Need suggestions for better work zones- going to architect soon!

8 years ago

Hello,

I've posted here before both recently and 6 years ago when we built our last house. I'm so thankful and appreciative for the advice, time and help that so many of you give. How fortunate we/I am to have this community.

We are getting towards the final design plan and our builder is needing some basic kitchen design for getting bids. I can finalize it later but would love help for the basic layout. I've read about work zones and have spent months on here trying to learn and gather information. Tonight, I re-read the Ice-Water-Stone-Fire post (which had me smiling) and my layout doesn't fit that at all. It might work for some of the work zones but has a lot of crossing back and forth from sink to fridge and pantry. I'd like to prevent that if possible.

I'm sorry for the blurry photo and will try to get something better posted but I'm hoping you can get an idea of the space so I can begin.

Stats: family of 4 - DH and I plus 23 and 15 yr old with everyone enjoying cooking. DH and I can cook anything from an 8 course French dinner to some killer ribs. I bake bread and other things about twice a month. We entertain and may have anywhere from 2 - 14 friends over. The kitchen can be the center attraction and gathering place.

This will be a new build so we have a blank slate. We have a moderate budget (not modest but must be conservative as well)

The house will face west (with shade) but has a beautiful water view of the lake across the street. We are in the country on just under an acre of land.

Current plan: sink under the window that faces the lake

dual fuel range (would love 36 inch but ??)

coffee/tea bar with wine fridge under that on pantry wall

island 4x6 (including over hang)

french door fridge

mostly drawers for lower storage

real vent hood

aisles are about 4 feet

Wants and would likes: wall oven and/or 36 inch gas 5 burner range (cost? space?)

prep sink in island

Currently, the kitchen is 12 feet wide by 14 feet long.

Questions:

1. Would the screen porch be better placed if it were off the dining area instead of the living area? We have it for DH and DD who are deathly allergic to wasps. Coming off the living room allows additional space to feel like we have more living/entertainment space but would it be better to come off the dining room?

2. Where to place the microwave?

3. What will be the best place for DW and trash pullout? I prefer a left to right - trash - sink - DW but will it be better to have DW with a dish drawers across from it on the island and the trash to the left of the sink which would place it closer to range and prep space on counters near cooking area?

4. What can be done to improve work flow and traffic pattern of back and forth?

I'm willl add more questions but this is a good start.

The exterior door leads to a side porch or grilling porch and the interior door goes into the office and home school room. The lot is narrow and rectangular with the narrow end facing the lake.

NOTE: THE PIANO IS NOT THIS BIG... it fits very well into the space.

Floor Plans · More Info

I'm open to any suggestions and ideas. PLEASE HELP!!!

Thank you so much,

Sunny

Featured Answer

mbaldauf6112
Original Author

8 years ago

Sena,

I forgot to tell you that I have fond memories of a Great Aunt that I adored whose name was Sena. One of the kindest people I've ever met.

Thank you for the suggestions, as well. We like the idea of turning the island. Seems to flow better.

Sunny

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Comments (16)

sena01
8 years ago
I come up with a few ideas. I can't really read the dimensions, so I'm not sure if they can work or not.

Extended the screened porch a little towards the DR, left 2 windows on the LR side but have sliding doors to the porch.

Resized the master WIC and moved the piano next to the stairs (I lost the curve while coping and pasting, but since you say the piano is smaller, maybe the shape of the stairs wouldn't be affected).

In the kitchen I moved the pantry to the right and turned the island 90 degrees.

Hope these may spark some ideas.
funkycamper
8 years ago
I think I remember the prior discussions about your new build. How about this? (And sorry I mutated your piano.)

All the traffic through the kitchen would drive me batty. Removing the door to the grilling porch and flipping the door to the home-school room and pantry eliminates that issue. (More on grilling access later.)

This gives you separate prep/cook and clean-up areas. Much more convenient for multiple workers in the kitchen. You could prep on the island and in the stretch between clean-up sink and range. I would get a larger sink for the clean-up zone, probably 36", so that someone can clean and still be able to share the sink space with someone needing access for prepping.

For double-ovens, I'd just get a double-oven range. Someone else might come on here and come up with a great place to put wall ovens but I'm not seeing it myself. I think they would cut up your space too much.

Now, onto the doors/windows to porches. If the view to the lake is on that side of the house, why limit the windows to such small of views? I would put a wall of windows in both the dining and living rooms. This window wall could be sliders. Or French doors that open wide (but then you must have space for the doors to be open without knocking furniture and I doubt you have that much room). Or it could be a single French door with windows that match the size of the window in the French door, all framed together in a row. But, really, get as much light and views to the lake as possible.

I don't think it would be that big of a deal for the person grilling to walk out the door in the dining room to the covered porch and around to the grilling porch. OK, if you grill every single day, that might be a hassle. But if you're like most of us and only do it in the warmer months, or occasionally year-round, it should be OK, imho.

To make it easier for the grill person to pass food back-and-forth from the kitchen, and to talk with people inside, you could do a couple of different things. I would consider eliminating the upper cabinets between range and fridge and putting in a window there that opens so food could be passed through and you could visit. You could even make it intentional for grilling by doing a window to counter height with a wide sill outside giving a small counter for plates to sit on. I'd post a photo but my Houzz Photo button doesn't seem to be working. Will try later.

If you don't think you can spare that upper, you could put in a window backsplash that opens. Sorry that I can't post any of my saved photos in my Houzz Ideabooks that illustrate this right now.

Hope this helps. I know it would help better if I could show you photos of what I'm talking about.
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Ah! Yes, I thought you meant range + 2 other ovens! That's better b/c now you have another 30" of storage and can add it to the 15" for 45" to be divvied up as needed (e.g., 24" + 21"). New layout - with tweaks: . Zone Map: . Regarding locating the refrigerator & pantry together - I would rather have the refrigerator convenient to the Prep & Cooking Zones than put them together just for the sake of putting away groceries. How often do you bring in large amounts of groceries to put away? How often do you need to use the refrigerator while prepping and cooking? If you're like most of us, you use the refrigerator while prepping & cooking far more often than you're bringing in large amounts of groceries. You can easily put the grocery bags for the refrigerator on the island and when you're done bringing the bags into the house, go to first the refrigerator and then the pantry to put the items away. No extra carrying of any bags. Why did I move the refrigerator? (1) To make it convenient to the Prep & Cooking Zones (2) Minimize zone-crossing (crossing through the Cleanup Zone to go b/w the refrigerator and Prep/Cooking Zones, for example) (3) To make it convenient to get to the refrigerator from the Dining Room, Screened Porch, Living Room, and Family Room (4) To allow everyone to access the refrigerator without getting in each others' way. It's even better now with the new information - see Layout #2. There is some overlap, but I think the aisles are wide enough that it won't be much of an issue. Note that I adjusted the aisle widths a bit. Visual of paths of refrigerator access: . To contrast the original refrigerator location: Notice the crisscrossing of the paths b/w the refrigerator and primary work zones. In particular, crossing through the Cleanup Zone repeatedly b/w the refrigerator and Prep and Cooking Zones. In addition, the island is a barrier b/w the island Prep Zone and the refrigerator. Another thing to look at is the very real possibility that people going to/from the LR and Screened Porch may be tempted to cut through the Kitchen if they think it will be a shorter path (human beings like the shortest distance!) It's represented by the green broken line below.
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mbaldauf6112
Original Author
8 years ago
Funky Camper, thank you so very much for your time and suggestions! We've been in Houston for eye appointments for DH and are just home to talk this over. He's legally blind (really has very significant vision loss but thankfully has some sight). We just discussed these ideas and yes it's great for new ideas. With your suggestions we think we will remove the side door which will keep traffic from going in and out with the added bonus of saving some money. If we grill we will most likely use the large porch or can walk to the side. That would work just fine. We will appreciate the kitchen space more than another porch!

We really like being about to move the pantry down if the door is gone. Adios to the door! Also, like the island being turned this way. Much better! What if we put the coffee bar next to the pantry and moved the school room/office door down further? Would that work?

We loved our previous 3/4 split Siligranit sink which was 32 inches and that's what we plan on in this house. We prefer the 3/4 split so I can wash in one side and rinse in the other. Hopefully that will be enough clean-up sink space.

I thought about moving the piano to the living area side but couldn't figure out how. Now, I wish I'd worked something out like what you came up with. I'm going to check with the architect but it might be too costly to make those type of changes to the plan at this point because it would mean moving the stairs and a total re-do of the second floor if we moved the stairs. The master closet is 7 feet wide and the piano is just over 5 feet wide so I'd have to VERY thin to fit in the one foot space between! LOL So, we'd have to do a lot of revamping. Might still work though.

What about fridge placement in relation to the sink? Would it be better to move the fridge to the left of the sink? Then have the DW, sink and trash? Trash would be close to prep and cooking/range. The only thing I wouldn't like is that would be the first thing seen as you walk in yet it might be a good trade-off.

I love the idea of the larger windows. Our builder prefers them separated for strength but DH and I both like more viewing area.

If we had our ideal set up we'd put 2 sets of French doors but as you said I don't know if we'd have enough space and DH said no sliders. We DO like the idea of a French door with windows to 'match'.

I'm hoping this is a better photo. Also, I see the fridge is labeled 'oven' so please take note that the fridge will be in the place where it says oven.

For over the sink I really want to do something similar to the photo below. (Giving credit to this amazing, inspiration photo from 2 little fishies kitchen)! I've seen this configuration before and wanted it even before I saw hers. Now that I've seen hers, I'm stuck on this! She might wake up and see me sitting outside one morning, not stalking, just admiring! :) Mine wouldn't have to be this deep or even this large but something similar. I was told that I wouldn't have room for any uppers but I "THINK" I could have one towards the DR end of the counter/cabinet run and one to the left of the sink. What do you think? I said I wouldn't want it bumped out but GOSH I LOVE THIS!

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Thank you again for taking the time to help me and for the great ideas!

Sunny
mbaldauf6112
Original Author
8 years ago
Mamagoose and others,

I remembered you responded to my previous post with the very bad photo so I'm hoping you will find this newer thread. You asked why I like the DW of the right and it's just a simple thing I find easier but our last house had DW on the left and I am still alive!!! LOL When really thinking about it I agree it seems better to keep it as is so the trash is closer to the prep area. With 4 feet of isle there will be room for someone to pass behind me if I'm at the sink or they can go around the island. I just want to make sure I have it correct. What about the fridge?? I actually have laid awake worrying about it's location!

Looking forward to more help. THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!!

Sunny
funkycamper
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I'm so glad you like my suggestions. I really do think losing that traffic through the kitchen gives you a much more functional kitchen and will help restrict action in work zones.

I think switching the coffee bar and school/office door is actually a better idea than what I gave you.

If you love the split silgranit, I'm sure it will be fine. However, so many folks here have written about how much they prefer single sinks now that they made the switch, I think it would be a good idea for you to read the pros and cons before making a final decision. You can do a search for the umpteen million discussions here about that issue to get more input before deciding.

I'm a bit confused on the issue with the piano space. Maybe you could share a photo of just that section of the floorplan for more suggestions about that.

I'm not sure I understand your question about the fridge. Aren't you taking my suggestion of putting in a prep sink on the island? With the to the right of the range, while looking at the range, you have a perfect work triangle. There is absolutely no reason in the world to put the fridge to the left of the clean-up sink. This puts it too far from the prep sink and cooktop and means you have to cross over the clean-up zone to get to it. It makes your kitchen less functional.

Here's the plan I gave you with the zones. Maybe that will more clearly help you understand how best to use the kitchen? And a pink fridge where you asked about having a fridge indicating what a bad location it is.

OK, my computer is acting clunky and not allowing me to load a photo. I'll reboot and continue this discussion in another post.

ETA: I've gotta run so I'm out of time to post the photo. And I also have an idea that would allow you to hide your fridge from the front door while keeping things functional. I'll come back later today or tonight and post more stuff that I hope will be helpful.
sena01
8 years ago
I hope I understood you correctly regarding pantry/coffee station/office door and the new fridge location.

I came up with this, using abt. 2' from the DR side for the fridge, because I thought you'd need some cabs for plates/silverware etc. next to the DW.

Although, fridge would block some light and make the cleanup zone a bit closed in, if all 4 of you cook at the same time this may be a good location for the fridge.

I can't tell the new length of the kitchen when the pantry is moved, but I think you'll probably need to have a reach in pantry and maybe shallow cabs for the coffee station if you prefer to have the island parallel to the range counter.

Sorry to hear about your husband's eye problem, hope his sight can improve.
funkycamper
8 years ago
OK, I'm back. Here's how function flows with the plan I laid out. (Picture should get bigger if clicked on).

I have to respectfully disagree with Sena. The fridge next to the DW means that prep person needs to walk through clean-up area or the long way around the island to get food from it. Either way, this is not convenient.

I do, however, like how she did the coffee bar and pantry.

I also understand about not wanting the fridge to dominating in your view from the living room and front door.

How about this? The pantry is a bit bigger but some of it is given up to the fridge being inset. I think you actually have the same pantry storage but now your fridge isn't so dominant in your view from the living spaces but still accessible for drinks and snacks.

You could also lay the pantry cabs and coffee bar out like Sena did it but make the reach-in pantry a bit less wide and make the counter for the shallow counter deeper. And then inset the fridge about where she has the words "shallow cabs".

In both of the above plans with the fridge inset, you need have proper space for the fridge doors to swing open fully.
mbaldauf61
8 years ago
Sorry it's taken me forever to respond. Sometimes life gets in my way of doing what I want.

I agree that I don't want the fridge on the sink wall. I like both of the suggestions you've given me.

Thank you both for your input! In Sena's version I like that the pantry is closer and more accessible but funkycamper, I like where the fridge is on your design. In my previous kitchen I didn't have much food storage in my cabinets so everything other than spices and things like oils, and vinegars were in the pantry. With this design I have enough cabinets that most food items would be in the upper cabinets and the pantry could be used more for storage of things like crock pot, large serving items and seldom used food. Hmmm, I will definitely give this some thought.

Here's something I've come up with, also. What if I move the main sink to the island and keep the window where it is now? It would keep the work areas closer together. Work at the sink, turn and directly behind me is the stove. Wouldn't have to add a prep sink which DH would like since it would save money. I'd be able to see what's going on in the living area PLUS have views outside. Corner pantry but allow room for the fridge to open. I could add a small window in the pantry up high so as not to take up shelving space but it would add some light through the glass pantry door.

What do you think of this option? It's simpler that's for sure! I could add narrow non operational windows on either side of the range, too.

OK.. so now what?? :)

Thank again for the help.

Sunny
mbaldauf61
8 years ago
I'm hoping someone can give me feedback on the above suggestions and layouts. Do you think the simpler plan would be more efficient or possibly one suggested by some of the other GW members?

I had a corner pantry in my previous kitchen and liked it. I see in this kitchen I'd have more cabinets for storing food items so the pantry could be used primarily for large items I don't use as often such as cake holders, chip and dip bowls, crock pots, etc.

I'm open to suggestions if someone can help me.

Thank you all so much for your time and help.

Sunny
just_janni
8 years ago
I'd go with Funky's layout or Sena's and here's why:

I know you think that the other plans are complex- but make yourself a meal... assuming that you may have some help in clean up...

It's great to have a good tight work triangle, but as you are moving from the prep area to the cooking area, you have someone else putting away some of the prep bowl and tools and you are both going to be smashing into each other at the island sink - the only sink - and then - you'll have the dishwasher open when you are moving back and forth between sink and cooktop - or - even cooktop to fridge to add some cream to that soup, etc.

Moving a clean up area to the side puts things out of the way. It removed dirty dishes off the island (nicer for guests) still allows you to interact with guests at the prep space, and eliminates tripping risks and bottlenecks / collisions when you are handling hot food.

And take it from me - the corner pantry will be a messy bane of your existence. crap in that back corner will be lost forever... there's no way to neatly display your goods and it's TERRIBLE to try to reach the back corner up around armpit level.
funkycamper
8 years ago
I agree with everything jannicone said. I would never give up a functional prep/cook triangle with a separate clean-up area if I had any choice in the matter. And your island isn't going to be long enough to have a decent sized prep area on one side and clean-up on the other. There's not enough counter on either side with a big sink in the middle to have people working on each side doing different tasks. I would dislike working in this plan.

Compare the work zones in the plans Sena and I gave you and then compare them to this:

See how crowded it is? And how everybody would be stepping on each other?
mbaldauf61
8 years ago
I see now that this wouldn't work. I agree with you completely. Thank you for 'showing' me!

I like all of the versions you've provided. I love the amount of space in funky campers 2nd option but feel the pantry will be too far away and make it less convenient. if we go with funky campers other version will there be enough counter space? I like that Sena's and the first one from funky camper seem more efficient.

I can locate the door to the school room around the corner on a wall next to the piano. This would help incorporate that room into the main house better and allow me to utilize that wall space for more kitchen space.

Before you shoot me for this idea, I have a friend who has a large private lake and her sink is in a corner with large windows. I LOVE her corner sink. This is an idea.

Could I do something similar to this?? I think it would be beautiful!

I'm heading out to meet the builder. Will check back later tonight.

Thank you again for your help and advice.

Sunny
funkycamper
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
The corner sink looks beautiful. But, be aware that it will also be less functional. Sinks in corners don't allow more than two people to use it at the same time. There's just not enough space for two to stand there and share it. Also, it brings your clean-up sink closer into the prep and cook zones making it more difficult to use the right side of the sink and the counter between sink and range as a secondary prep area. The person standing there will start crowding into the cook's space.

If you keep your sink around the corner, you have a 4-person kitchen. One prepping on island, one cooking, one doing clean-up, and another doing additional prep or baking on the right side of the clean-up sink.

If you move your sink to the corner, you're creating a 3-person kitchen.

I fully support tons of windows whenever possible in any kitchen. But especially when you have a nice view of a lake! You could always have large windows on both walls that meet in the corner, giving you great views. But that doesn't mean your sink has to be there.

All the below look great, have fantastic views to outside and none have a corner sink.

Ignore the bad DW placement, lol
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mbaldauf61
8 years ago
I'm finally back! We actually changed the floor plan from 1 1/2 story to a single story which I'm happy about.

Funky camper- LOVE those pics. What lovely windows and views!

We got this new plan 2 days ago and see several things we want to change then hopefully we can move forward.

Changes:
1. Move the entrance of the school room/office to the long blank wall around the corner.
2. Move the DW to the other side of the sink so trash can be to the left of the sink and closer to prep area.
3. Add 2 narrow windows - one on each side of the range. (We didn't care for the look of that side of the house exterior and it's the side that will be seen when driving past the house. We feel this will not only add light but 'up' the exterior look.)
After looking at the entry to the schoolroom off the kitchen we think it's better to move the door/entry to the long blank wall around the corner from the kitchen and put the closet where the door was. This will do several things:
1. closer to rest room
2. can be classified as a bedroom for re-sale
1. better layout and more space in school by removing the jutted out closet
4. some wall space in kitchen to hang cute things!!! :)
1. The school room can get messy if we are doing projects so with the door around the corner the mess won't bother me as much
6. I did not like the main bath layout as the architect had it so this simplifies it and makes it like our previous bath which we really liked.

How is this?? Does it seem better and more functional?

Here's the kitchen layout (remember we will add 2 narrow windows on range wall and change DW location)

Questions:

1. Should the main sink move down a little towards the "L" corner and the windows be placed closer together to have an upper at the end next to the coffee bar?

2. It seems a LONG way from the sink to the fridge. Will I get used to this since I'll have a prep sink?

3. Would you put a wall oven and a smaller pantry or leave as is and have range/oven in one unit? I'm really loving the pantry!! DH is considering an induction but we would need to look at the new induction range/oven.

4. Does this seem to work??

The appliance garage will have an actual cabinet door to house my large mixer and food processor. Probably one or 2 shelves about that then open shelving above that.

We think this layout will work but are there any small things that you all think could be changed or made better?

Getting closer!

Sunny
sena01
8 years ago
Agree that the DW should go to the other side of the sink. Most prefer trash near the prep sink, so maybe it can be better to have it at the end of the island across the sink/DW.

Hard to say anything w/o dimensions, but island seats on the sides seem they'd block the entry to the kitchen. Looks like fridge door won't open pass 90 degrees so you may have difficulty in using the drawers of the fridge. Island looks too small, I think prep sink should at least be 18" so that doesn't leave much for prep.