decided to scrap the sink for a tall pantry/cabinet for vacuum/mop/ironing board/etc. storage. I hate having that stuff just leaning against a wall. I can't have a nice, long folding counter, a sink, AND a pantry. Something had to give. So with at least six other sinks in the house, when we have stains, I just scrub them out elsewhere (what I do now, and it doesn't bother me a bit). I have never in my life used a mop with mop water/one I've had to rinse.

Trace the plan leaving out the European style dimension lines and add furniture and color. Then the flaws should be obvious.
I apologize for the dimension lines. I have a clear understanding of the plan and we have added our furniture to ensure it fits and have "walked" the routes. Other than the kitchen bottleneck and some jogs on the front of the house ... what flaws am I missing?

The kids' bedrooms have tiny closets, especially for such large rooms.
Bedroom #3's closet is 5'4" x 5'4", which I think is ok for a kid's closet. Bedroom #4's closet is 4' x 4'4", which is small, but we can't see how to make it bigger. We just don't want those "wall of closets" that I hate and that eliminate an entire wall for furniture.

The storage area in the garage - what's your plan for this? Is it just a way to use awkward space generated by the pantry?

The plan is to put Christmas decor in there so it's easy to access.

Have you gotten this costed out yet? I ask because with all the jigs and jogs your roof line will be complicated and it's going to be expensive to build.

Yes, we have. It came in a few thousand less than our budget so we added a bathroom in the bonus room. Our contractor/builder assures us that the jigs/jogs are not complicated and do not add significantly to the expense.

I can't read your dimensions but it appears your dining room is as large as your living room area?

I apologize for the crummy upload; I'm not adept at uploading photos here. The dining room is about 20'4" x 12' and the family room is about 16'3 x 21'6". It's a large dining room but it's the only one have and our table, a long oval, will be permanently expanded to seat 6, and will easily fit 8-10 when we have guests.

Well, this eliminates the inner tunnel.

Could you please explain the "inner tunnel" to me? I don't quite understand what this means.

You mentioned you worried that your shower might be too big?

I think right now it's 4'4" x 7'8"! We just don't know what to do with that space, though. We definitely want the long vanity - we have a less-than-7-foot-long vanity with two sinks now and it's just not enough (I know, I know).

By the time you move in, the toddler will be a preschooler and you don't have to be sitting right next to the tub with him any more.

We hope/plan to move in before Christmas! He'll still be 2, so we hope and pray we're in this house/a new house before he's a preschooler!!!

ALSO - in case it wasn't clear in the plan, the "porch" area in the back/off the living room and master bedroom is all screened-in porch. That's HIGH up on our must-have list!

Thanks again for the input. Lots to ponder...

Kids are so different, aren't they?! My boys are 5 years apart and are only in the bathroom at the same time if they both need to comb their hair at the same time. And at 5 years apart, their school schedules were such that their bathroom times were spread out. We have two sinks, and one bank of drawers in between. They never use the sink nearest the door (I still have to clean it, though, it gets so dusty!) and could use more drawer space for all their hair, orthodontia, and optical paraphernalia (and girls are worse, although one of my boys is in theater and so does have makeup remover stuff lol!) Actually, they have one shallow and two deep drawers. 4 shallow drawers would be much more useful. The medicine cabinet is not useful for combs and such, and the linen closet has the, well, linens, extra products, etc. All that to say, be sure you give them good drawers!

Can you share your elevations?

I guess the biggest flaw for me is the kitchen. I trust the wonderful Kitchens Forum folks (I didn't read your thread there) to help you create a fun, hardworking kitchen, but this seems to be a departure from their usual flow.

The DW doesn't seem to be convenient to anywhere the dishes will be stored, and after dinner, don't the dishes have to be scraped before going in to the DW? Where is the trash pullout? Can you get to it from the dining table while the DW door is open?

One can generate lots of dirty prep bowls and cooking pans and utensils, and it's a long walk from the cooktop to the clean-up sink. Where is the landing zone for the oven? While one person is dishing up, someone else is getting milk for the kids, and you're bumping in to each other.

Meanwhile, someone is coming home, or kids are carrying their laundry back and forth, right through the kitchen, and always walking around the island. The opening from LR to DR seems narrow, and the only other way in to the DR is through the garage hall and kitchen. Not good circulation when you have company. But it is convenient to get to the hall from the LR, since it's right there. That doesn't seem very elegant, though.

Would you consider this one change? All it does is move the right side of the house back about 4' to straighten the halls, easier to get from the master to the kitchen, the pantry hall doesn't empty into the LR, and the LR-DR connection is more open, defining the passage part of the house from the family life part of the house.

Here is the original plan without the dimension lines, in case it's helpful. Hopefully I didn't delete something important!

For the laundry room, by the time you add the broom closet you are left with 2' of countertop for folding, basically the size of the top of the dryer. Do you think you can make the laundry room a couple of feet deeper, encroaching on the front porch, so you have more folding and storage space, and more room to maneuver from side to side in front of the machines?

You might flip the master toilet and storage. Then you can move the door closer to shower. Gives the sink right there a bit more breathing room.

The "wasted space" by the master shower might not be so bad. My first thought was to build some low profile cabinetry under that window (like a makeup vanity) but I realize that's the entry to the shower. Lots of wall space available for shower hooks/rods instead!

I don't really understand the pantry location. You've thought it through and like it? Mine is on the other side of our island, and I find myself going back and forth often. Would be nicer (in my situation at least) if it were closer to the sink and stove.

Starting with a small thing: You really should reverse the flip of the front door. As it's drawn now, a person coming in the front door will be uncomfortably "sandwiched" against the wall. By simply flipping the swing, the door opens against the wall.

I like the general layout of the main rooms: Great room, kitchen, dining ... but I'm concerned about the size of the great room. You'll need a walkway between the kitchen and the great room, and the kitchen seems to suggest bar stools on the edge of the great room ... I don't think you have room for this to work comfortably -- not the kitchen and the dining room -- their size looks fine -- just the great room.

I assume you'll have a TV on the built-ins near the fireplace? If so, consider soundproofing the wall between the great room and the master bedroom. It'll cost so little to do it up front and so much to do it later.

The kitchen definitely needs work. The island is usually the main prep spot, and that doorway right behind it is horrible. It means people will walk in and crowd the person working at the island, and it takes away prime storage space near the island. It also divides your work space into two halves. Fixing the door location will help the kitchen tremendously.

You have a nice, big laundry room, but I'd make two tweaks: I'd switch to a pocket door. This door will probably be open most of the time anyway, and removing the door swing would mean you don't have to squeeze by the door as it takes up space in your work area. Second, I'd move the whole laundry set-up so it's against the front wall in one long cabinet run. Why? Because it means you could take out the clean clothes and set them directly on the cabinet for folding. As you have the room laid out now, you have to take them out and carry them across a rather long room (dodging the door). It's a small hassle, but a hassle nonetheless -- also a chance to drop things on the floor, and just a general nuisance.

The kids have very generous sized rooms, and I like the idea that they're big enough for queen-sized beds -- after all, at some point your toddler will come home with a wife, and you want to offer them a bed sized for two adults. However, the closets are modest. Good-sized closets keep kids' rooms clean. I'd consider downsizing the rooms (and the furniture) and enlarging the closets.

I also agree with the above poster who says go with a single sink for the kids. They won't use the bathroom at the same time, especially as they grow older. I have two girls who are best, best, best friends ... and they never share the bathroom. Double sinks are double the expense and double the chance for leaks. They're not worth the loss of storage.

I definitely like the idea of flipping the guest bedroom's door and the closet. As it's drawn now, the guest room opens right into the great room. Not good at all.

You have so much master bathroom space, but look at the places you'll actually stand: A person using the left-hand sink will be in the way of the toilet closet door. And why force yourself to squeeze around the edge of the shower, when you could put the door on the wider side and make it easier?

Finally, I don't see any point for the jigs and jogs all around. If your house is nicely laid out, it isn't going to be boring, even if it doesn't have all these ins and outs. They're driving up the price, and for no effect.

In closing, I think you have good flow in this plan, but so many items -- big and small -- that could be improved.

Good point on the laundry room MrsPete. Then you can keep the sink and add a separate storage locker for the mop/broom on the wall beside the door. Plus, you'd have a view while folding!

That's a good idea. And, if you could move the laundry forward by about 2.5', you could have the broom closet in the laundry as desired, and a coat closet facing the service hall, and turn the old closet into a landing pad of cabinetry and countertop, keeping the landing pad off the kitchen counters!

Mrspete said:

Finally, I don't see any point for the jigs and jogs all around. If your house is nicely laid out, it isn't going to be boring, even if it doesn't have all these ins and outs. They're driving up the price, and for no effect.

beach girl said:

We have talked with our builder about this several times and he has assured us that these are minor, easy roof line changes and didn't impact the cost significantly.

I agree with mrspete.

And of course your builder will tell you that because he makes more money from more jut outs. How do I know?

My original house had a couple of jut outs that I just couldn't avoid because of space limitations. However, I just was able to purchase more land which negated the problem of the space limitations. (I am only allowed to build on 35% of my land and my plot was only 6100 square feet.)

Well now that I'm able to straighten out the bumps, so my roof doesn't have any odd jogs, my builder actually said that it would save me money on the roof and the trusses. (He's not unhappy though since we added some more square footage.)

We had worked to eliminate unnecessary jogs and roof line changes. What we left are for aesthetic purposes.

A beautifully designed house doesn't need jogs to make it aesthetically beautiful. In fact some of the most stunning homes are fairly simple boxes or rectangles. Some of the most hideous are the builder specials sprouting up all across the country with jigs and jogs and lots of gables and peaks.

We don't have elevations, yet ... still waiting ...

A house's exterior should be designed at the same time as the interior. They both relate to one another and they relate to the land they'll be sitting on.

but the exterior will be Hardi with some brick. We were going to straighten the garage but decided to keep the bumpout so it's not one giant wall of Hardi. Same for the master bath bump out - we have toyed with the idea of eliminating it, but will probably keep it for the elevation change.

A well designed house doesn't add something just for the sake of adding it. It's like the old adding lipstick to a pig analogy.

And you can create something beautiful with hardie and brick.

With almost no extra expense you can have a mudroom and a pantry that works better. The small sink works better at the bar counter.

.

Perfect :)

Yes, I agree. Much better.

And the walkway through the kitchen makes more sense.

Brilliant. I've stopped shaking. LOL

(Maybe shorten the bar counter a skosh, for easier passage between Family and Dining Rooms.)

I hope the OP comes back to see it.

I would say, if the builder, or anyone, says extra roofline won't cost a significant amount more -- what exactly is their definition of Significant. I would not be impressed.

This maintains the general concepts from the original plan but is SO MUCH BETTER! The kitchen's main work areas are now all towards the left, leaving a traffic flow pattern that won't interrupt the cook. The pantry is larger -- always a good thing. The mudroom is improved. The laundry is larger and better laid out.

And of course your builder will tell you that because he makes more money from more jut outs. How do I know?

A beautifully designed house doesn't need jogs to make it aesthetically beautiful.

Agree with both statements. I think the trend today is towards "overdone". Here are some examples of houses with simple lines, simple exteriors:

The first two houses are simple rectangles "adorned" with a porch and gables. The third is a simple rectangle with two smaller rectangular wings. The last one is a simple rectangle, but the change in material makes one side appear "different". Whether these houses are your style or not, the point is that they're not boring in spite of their simple shape.

In contrast, here are a couple exteriors with rooms that jut out -- do you consider them nicer that the above houses? I don't -- in fact, I prefer the simplicity above. Each of these seems to have "too much going on".

Excellent examples, both the good and the bad mrspete.