@mamapinky0, In the case of a top loader.. your taking a compound and diluting it significantly into 10/15 gallons of water, versus just 3/7 gallons in a front loading machine. The water has more active cleaning solution, making it stronger and more concentrated, allowing for better cleaning.

Honestly.. to achieve the same levels of concentration in a top loading machine, you'd need quite a bit of detergent. But... that doesn't matter, because a top loader agitates clothing, helping to remove soil.

Both types of machines, will clean clothes to a very good level. However.. I do believe the more concentrated cleaning solution will clean better, as well as preserve fabric life from reduced friction. :)

I tried this detergent years ago. I thought it was ok, but not as good as my then beloved Seventh Generation Ultra Plus with four enzymes. Now I'm really loving the Whole Foods exclusive geranium flavor of Ecos with enzymes.

And.. I've noticed articles from Consumer Union/Reports.. mentioning some FL's clean better than others, but what they don't mention is how well the machines take care of textiles overtime.

You could have the cleanest laundry in the world, but that won't matter.. if your clothes are ripped or excessively worn to the point of being unwearable, would it??

I truly believe that Miele machines are the solid point between Fabric Care & Cleaning, and unless they drastically change.. I'll always believe that.

Mitch, I know Miele makes some fantastic appliances. I bought a Miele Jazz six months ago and absolutely LOVE it! I'd love me a Miele dishwasher and Little Giant too.

Greeny - glad you are enjoying the Jazz! I just bought that for mom as a Christmas present. I've had a Delphi canister for almost 10 years and it still looks and works like new. I have neighbors who borrow it when their (much newer) vacuums aren't doing the job. I also have a Futura Crystal DW that we bought this fall. Love it. I think one of the things I really admire about Miele is that even their entry/lower-end models are fantastic.

Alex, wow what a nice gift for your mom! I assume you live in the Chicago area? Is Abt your favorite place to shop for appliances?

I have used this detergent a few times, and still have a huge bottle in my storage. I got really good results from it, and it smells really nice too. I used it only mostly colored loads though, I am not sure how it would fare on a dirty whites load.

Mich if your adding 2 T or so detergent to 3-7 gal water vs adding 1/2cup or more into 10-15 gal water...there's a concentrated solution in both. Anything above or beyond that goes into the FL vs TL debate..and we all know I won't debate that issue as I haven't used a FL.

Just like a coffee...1T for 1cup..perfect...1/2 cup for 12 cups...perfect.

This is why no TL can clean a full load of clothes using one pod/pac...its too diluted to do any good. oh you may think the clothes are clean because just washing in wa ter is going to remove some muck, but to get deep down clean...one pod in all that water just ain't gonna give anyone using a TL really clean. I have to use at least 2 and usually 3 before my water has enough condition to clean. Which is why pods are not cost effective for TL users. But they are fun. LOL.

Larsi..I am pumped to try the Clorox Green Works, I know in the past you really liked this stuff until suds became an issue.

Alex...you can bet I'm gonna play with this stuff LOL... think I'll grab another old sheet from the shed and see what happens. I will probably try a bit of Sears powder, some Green Works, STPP, and pure Sodium percarbonate. ..after a cool prewash to loosen things up a bit. I'm expecting magic!

Mitch - I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down regarding "any detergent will clean clothes," and I agree that simply sloshing around in warm water with mechanical agitation will do a great deal. But I've definitely used "good" and "bad," of both liquid and powder. This stuff is solidly in the "good" camp while, for example, the SG 4x concentrate liquid is solidy "bad," in my experience, although I did use it for a long time. You're smart to bring up the gentleness. I'm convinced that my Samsung FL is not gentle on clothing. There's another thread brewing about mounting a Samsung dryer over a washer of a different brand. If a practical solution is discovered, you can bet I will dump this machine!

Greeny - thank you! My mom has COPD and I couldn't believe how much dust she was putting back into the air using her Hoover Wind Tunnel. In the mid 90s she bought a really nice Kirby with good filtration. When it stopped working, I don't know why she didn't just have it repaired. That thing was a beast and worked really well. Anyway, she now has a lovely, mustard-yellow Miele Jazz :) If I had more carpet, I would have the same thing. And, ashamed to admit it, but I have never been inside Abt. I bought my Miele DW there (via phone sales), but not the vacuum. In Chicago we have a terrific Miele/Dyson/Electrolux dealer "Best Vacuum," which also has a significant online presence. If you buy in-store, instead of online with free overnight shipping, they give you a 10% discount. This isn't advertised anywhere as I'm sure it's entirely against their retailer agreements, but it makes for a nice perk. Plus, I like going to the store :)

MamaP - have fun with the GreenWorks! No guarantees, of course, but if you do "spike" it I can't imagine it will be anything less than good.

Alex, the Jazz works fantastically on hard floors.

I've never been in Abt either but drive past it whenever I go to Chicago or IKEA (I live in Milwaukee).

I'll bet it does :) My Miele Delphi, with a parquet brush, is just about all I need for now. I'd love to carpet the master bedroom, though.

Where Abt is located, you're almost closer in Milwaukee than I am in the city. Milwaukee is great. We go often.

I have used Green Works in the past and I agree that it works well, especially for dark loads (no optical brighteners = no fading). But every time, without fail, I get really sick and tired of the scent of this detergent before I finish the bottle. I like the scent initially but then it gets really old really quick. I don't know what it is but I tried buying it a couple of times and had the same reaction after a few months of using it.

BTW, Costco has this detergent for a really good price, especially if you get it on sale. I think I paid $9.99 for a giant bottle that was 2 or 3 times the size of the regular one you get at Target.

Why do people continue to THROW detergent in the garbage???? I mean seriously, you are talking about using an environmentally friendly detergent and then you admit to throwing away your Persil 2-in-1? Sometimes, Larsi, I swear...

GIVE YOUR DETERGENT to a local homeless shelter, animal shelter, or even your neighbor for goodness sake. This is not the first time you've said this, and I've made this suggestion to you before. Why do you continue to throw away, or pour down the sink, detergents that you don't like instead of giving those detergents new life by donating them?

Sorry, but reading this kind of stuff really irks me.

sshrivastava....I do give away all things I do not care for. I DO NOT DUMP DOWN THE SINK (I have not done that in soooo long, that is irresponsible).

When I was struck with the vomit sour smell from Persil 2 in 1....I'm sorry, irking you or not, I would NOT give this away. I do not want anyone or anything smelling like this. I threw it in the trash. NO guilt. NO second thoughts. NO hesitations. NO remorse. NO ifs ands or buts!!!!

;)

@Alex Chicago, Seventh Generation sent me samples of that liquid. I found it to be very sudsy, but not horrible. With no OB's.. I was thinking it'd make a great blacks & darks detergent.

I've never seen a liquid (besides All Small & Mighty) that recommended using two tablespoons of detergent before. Honestly.. it wouldn't be a horrible trend, though it'd make things hard to dose.

For what it's worth though.. Wal-Mart is asking detergent manufacturers to make liquid detergents more concentrated once again. This time.. I think they want everyone to go to 3x and 4x. They we're one of the sole leaders in pushing P&G & others into going 2x. Literally saying.. do it, or we'll drop the product from our shelves.

Unilever launched All Small & Mighty liquid & Wisk 3x in 2005, before Sun Products bought the brand. I still have a original bottle at home.. and while it's a little sudsy (not-HE).. it has a wonderful scent, and cleans most stuff well. Of course, Sun didn't change the formula much since taking the brands on.. so bottles lingering out there might still be like the original.

Anyway, carry on :P

Mitch, I felt like it left my clothes with a stale, greasy smell to them after repeated use. It could be that my machine just didn't rinse it well enough -- entirely possible -- but with other detergents I don't get that same smell. With a better machine it might be a fine detergent. Oh, and rather than requiring all these liquids be 2,3,4x concentrate to cut down on shipping cost, they could just stock more powders. What a novel idea that would be :)

I remember reading in the past on AW about walmart putting pressure on to make smaller bottles. It will probably happen again.

People want liquids Alex, powders are a thing of the past, I don't understand it but there you have it...it'd a shame really since a good powder will always out clean liquids.

Or the companies could grow a set and tell Wal Mart "NO". The sales of detergent in stores other than WM has to be greater than what is sold in WM.

Mich I think its interesting tha t you don't find much difference in Wisk after Sun took it over. I have a older bottle actually severa l of Unilevers Wisk, and as far as scent goes I find them completely different but that JMO.

They are the world's largest retailer. In terms of sales.. getting a product into their supercenters can make a company, and losing those sales can bankrupt them.

It doesn't matter.. if it's unfair. It doesn't matter.. if it's non fair trade. It doesn't matter how they treat there employees. At the end of the day... everything is replaceable. If a few customers don't shop there... oh well. If a few employees quit, they've got a stack of applicants. If one company pulls their products, they are quickly replaced.

Wal-Mart actually convinced Henkel to launch Persil in America, and offered them valuable shelf space not for exclusivity (We all might find it cool, but there average shopper doesn't understand the brand, or care. It's Wal-Mart.. what do you expect).. but they convinced Henkel to bring the brand, and launch it.. to help push P&G down.

P&G is doing horribly right now. Their stocks & earnings are Shit, and the company is selling off brands for desperately needed revenue. They've shut down factories, and they've reported substantial losses since the economy collapsed in mid-2007 and early 2008. But.. even now, as our economy is making a turn around.. they still have nowhere near the sales volume, as they used to.

As such.. they tried to raise the prices on some of their portfolio products, like Olay & Tide. There bread & butter.. to help return the company into a better financial shape, and raise capital. When they tried to negotiate with Wal-Mart, they we're pretty much threatened. They we're threatened with the loss of their products entirely on store shelves (Wal-Mart contributes to about 37% of their national sales) but P&G pushed back.

When they still tried to push a cost increase, on Tide and their HBA portfolio.. Wal-Mart decided to bring in Henkel (who they'd previously negotiated with) and push Persil onto shelves, and eliminate a bunch of P&G skus entirely. In the end P&G lost a decent bit of their liquid variations of Tide, Gain & Cheer on Wal-Mart's shelves, and backed off the price increase.

They actually made a special bottle of Tide with 125oz at a price decrease, to make WM happy, afterwards. I think they only sold.. the bottle to Target & Wal-Mart.. not any other national chains or wholesalers.

Like it or not. Wal-Mart pretty much has a lot of power. And there's nothing you can do about it.. because people will never stop shopping there. It's a sad fact. They are not american, and have no ethical values. They don't have to care. It's all about the cutting & carving profit out of everything.

It's also worth just wondering.. perhaps P&G changed the scents of Tide & Downy, to appeal to the consumers purchasing the competitor products, with similar scents.

Downy was changed in 2010. They added "renewing scent pearls" to appeal to customers, and try to bring in a competitive edge. Could slumping sales have caused the scent change? Who knows. But.. I think there's a possibility there.

Walmart is certainly an interesting topic. I remember reading all about their supply chain side of things way back when. They were certainly a pioneer in JIT inventory for retail. But it seems that more often than not what I am looking for is out of stock. That used to never happen.

And I think with certain products a manufacturer standing op to WM wouldn't be the end of the world. How many people buy, say Tide out of habit and rarely try something else? I'd bet it would be a large percentage of folks - we are creatures of habit. So if P&G stopped selling to WM would people leave their beloved products and buy the Henkel or WM brands? I'd say not - they would buy Tide at the grocery store or somewhere else.

I can't see WM refusing to stock their shelves with Tide...after all they would be giving up the leading name in detergent and putting a hurt on their sales..like guy says..people will hop over to the local grocery store to buy it.

It doesn't exactly matter if people went somewhere else. The thing is P&G would lose a substantial loss of capital, a substantial loss of sales volume. Overnight.. the company would be depreciated. Investors are already on edge, and this would be enough to make everyone sell, sell, sell, and make it plummet .

Thousands of people would lose there jobs. Factories would shut down. And the company would lose access to desperately needed credit markets for daily operations to survive. Many people would say it's the beginning of the end for P&G, and eventually it would be.

Like I said. I don't think a lot of you truly understand how markets or companies work. If your company is suddenly a risk by Moody's or Standard & Poor's ratings, your screwed. Your not going to continue to get access to credit, everyone see's you as a default risk. A company in troubled times.

Maybe they could survive. Maybe investors would take a "leap of fate"... but I certainly wouldn't place a bet on it. That's the biggest long shot I've ever heard of.

Wal-Mart does know all of this. They brought in Persil for one reason, and one reason only. To scare P&G. And... while you all might think being threatened by your largest distributor is no big deal, I can absolutely guarantee you it made quite a few executives at P&G panic. This would be enough to send them over the edge.

Correct. From P&G's own 2015 annual report and SEC filing:

"Sales to Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. and its
affiliates represent approximately 14 of our total revenue in
2015, 2014 and 2013. No other customer represents more than
10 of our net sales."

If any of you want to watch a case-study in the making, sit back and keep your eye on American Express over the next twelve months. They are in a similar predicament after losing their exclusivity with Costco for not coming to an agreement on interchange rates. For anyone who doesn't know, up until April of this year, Costco only accepted American Express or debit card payment and was also the largest issuer of Amex cards to consumers. This will now be Visa, and will almost certainly prove to be a huge blow to Amex. The stock price has already dropped ~40%.

But wouldn't walmart also take a sunstantial loss? So in other words is a battle of power..a political battle of sorts

I doubt it. People who shop at Walmart are largely one-stop shoppers, shoppers who (incorrectly) believe Walmart is always the best value, or for whom Walmart is the only choice. In small-town American, the option of going to a Target or large grocery chain just isn't there. All this to say, I would estimate 70-80% of shoppers would just buy another brand at Walmart before driving across town -- or county -- to find Tide elsewhere. And this is why Walmart has all the power and P&G has (virtually) none.

I think the only way P&G could pull out of Walmart and not entirely lose its shirt would be by making a large cultural appeal about the "triple bottom line." They would have to convince customers they have severed relations with Walmart for ethical reasons (environmental, wages, etc.) -- sales be damned. Some would buy into it, but it would be a hail-mary pass that any executive would rather avoid.

Oooh, I think it'd end with P&G practially begging to give away it's products to Wal-Mart just to stop the bleeding.

Literally. Wal-Mart would simply not care. We're talking about a corporation that makes over $20,000 in profit every single minute. A few lost sales from Grocery (low margins) & HBA (decent-ish) is not going to worry them. Besides.. there's other products to fill the void.

You don't remember seeing Foca & Ariel at Wal-Mart years ago, did you? That's a recent thing.

@Alex, a few people did short Amex because they knew the Costco contract was up for renewal. They've received quite a nice return on there little investment, haven't they? ;)

Oh.. how fun it would be to have a ISDA, and buy CDS on Skopos & Santander Loans. Someone is going to have a wonderful day when those collapse.

I was a business major in college with an IT focus so I agree with much of what was written but I seriously doubt that a company as diversified and well established as P&G would suffer huge losses losing 14% of their sales. 86% of their sales come from other places.

It would also be a huge loss for Walmart. Think of all that P&G sells - not just Tide: Gain, Cheer, Dawn, Gillette, Crest, Olay, Pantene, Febreeze, Eukanuba, etc. (See them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Procter_%26_Gamble_brands )

All that would disappear from Walmart. How many would still shop there if their favorite brands just disappeared overnight? Would Henkel, Sun, and Unilever be able to fill in the gaps? Would consumers switch? Huge unknowns for all concerned.

IMHO it's just posturing. Some would see the loss of Walmart as the end of times but the smart ones would see it as just a blip on the map. How many who have used Tide for years would simply use something else? Doubtful as you can buy laundry (and most of P&G's products) at thousands of other outlets. The local grocery store, CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid, the corner market. IOW - plenty of places other than Walmart to buy the stuff. You also have stagnant or declining sales at Walmart making an interesting future. Especially with them closing lots of stores, many in those rural areas!

I seriously think that would people's favorite brands disappear from a store that store would lose sales.

But this is a laundry forum so enough business talk! :)

This loses me ..I know walmart is making tons of money...but that's what its about..pulling in the money..so why would they not care about a loss. by the way you do know Walmart is why phosphates were pulled from Cascade when it was, right...walmart says drop the phosphates or we drop the Cascade...Walmart won...they will win in this also...look for smaller packaging, sudsier detergent with a new and improved bubble gum scent..its right around the corner.

It is fascinating - I think Walmart's influence is going to be diminished greatly going forward. They are going to contract as people shop elsewhere, especially online.

I do my part by only shopping there for things that are generally loss leaders for them (motor oil and some detergent). The one thing that I got there - Persil ProClean now can be found elsewhere so one less reason to shop there.

Guy said what I couldn't find words to say...and yes 14% is a ton of money...but it would be much much higher loss to walmart in the end. And how many times I've seen it written that the vast majority of walmart shoppers are low income...that probably means they arnt buying Tide...and the Tide users will just go next door where Tide is stocked....

14% is not an accurate representation. That figure is factored in with international sales. International sales for P&G consists of over 60% of their product distribution. Toss out that figure with the bathwater, and 37% of their American sales would be eliminated overnight.

It's also noteworthy, that the American sales typically have higher returns, as in.. prices are more inflated because of our economy. Losing those would spell trouble to anyone looking at the company, and who determines their ratings.

Beyond that.. have you even been into a Wal-Mart lately? Most of the shelves are poorly stocked, leaving you with extremely limited options. Sometimes, there's even no option of particular brands like (Cascade & Finish, or Tide) because the shelf is empty.

But... that doesn't seem to bother shoppers at all. They are all unphased. They continue to come in, and they settle because they don't want to go anywhere else. Even in the country's most competitive grocery markets like Charlotte, NC and Houston, TX.. they have and continue to do well.. even with shoppers settling most of the time for brands they do not want.

Wal-Mart simply doesn't have to care. If P&G's products we're dropped... they'd replace them with competitors like Unilever, Reckitt Benckiser, Henkel, Sun, Energizer, Mars. A few people might be upset.. but not enough, to make a difference.

@mamapinky0.. a short term loss to them, is nothing. I've seen cases of Wal-Mart purposely breaking state laws, and paying huge fines daily because the profit that could be made breaking those laws. In the end... they can pretty much bully P&G into giving them whatever they want. And they know that.

If they dropped P&G... P&G would crawl to them, begging to be brought back on as a supplier. And like I said... Wal-Mart knows that. P&G will settle for anything to be kept on as a supplier, they just can't afford to lose them.

@Mitch - last business comment and I'll get back to talking about detergents :p In theory, I love the idea of shorting. It seems like it's easier to predict when a firm will do poorly than when they will do extremely well. In practice, I can't bring myself to do it. When you're long, gains are limitless and losses are finite (the current value of the security x shares). When you're short, as you know, it's just the opposite: your gain is limited to the current price and your loss exposure is limitless! It's just a matter of how fast you can unwind your investment. If I feel really strongly about a firm collapsing, I'd rather buy a put and be out the commission if I choose not to exercise it. I almost never mess with derivatives, though. The more I read the more I realize how much I don't know :)

Ok -- so who's washing today? :-D

@Alex.. out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? :)

Financial controller :) Private company (smallish, $15MM revenue). Not an investor, though, other than my own retirement and personal investment portfolios. I'd never want to invest someone else's future.

See... I'm the opposite, I'd love to run a hedge fund. Markets and Derivatives just fascinate me. ;)

I'd love to continue the discussion, but I'll get your e-mail address from Larsi and message you offline so we don't bore these poor folks to death. xoxo

I don't know where you guys are getting that Walmart is doing great. They are not - closing stores and same store sales are flat or down depending on what quarter. They are facing increased competition from online and other retailers. I remember the day when you could go into Walmart and all shelves were stocked. They had some awesome IT infrastructure and made it work for them. But lately they are bare more often than not. A new (less than 2 year old) store is a dismal place to shop.

P&G has stated that WM accounts for 14% of their sales. Period- outside of the USA WM is nothing. And those sales would not be affected at all.

Bottom line is none of this would ever happen as no exec has the cajones to tell WM to stick it. But someone like P&G could pull it off if they thought long term. Simple as launching a full on assault on WM to get those shoppers into the aisles of the competitors! Something like full page ads "Walmart dropped us so we now have BOGO (Buy One Get One Free) everywhere else for the next month. It would cost but would get people into the competitors and long term would be better for them. I'm sure Target, grocery stores would love the chance to get those customers in the door.

And to keep it on track - no wash today but the dishes and the floors. :)

ITGuy - trust me, I'd love nothing more than to see that exact scenario play out. Schadenfreude at its finest. I'm not convinced it will, because 14% is a lot when manager bonuses are measured in basis points changes. But I would still love to see it!

Interesting take on a company that did just what we are talking about:

http://www.fastcompany.com/54763/man-who-said-no-wal-mart

Not sure how it ended up as they were absorbed into a larger company but the article states that while Snapper lost 20% of their sales overnight the other channels made up for it.

Interesting article. Thanks for finding and sharing. I'd counter that lawnmowers and detergent aren't made in the same purchasing mentality (at least, shouldn't be, though I did read the part about replacing them every years...god), so not directly comparable. But it is good to see that severing the WM relationship isn't necessarily the death knell, either.

We had a Snapper 20+ years ago. And a Lawn-Boy (back when they had the goofy staggered wheel design, before Toro bought them). So many good products of yesterday you can't find today.

BOO...My Target didn't have the Green Works. I'll have to try another one near me.

Has anyone noticed that their towels are fluffier using this detergent? It seems like everything has almost a coating on it and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not yet. I've done 6 loads with this and I'm trying to make a decision whether or not it will stay in my laundry Arsenal.