"its products ALWAYS work elegantly"

I have to say, as a longtime Mac owner/user that was true once, but not so much nowadays, IMPE.

But in general, yeah - Mac OS use is more secure, much simpler, much less complex & generally less prone to glitches & problems than Windows.

I lol'd recently when I read a post saying that he/she was using their email to type up something that they wished to print, and then experienced the difficulties of trying to print only what was desired thru their browser instead of using a proper program for the job such as Wordpad. More and more of the problems that get posted here are blatantly PEBCAK, and it's hard to drum up sympathy for let alone a desire to help someone who advertises their lack of knowledge. Furthermore, the ignorance I have encountered of basic functions like copy/paste...drag n drop... and differences in file types is wondrous to behold. I know people who can't ATTACH a pic to an email, and wouldn't know what to do with such an attachment if they received one. It boggles the mind.

As for Macs being a better choice for the less knowledgeable user, I respectfully disagree....because you can't fix stupid. Compared to a PC, it may be a little harder to turn a Mac into a boat anchor but it can still be done and when you've done it what you have is a more expensive boat anchor.

Learned something new: PEBCAK = operator malfunction = D

But I am more forgiving of the less savvy among us, since I have the benefit of early education in scientific methods & a computer geek for a son, who has patiently shared his knowledge w/ me & taught me how to (mostly) figure stuff out myself. Not everyone has those!

I have a MacBook Pro, an Ipad, Win 7, 8.1, and 10 laptops, a Win 10 tablet, and several Android tablets. I agree that "Compared to a PC, it may be a little harder to turn a Mac into a boat
anchor but it can still be done and when you've done it what you have is
a more expensive boat anchor." You Do have to learn the operating systems, otherwise you are often lost. Describing the operating systems as intuitive is ridiculous; they aren't. Try saving a web page in the Apple OS (which seems to allow only taking a screenshot). Try having several pc laptops running Win 8.1 and 10 and wanting different desktop wallpaper on each one - a hassle. Live through having several Android devices usefulness ruined, or bricked, by OS updates. None of the operating systems are perfect. I think the best operating system for a new user is an android phone or tablet, mainly because there's always someone nearby whose had the same problem you are having now...and the devices are generally much less expensive than Apple or Windows....

FWIW, saving a webpage on a Mac isn't too hard @ all. Control+click, then select "Save As..." from the pop-up menu - or select "Print", then select "Open PDF in Preview" & save the PDF file.

Thinking the prob for most folks is they don't take the time to read instructions/manuals - or use the 'Help' menu...?

Part of the point I was trying to make is the Mac doesn't doesn't save the web page as html. Doing control click then save as gives you a screen shot. Or you save it as a pdf. It's not intuitive. On my mac it doesn't even save the web address. The pdf only shows what would have otherwise have been a screen shot....

Does this save it as HTML,

Select Save As… from the File menu. Select “Page Source” as the Format. Click Save.

As with azinoh, I too am beginning to find I don't want to respond to questions where it appears the user has played a role in creating the problem. As with the situation I cited, there can be embedded feelings of "I don't do it that way" or obstinance and a reluctance to change habits that can become obstacles to solutions. There are many helpful contributors here who also seem to back off from such situations.

That was part of what I was thinking of in starting this thread - offer a broad suggestion to those who find themselves with recurring problems.

This forum is meant for the discussion of personal computers, including
recommendations, common problems and solutions, how to get even with the
people who wrote the software, etc.

FYI...read the introduction to this forum...at the top of the page...and quoted here. This little "room" is meant to be a place for help. Not an open forum to criticize those in need. I'm not faulting you Snidely. I think your original post and intentions are good but I, also, think it opened the door for other not so well intentioned comments. Whether Apple would solve the problems of those feeling a bit challenged with their PC [ or not] is not our concern. If those of us who participate here from time-to-time elect to do so...it should always be in a noncritical, helpful manner. Remember...we were all newbies once.

@ haldd - begging to differ, but on my iMac, OSX 10.11.3, chrome browser, webpage is saved as .html & I have the choice of 'Webpage, Complete', or 'Webpage, HTML Only'....

Are you on a phone or tablet, perhaps?

Understanding that people have different experience levels and learning styles is very important when helping with computer issues.

Back when I was a little kid and using our Commodore 64 or Amiga computers at home, none of my friends had computers at home. We were just starting to get computers (Apples) at school, but the teachers treated them like shrines and barely let the kids use them at all. In school they were teaching us memorized steps to accomplish tasks on the computers, for fear we would break something. At home with our computer nerd dad we were free to experiment on our own and get really comfortable with computers from an early age.

For me the best way to learn tech things and be comfortable with them is to explore. I like to at least look through all the manuals, menus, and settings when I get something new. A lot of people have that fear of breaking something so ingrained in them, that they just do the same safe memorized steps and don't ever pick up on different ways of doing things. They could have been using computers for years and not know how to do some things that seem very basic to other people.

It used to be that the only people that had computers at home were the tech enthusiast nerdy types. Now, everyone and their dog has some form of computer. What seems so intuitive to the tech enthusiast developers and users, may not be so intuitive to other people. Having that idea in the back of your head while helping others will greatly increase patience levels.

CarolB - I was referring to use of Safari, not Chrome. My MacBook Pro in Safari doesn't give any options for what file format to save things in. The difference may be that you're using Chrome...

"It's pretty much human nature to make mistakes. We don't like it, but we do it. Computers are pretty complicated, learning them takes time."

Yes, we all make mistakes but that has nothing to do with this conversation. I think you've missed the nuance of my suggestion. The complications of a PC can and should remain invisible to the user. PCs are to be used, not learned. Macs are easier to use. It's nothing more than that.

anne, I offered my suggestion with both frustrated users and frustrated helpers in mind. For those people who seem to be accident prone, by experiencing recurring problems that others avoid or take in stride, what they do and how they do it could be at the source of the problems. It may be for them the solution is to try something very different rather than continue in the same old patterns.

For those having problems with a PC, you can buy and fully equip a basic but very capable Mac Mini (for which display, keyboard, and mouse need to be added separately) for the same or less money than many pay for the equivalent desktop Windows PC. If you want a laptop, get a Chromebook, it's cheaper than any Windows laptop.

There are a lot of abstract concepts involved. I worked for an ISP for 8.5 years, found it helpful with "newbies" to make analogies, such as hard drives to filing cabinets and e-mail to post offices. E-mail trips-up a lot of people, there are many ways to configure it between web access vs. a client program and POP3 vs. IMAP.

Even experienced users know only what they know and can have trouble with new platforms. I have very little experience with Mac products. We had only PCs in the office (my first home computer was an Atari 800). A few customers at the time had iMacs. I could tell iMac customers over the phone what parameters to enter for a setup but not what to click to find where to make the entries. It was a little better when one came in as I had hands-on access to poke around to find what I needed but did not find the interface to be intuitive as it was touted.

I understand your motive, Snidely. I'm not faulting it or you. I'm simply adding that people come here with a problem that they want help solving. Not for a recommendation that they scrap that particular system and adopt something easier. They want to make the system they have work...and work right.

Yo many eons ago when I became enamored with computers/PCs...there wasn't anything or anybody that could have deterred me from learning what makes it all tick. If it meant that I came here for assistance in my quest...so be it. Sometimes just a different word or hint is all that's necessary to send a user on the right path. Personally...I'm a reader of manuals and anything that will better educate me. But I may not be the norm. I'm blessed to have an analytical mind...along with an insatiable curiosity. Not only did I want to make it run to my satisfaction...I wanted to know how to take it apart and put it back together again.

After all these years...have I succeeded? Sorta! LOL IMO...I'm about 90% there...but there's always something new that grabs my attention or that needs more investigation to work the way it should. There's always a new puzzle. I still read everything that I have the time...and the actual vision capabilities...to read. And...when I do have the time...I come visit here to learn more and/or assist. I've learned that there's never just one answer to any PC question. What might work one time may not work the next time. It's a constantly evolving world. And...I give massive credit to those who are brave enough to come here and ask their questions. As well as to those who volunteer their time to assist. None of us...no matter how talented...should ever discourage positive participation here.

I agree with you Snidely. I have had Mac users tell me this. Along with not wanting Microsoft and yet buying it, I spent 10 hours yesterday with level 1 help desk. I had a problem with Outlook365 and they all want a shot at trying to fix it. Their supervisors won't let them send me to 2nd tier where I have had two outstanding people from the Philippines help fix up the mess the level one gave me a month ago. Hence again I lost my calendars and have mail problems. The level 2 just answered the phone luckily. It's very sad. I too have an I{ad and iPhone. Yes, they just work. Thank you for a very agreeable argument to get out of Microsoft if you can,

Mac vs PC?? It's just like Ford vs Dodge trucks, and round vs square pizzas. No resolution regardless of how much dialog.

As to PEBCAK, how many had to Google it and will admit it? I personally had seen it before and remembered the intent of the acronym, but forgot the total definition. So I did.

My position still stands, "Self Help First". It's the best learning tool there is.

DA

I was a DOS guy when the MAC was released. $1k DOS vs $2k for a MAC.

The cost mattered to most companies, but marketing often determined which platform a company would adopt.

DA, based on your post, I don't think you have any experience.

a Mac vs pc argument is 3-4 years late. For the home user, tablets.

the people who are at work, and are supposed to be working; iOS has less virus problems.

There also is a learning curve expected from any of us. I do research but need a helping start with new Windows and Outlook. When I worked at a big office with IT help and others around me I learned by asking and got to a confident point. Being at home and keeping up by myself or with Comcast or Microsoft is a very bad way of learning. I have so much today that is wrong with my computer after working with Microsoft. I have never had a virus with my iPad or phone.

Jim Mat you missed my point. Some disputes are never settled.

I use a Mac when I am out-of-state visiting my son. Other than that I use a PC. In the matter itself I have no preference or take a side. However, for one to be aware of the the PC vs Mac clash and its inability to resolve all one has to do is be able to read.

DA

Snidely is aptly named as one can see on a number of forums. Here others have joined in with sharp remarks and criticism. Although I have computer problems I wouldn't venture asking for help here as my life does not need the chastisement that could be forthcoming. Get over it you who know it all. Come down off your high horses and take another look at yourselves - from our viewpoint.

He usually does impart good information, even if it sometimes stings in the delivery. (Spoken from one with experience.)

Pink, those here offering advice do so on their own time. As discussed in another thread, many seeking advice don't read suggestions closely or cling to their own notions of how something should operate or how they insist on using available tools and software. And may do so with closed minds, a frustration for those trying to problem solve from a distance

I think advice is offered in a friendly way. Everyone is welcome to ignore what doesn't interest them.

I am far from a computer tech but have used one since windows 3.1. I am a PC/Android gal and seldom have trouble. I am 52 and at this stage Mac does not interest me and I wouldn't want to buy all my apps again. Mary

I stand by my post no matter how many excuses are offered. "Friendly" ?????

I have come to enjoy Snidely’s remarks, agreeable or not. They liven up an otherwise dull existence. They seldom fail to elicit entertaining responses. They often offer a stimulating difference of opinion against which your own may be measured. Someone who has the temerity to name themselves so appropriately has got to be appreciated.

And last but not least he broke me of my “hillbilly aw shucks” style of writing - a definite plus. Thank you, Snidely.

I agree with Snidely, it is easier for a novice user to use a MAC than a window PC.

MAC OS system and interfaces implemented/used by its applications are a lot more elegant, efficient and user friendly. MAC's hardware and software are less "open" than Window's, therefore, it has a lot less virus introduced by applications and less compatibility issues between OS and Applications. I like the 'almost' seamless integration among all the apple products/devices.

In spite of having an IT division to support, we frequently have PC issues at work. I purchased my first MAC for home use in the summer of 2014, so far I have encountered zero problem.

"At home with our computer nerd dad we were free to experiment on our own and get really comfortable with computers from an early age". YOU may not remember how much your parents had to pay to clean up your computers.

While our children grew up we also highly encouraged them to have "hands on" experience. We are computer nerd parents working in Engineering, and with Computer Science degree, yet we still paid dearly to have 'professional' to clean up our children's virus infested Window PCs many times.

For MAC new users, Apple's one year support program is a great deal. During one year, the new user could use it as many times as possible by attending trainings, group learning sessions and phone in questions to fully learn the system. The support is many times better than the technical support provided by any PC sellers.

azmom, as kids we never really managed to break anything computer wise. It probably helped immensely that we didn't have internet until we were in our teens. Plus at that point it was just dial-up, which made it a lot harder to get into too much trouble :) You can do a lot more damage nowadays with broadband speeds and a home network of devices. But, that being said no one in our family to this day has had to have a computer fixed by a pro. We all manage to keep them in pretty good condition and get new computers or parts when the hardware can't keep up with new software. I do know plenty of people that seem to constantly have their computers in "the shop" or get a new one every year or two because it has gotten "so slow". I've seen the massive amount of viruses and malware that was on them. I don't have much experience with Macs recently, but if they make it harder to hose them up in that way then perhaps it is the way to go for many people... if they can afford them.

My comment about learning computers better by exploring was mainly directed at azinoh's comments about being frustrated that many people still don't know how to do the simplest things.

No temerity involved. Snidely Whiplash is a favorite cartoon character from my childhood. No message involved. If you find it distracting, read it as Bugs Bunny

molanic, Your parents were/are very lucky. ;-). Ours were daredevils in high tech area when they were young.

The junior was 14 when he put together a PC for the sister when she left home for college. At 16, he started a web business with his 17 years old friends...when he was 20....

Our house rules were if they broke into any secure area/organizations, or like their friends trying to get "free services" such as internet, cell phone services...etc. and got caught for anything illegal or immoral, they would be on their own. Good thing we never received a phone call during those years.