Hi Kublakan. I see you are planning on changing your spray program. Are you changing only due to cost? Or are you having certain insect problems that aren't being resolved? How about fungicide? I lost a couple of roses this fall/winter due to severe die back. I think it was from downy mildew. I don't seem to be able to control it with your original spray program.

IT looks like the Monterey Garden Insect Spray is for the chili thrips since it has spinosad - which would replace the Conserve - am I right. On the other products that you are suggesting which ones replace which ones. Thanks

Is the Bayer 3-1 supposed to be sprayed? I thought it was a drench. I stopped using it because it was too expensive. I also didn't want all that insecticide if I didn't need it.The others you mentioned, Subdue Maxx , Python and Monterey look more like lawn fungicides. Do you have a big problem with mildew? What diseases are you seeing? I use Honor Guard, which is a generic form of Banner Maxx, you can get it on Rosemania. I am also adding Cleary's this year.

bayer 3 in 1 has both a drench and a spray program

Hi Sharon. I'm changing my spray program to address the fungal/bacterial issues while trying to lessen the amount of insecticide that I use. With the 3-in-1 from Bayer I noticed that I lose a lot of my beneficial/wanted bugs like lady bugs and butterflies every time I end up using it. I've looked for the version of the Bayer or Ortho product that does not contain the insecticide in my local big box stores, but I can't seem to find it. Then it dawned on me the other day, as I was paying for three of the Bayer 3-in-1 hose end sprayers, that it was costing me close to $60 for one application and I thought it crazy, so I reached out to the folks at Nelson's and a few others that deal with roses to see what I could do about the die-back. The aforementioned chemicals were the ones that were recommended so I bought the cheaper ones and left Subdue Maxx for another time, maybe after tax return season, lol.

My original spray program is rain challenged. My biggest problem is that I will wait for a break in the rain, following the weather PREDICTIONS, and no sooner than I sprayed than I'd hear rain that night or the following morning (I spray at night for obvious reasons). With our weather recently, it's been very difficult to time my spray program. Ultimately, and I think you gathered this already, my shift to another spray program has more to do with saving money than anything else. I was spending $120 on the Ortho and Bayer stuff every month and I would scoff when I saw what some of these other chemicals cost online. It just doesn't make sense.

My advice, don't waste your time with Monterey Garden Insect Spray. Conserve SC provides the best does to take care of your Chili Thrips problem. Anything else is just Conserve SC diluted.

Lastly, and forgive the length of this response, I'm looking to replace the Bayer and Ortho products, that's why I'm switching over to different forms of fungicides. I can spray for insects fairly easily and inexpensively, but fungi and bacteria fighting chemicals are a little harder to find.

Buford, this is the Bayer product I'm talking about:

https://www.bayeradvanced.com/find-a-product/tree-shrub-care/3-in-1-insect-disease-mite-control

I already use the generic form of Banner Maxx in my spray program, but I'm afraid of overusing it and having the BS in my yard grow resistant. I agree with what you're saying about using a product with insecticide when you would prefer not to.

BTW - I buy my "Banner Maxx" on Amazon (much cheaper, $25). Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Propiconazole-Honor-Guard-Spectrum-Fungicide/dp/B015X6FIYS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454125740&sr=8-1&keywords=banner+maxx

Hi Kublakan, Bayer does make a fungicide only product, Bayer Advanced Disease Control. I have found it in Lowes, but not Home Depot. However, it is the same MOA as Honor Guard and also a 'zole, so you probably don't need it. I would keep alternating between Honor Guard and Cleary. I also get my Honor Guard cheaper through my roses society. I didn't know that Amazon also sold it.

Last year I switched from the Bayer Advanced to Honor Guard. I do think it has better control. I am adding the Clearys because I have heard it can prevent canker, which I get sometimes. I think you should be ok with those two.

For thrips, I haven't had luck with Conserve. Last year I started using Orthene (not in my fungicide spraying, but separately and only on unopened buds). That has made a big difference. As far as I know, I don't have chili thrips, but they are a threat.

Kublah, can you explain what each of these products do? Subdue Maxx, Cleary 3336F, Phyton 27, and Monterey Agri-Fos

They are all Fungicides.

The question was asked what does each of these products do. As answered above, yes Cleary 3336F is a fungicide but it also is known to the state of California to be a Developmental Toxin.

SAFETY DATA SHEET

"

California Proposition 65 – Developmental Toxin: "Thiophanate-methyl is known to the State of California to cause developmental effects in males and females."

-----------------------------------------------------

(H. Kuska comment: Thiophanate-methyl is the active ingredient in Cleary 3336F.)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiM7OjPp9PKAhXJ7R4KHfO4CPkQFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdms.net%2FLDat%2Fmp3N2000.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHdMTGsNj9mDQLOa6_i5wZqECVhjA&sig2=F_KTH88szRw2SvJdrsTqAQ&bvm=bv.113034660,d.dmo

You are considering one product containing Thiophanate-methyl and another product containing metalaxyl M. Have you investigated and concluded that your roses suffer from diseases for which those fungicides are currently recommended? For example, I would use neither for the common diseases of rose blackspot, rose powdery mildew or rust. Do you suffer from the likes of downy mildew, pythium or phytopthora rots? If you do have a big persistent problem with rose cankers maybe you should reconsider your cultural practices first.

Thank you for that information Henry. I will be looking into this information. Do you recommend products like the Bayer and Ortho product line?

Nik, I'm trying to tackle the issue with the massive amount of die-back that I have been dealing with. Although I'm usually pretty good with my cultural practices, there are times when the weather here in Florida does not lend itself to functional practices, especially with the massive amount of rain and the switching back from hot to cold that we've been experiencing. If all I had to deal with was black spot, life would be easy, the life of a South Florida gardener is anything but common. I am currently doing a little more due diligence in investigating the functions of each product after your commentary. This is why I love this forum, with all the feedback that I get.

Yes, I am afraid those of us in the southeast have issues with canker. I am not sure if it's the extreme weather (last two winters were unusually cold, this one was extremely mild) but I have lost many roses to canker. Some were new roses in pots. I'm just not sure what has been causing it, but it's too much to say it's cultural practices. Several of my rose friends here have recommended Cleary and the recent DSD Mid Winter meeting we had a seminar on rose diseases and it was also mentioned. This was in Gainesville Florida and was geared toward Florida and Georgia/Alabama rose growers.

Maybe Dr. Malcolm Manners is the person in this forum to discuss with either in public or in private. Rose cankers may be caused by a number of agents not all of them addressable by the same fungicides (or any fungicides for that matter). Cultural practices have to adapt to one's climate and these include all matters from plant selection to soil preparation and planting, to fertilizing and pruning. Btw, if one is really considering metalaxyl M and Thiophanate methyl and suspects Phytopthora spp. related cankers one should also investigate fosetyl-Al (e.g. Aliette and other brands). That is, after taking into consideration what Henry will surely point out about it..

Nik, why Aliette?

As I implied it is one of the main fungicides against Phytopthora spp. Also against some blights. Another is Mefenoxam (e.g. Subdue Maxx, also fights Pythium sp., no clue if this affects roses). But really, one needs to have a fair idea about what one's fighting against to select appropriate fungicides and bactericides as well as application protocols. I don't believe anyone of authority would recommend blindly regularly applying a variety of fungicides in the hope that one might help... Maybe you should perform a test to a few of your roses. Maybe you should send some diseased specimens to a lab for identification first, if you feel the situation requires such interventions. Maybe you should also consider your health.

Be warned that some active ingredients, including fosetyl-Al (Aliette), should not be applied in tandem with copper.

Just to correct one of my previous statements, you are not considering metalaxyl M as it is not contained in any of your fungicide list. My mistake, it is always tricky for me when brands rather than drastic ingredients are mentioned as is common with you guys in the States, since brands differ across the world. Metalaxyl M is one of the fungicides recommended against rose downy mildew. Ridomil is one brand containing metalaxyl M. It's reasonably effective if combined with copper. Strobilurin class of fungicides are also effective against rose downy mildew and can provide some control against blackspot also.

I have not read this book so I do not know if it would be useful. This post is just to let you know that it exists. Can anyone comment as to whether it is useful?

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&authuser=0&gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&hl=en&authuser=0&q=The+Art+of+South+Florida+Gardening

Has anyone tried Actinovate? Either alone or in conjunction with other products? Don't mean to hijack your thread Kublakan but wondering if it would be useful.

Julie

This is the handout we were given at the seminar.

The Plant Doctor

Obviously, not much about PM is known in Mississippi.. I'm also surprised Captan is considered a 'residential use' fungicide over there. Also, I would think that there are more effective ingredients both for blackspot and botrytis which Captan supposedly controls.