Doc..I can't comment on this since its foreign to me...but have you tested the prewash water in the tub to see what the temp is?

Wind chill effect. That actually makes complete sense. ::thumbsup::

That's probably right with respect to the LG, but also true for any front loader, no? In other words, when you set your Little Giant to reach 45C, I expect that it will reach 45C in the sump, not necessarily in the load, just like the LG that is programmed to reach 155F, will reach that in the sump, not necessarily in the load.

So..does that mean if you choose to wash in temps of 155 in a LG the wash water isn't reaching 155. What is it reaching?

I'm not concerned about my Little Giant's functioning. What I saw is to be expected, even though I never thought about it before. I brought it up because it points to an FL washer issue of general interest. I used to think that wash water depth didn't matter as long as the clothes were soaked. Then I realized they'll get soaked faster if there's more water at the bottom. Now I'm thinking that more water helps the heat get from the internal heater to the clothes. Incidentally, the Little Giant cottons wash water level is pretty high, especially with "+ 35 mm wc" set:

Prewash level:

Main wash level:

Dadoes, wind-chill effect might be a thing during spins, but I don't think it had spun long enough for that. When it starts to spin, the initial burst of extracted water comes out right away.

It doesn't take much heat to warm the door, which is relatively light and has a low specific heat. A heavy wet bundle of clothes with specific heat almost unity is a different matter.

Re my use of the word "sump", I think it's correct from a dictionary point of view, but not to be confused with the drain pump sump. So not the best choice of word.

Izeve, I expect that any specified temperature refers to the wash load, not the water near the heater in the outer drum. Most people wouldn't even think of where the heater is, they just want their stuff clean.

The water in the tub gets heated from the element. The drum rotates during heating so the water is sloshing, keeping mixed-up around the heater and thermistor. The drum picks up heat from the water. The clothes pick up heat from the water. The prewash period is short. It's mainly to loosen and flush away heavy soils and the recommended temperature is cold to moderately warm to avoid setting stains, right?. The main wash period is much longer, allows sufficient time for the clothes to get fully heated per the water temp, yes?

Can't say about your Miele's design ... for reference this is where the heating element is located on a 2006 Duet. The element mounts in from the front of the tub, fits into the metal clip. The thermistor fits into the center hole of the element mount at front of the tub. The drain outlet is to the rear immediately below the element.

@suburban - I couldn't follow the sump discussion.

What I really would like to know is how you compare performance of the LiGi with the high end Asko you had?

dadoes, thanks for the pictures, and I agree with everything you've said. But... When the heater is on, the water around it is warmer than the clothes in the drum, and the thermistor reading (and, it seems, the LG push-two-buttons temperature readout) doesn't represent the clothes temperature. So guaranteeing a particular temperature throughout a load isn't as simple as holding the thermistor reading at that value for an interval. All this isn't news to the manufacturers of course, and they must have worked out, theoretically and/or empirically, how clothes temperature relates to thermistor temperature and time.

rococogurl, I gave up on using the Asko long before it was removed, because it was just too frustrating. The manual said it would adjust the initially-displayed program times based on its experience, but that didn't seem to happen. Most washes took longer than estimated, and I got tired of going downstairs to see it doing its drawn-out distribution routine that seemed pointless to me. It was a relief to use the big Miele on the first floor instead. So I don't have enough experience to compare bottom-line wash results, if that's what you're asking for. I'm much happier using the Little Giant. Still have to use the big machine to keep it healthy, so I use it for the bi-weekly cleaning rag load on Sanitary, and my wife uses it for her stuff, unless I ask to grab a load for the Little Giant.

I think your splitting hairs. The constant sloshing of the water is keeping it mixed up enough that the temp differential between the sump and other parts of the drum is minimal.

You could use an immersion heater to play with temperature uniformity in a vessel of water. It would be harder to simulate the clothes. But I just cannot imagine how a big wet bundle of clothes could have no parts lagging temperature-wise behind the thermistor that's right next to the heater. The bundle isn't even immersed in the water that's mixing with the outer drum, it's just sitting on top of a small pool of it.

suburbanmd....The pics you are showing of the prewash and wash cycle water levels are with no laundry in them.

Do you have (in Supervisor settings) Automatic Load Control set to ON? I do. With ALC set to ON, the LiGi will sense how much water actually needs to be added. Of course, when we have out water levels set higher, we will be given even more water. I found when I wash just a few items, the wash and rinse levels are dramatically lower than when I was a big load of clothes, towels, blankets or sheets. I love the Automatic Load Control.

Also, isn't Supervisor Settings a BLAST? Each time I use my Little Giant, I am more and more impressed and happier and happier. B E S T appliance purchase EVER!!!!!!!

suburbanmd I think maybe you are missing that the heater will stay on so that as the clothes cool they will also cool the water and the heater will keep pumping in heat.

Think of it like making spaghetti. You boil the water and toss the spaghetti in. The water cools and the burner replaces the heat until it boils again. That's what goes on in the machine. There may be a lag but the thermistor wills sense the cool down and should add more heat.

Have you opened the drum at the end of the prewash to feel if there are cold spots in the load?

Typically, front loaders reheat the water throughout the main wash cycle and recirc pumps and/or the holes in the drum vanes help to scoop water over the laundry. Of course, if the wash cycle is very short and the load large, cold spots can happen. I've experenced that with my Duet once. If fills with cold water to a low level and starts heating at 2,000 watts (too little for that large machine, I think). I used the Mixed Items cycle and the max amount of clothes alowed (13 lbs. on this cycle). After the heater clicked off and the main wash drain started, I checked the clothes and there were some spots that certaily weren't 104F as expected. What had happened was that the thermistor had registered that the set temp was reached and immediately ended the wash. :( Had I chosen a longer cycle or one that reheats the water, this wouldn't have happened.

In the end, only Miele know how long a certain temp is held. As said above, you can try and open the door to feel if the clothes are uniformly heated. The main wash, I am sure, does maintain the temp for at least some minutes.

Larsi, I do get a lot more water with a load in the washer. It even seems like the standing water level is higher in that case, rather than the extra water all going into the clothes. Here I just wanted to show the standing water level with the drum empty, for comparison with other washers.

Whirlpool_trainee, a 6-minute cold-fill prewash is just too short to expect an evenly heated load, so I'm not faulting Miele for what I saw. I like my wash cycles on the long side.

Tideman_59 and itguy08, I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about at this point :-) If I could access thermistor readings on one of my washers, I'd probably spend some of my precious life recording them at 5 minute intervals along with heater on/off status, on various cycles, and then graphing the results. Might be interesting to look at.

Prewash should be done in cool water, Doc is your prewash cold or cool? But 6 minutes seems very short.

Mama - the LiGi is cold water fill only, so the first water to hit the clothing will be whatever is the tap temp. The heater works swiftly, though, as it's like 5x more than anything the rest of us have.

Ya but cold fill depending on where you live can be frigid and the prewash runs 6 minutes, cold water sets stains just like hot...Hmm

mamapinky, please call me anything except "doc". It's bad enough that I didn't realize my state abbreviation would be misinterpreted as Medical Doctor.

Little Giant lets you add 6 or 9 or 12 minutes to prewash time. It lets you choose prewash temperature of 35C or 45C or 55C. It lets you choose cold or hot for prewash water intake and for main wash water intake, separately. I'm using cold because of hot water lag. If prewash becomes important to me then I'll lengthen the time.

I'm still not sold on cold water setting stains "just like hot." I'm young, dumb, and capable of being proven wrong -- but a whole continent of cold-fill only washers leads me to think otherwise.

I know hot cooks the stain into the fibers..perhaps cold freezes it in lol...I'm not sure the scientific reason maybe someone else does but when I say cold I mean cold lol...take blood very cold will cause it to coagulate into the fibers.

For once, I disagree with mamapinky on cold water. I've always used it to remove stains, especially blood which I put under a slow cold water faucet. It's gone within a few minutes. I swear by the cold prewash. Cold in my FL is 86 F it's a blended temp. There is a setting that will give tap water cold which can vary from the 40s up around here depending on the weather.

Roc I'm not talking about 86F cold..I'm talking COLD...in my Opinion 86F is not cold. Lol.

Roc..I use cold tap for blood in the summer but in the winter my cold tap is too cold.

I recently had to wash a lot of blood stained laundry (dog in heat). My washer filled with 55F water and, after tumbling in cold water for about ten minutes, heated the load to 140F. All blood stains removed, using cheap but enzyme-laden detergent.

Edit: the stains also sat for a week before laundering.

There's cold than there's cold...I think temps for cold fall between 75-85F..below or above I wouldn't rely on for stain removal of blood and some other stains otherwise it can be risky...cold water below a target cold causes fabrics fibers to close up, constrict, trapping stains and causing them to adher to the fabric just the opposite of hot which causes fibers to **open up** and baking the stain into fibers. Rocs cold temp of 86F would not be concidered cold. That's pretty much what temp I'd use for stains..

Alex your 55F was way to cold IMO but it came out, which doesn't mean it will next time LOL.