I think you have a functional plan. I'd like to get the fridge away from the big window where it will block a lot of the light, and I like a sink under a window, but I can't think of any way to achieve those ends without making a barrier island.

Welcome to Kitchens--you sound like one of us already. :)

We are living with a barrier island with the current plan and I despise it soooooo much and to top it off the barrier island has a stove right in the middle (Jenn Air down draft...ugh)!!!!!

On the new plan I've tried the swapping the fridge and stove, but the fridge just seems to only go where it is. Kids going to the fridge for snacks, drinks ect. would always cross my cooking zone. I placed the prep sink next to the fridge to give my self a larger prep area....I'm sort a of "yard sale" type of cook....I need space.

I've also contemplated swapping the kitchen and table area, but the costs are a bit too high.

What do you use the space to the right of the kitchen (with the slider to the deck) for? Is it just a big walkway? It looks like in the new plan you might want to use it as a mudroom area?

I worked on this, but just read that putting the kitchen in the dining room was too high for you. I'll post anyway in case it sparks ideas.

To me, one of the best improvements will be the view from the front foyer. Insead of looking into the kitchen at the dishwasher, you see the dining room and--if the window is increased--the view outside.

(The shaded green is just representative of 48" clearance around your existing table.)

Yeah, the space to the right of the range is going to be a mud room type area. We are planning on putting in 3 cubbies, they will be narrow about 20in each.. Right now the floor for this entire area is red oak (runs under the cabinets also....bonus!), but we may put some tile in that mud room area.

You have a pretty good layout, with one notable exception - your aisles. Both of your aisles are too tight. They should be a minimum of 42" for a one-cook Kitchen, not 40". The island is the culprit, unfortunately.

If you plan to teach your children to cook and cleanup, then you will have a two-cook (or more) Kitchen and your tight aisles will become an even bigger issue - the recommendation is 48-inch aisles for 2 or more people. Add in that it looks like the Kitchen is in the middle of the house and there is the potential to have significant traffic through it - from the garage to the Dining Room or the hallway to the DR. You can try to train everyone to go down the hall, through the Living Room and to the DR, but I don't think you'll be very successful...

I also think your aisles are more like 39", if your layout is scaled correctly. It shows 42" b/w the perimeter and island - subtract 3" from that and you're down to 39" (1.5" counter overhang on each side).

Regarding the refrigerator, it shouldn't block too much light - you have a fairly large window over the Prep Zone and the DR is completely open to the Kitchen, so light will not be an issue. The refrigerator will not block much b/c it's not that deep and it takes up a small percentage of the depth b/w the outside wall & the LR wall.

Do you really have to have the island? It's only 30" deep and w/o water it's not that useful for prepping...

Have you considered a peninsula instead?

Dish storage will be on the DR side of the sink - I strongly suggest upper cabinets, not open shelving. Ditto over the DW.

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Do you think an 18" wide closet will be very useful?

Your Powder Room is rather large, you might consider taking part of the corner and putting your closet there - it could be around 3 feet wide (maybe more). The cubby seats would be b/w the HVAC wall and the new closet wall - approx 30" wide. Plenty of room for one person. I don't think you want more than one person sitting there - at least not more than one child...to cut down on fighting/arguing; of course, then they may fight over who gets the seat - but maybe that old closet space could be another seat. Without the wall, it's around 24" wide.

Your island is drawn at 30" deep. If you have only 1" overhang on each side you can gain 4" for the work aisle. With no water on the island that shouldn't be a problem. I read somewhere, recently, that a KD recommended less of an overhang--I wish I could remember the post so that I could back up my info, but it eludes me at the moment.

MamaGoose, inset cabinets only need about a 1" overhang - you may be thinking of the recent post where someone said one of her/his KDs recommended 3/4" instead of the 1.5" for overlay - the OP had inset cabinets. I still think 1" is better for inset, but 3/4" could work as a "make do"/settle for.

With overlay (full or partial), I would not want anything less than 1.5". The overhang is supposed to protect the cabinets, doors/drawer fronts, and hardware from spills - which means it has to extend out to at least the depth of the door/drawer front (1") + pulls/knobs (~1/2" more once they're installed - sometimes more).

If a KD recommends less, I would be suspicious that s/he is trying to make up for a poor design by making it look like there's more aisle room - at the expense of protecting the cabinets, etc. In addition, a narrower overhang reduces the depth of the workspace. (1/2" doesn't seem like much, but anything more will make a functional difference.)

benjesbride: Unfortunately that wall area in the center of the house can't be modified, they are load bearing. (Actually, we just don't have enough $$ to do it). Also not shown on the plan, there are hall closets that take up some space in the Liv. Rm. (So the Tv is actually moved forward about 3 feet).

The plan for that side of the house was similar to yours, except the sink connected the two counters along that large window, and the fridge was across the peninsula with additional counter space (where you have the sink & DW)

If the island were reduced to 27" deep, then there would be 40.5" - but that's still too tight!

beuhl: The plan is to scale as best as I could...I drew it in excel, so I couldn't put a line in the middle of a cell. The measurements from wall to wall (across the kitchen is 162" (162"-25.5"-25.5"= 111" between counters, 111" - 30" island, leaves 81" for aisle, so assuming that the island is in the middle there should be 40.5" on each side). I was thinking that 111" between counters would too far even with wider cabinets it's still about 106" (the island gives us added storage and no corners to deal with. Don't get me wrong....I'm not holding out for the island....I've look at peninsulas on one side of the cabinets run and on both sides, just didn't seem to work....for me. Maybe GW will come up with something better.

Would it be better to make the aisle between stove and island smaller and wash side larger for better traffic flow?

Right now the aisle between stove and sink is 35" and I actually kind of like it....when I'm alone.

As for the open shelves over the sink....most likely we are going to do cabinets on either side of the sink and open over the sink.

The half bath isn't as big as it is on the plan it's 6'x5.5' (which is still too big for a half bath)

I'm trying to visualize the closet info and will get back to you on that.

So, when I do the math, I get the following:

27 boxes = 27 x 6 = 162"

25.5" Prep Zone run + 27" deep island + 25.5" Cleanup Zone run = 78"

162" - 78" = 84" for aisles

84" / 2 = 42"

You should have room for 42" aisles on each side of the island if you have a 27" deep island.

Cross posted!

Our PR is 4'6-5/8"W x 4'6"D and it's big enough for a PR. No, it's not a luxurious size, but it fits the toilet and a 24" (or maybe 21" - I'd have to measure) sink base.

There's plenty of "elbow room" around the toilet.

(I'm working on a plan right now - but it's in PowerPoint, so I won't be able to do elevations.)

BTW...DW doors stick out approx 27" into the aisle, not 24".

Based on what I see in your layout:

The other problem I see is that you only have about 30" b/w the table and the 36" cabinet next to the cleanup sink once the 15"D cabinets are installed under the window. That's too tight.

For now, without the cabinets, you will be fine b/c you can move the table up, but once those cabinets go in, you won't have enough room.

A piece of friendly advice - that table will be far too short when your younger children hit pre-teen, they will take up adult space. You will not be able to fit all 5 of your around a 60" long table (with 40" depth). You are going to need a table at least another foot or so long. Each person on the side takes up at least 24" (maybe even 30"). That means there's only 6" on each end for the legs of the people sitting on the ends - believe me, that's not enough! You'll be OK with one person on the one side, but if you have to put two people on a side, you'll be cramped!

This is all assuming your family is normal/average size (height/weight). If the teen/adult size of all your family is/will be considerably smaller (height & weight) than normal average, it might not be too bad - but if your family is average or larger (height and/or weight), it will be even worse.

Note: You don't have room to expand that table to 60" wide - not if you want people to be able to maneuver around it to get to the chairs and to be able to pull out the chairs to sit.

Buehl: You're right about the island width...I doubled the overhang.

as for the table....my kids are very tall. The table is tight without the extension in. Ideally I would like to get a table that extended length wise or a round table. I could make the sink a 33" base and a 24" cabinet next to it for some more room. As for the future 15" cabinets, those can go on the chopping block if need be.

Welcome to my world! I'm the shortest in our family at 5'10". My DD is 6', my DH is 6'5", and my DS is 6'7". We outgrew our 36"W table b/f our children even hit their pre-teens - it was too narrow! We now have a 42" wide table and it's just barely wide enough. There's still a bit of leg/knee bumping, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was! Our table is 60" long (I think) but it's only for 4 people - my children can sit a bit staggered so they don't bump knees.

(I probably need to stop calling them "children" as they're both in college now!)

How far off the floor is the window on the far left wall? Is it far enough that you could put in a bench - like in a banquette?

Maybe even a corner banquette if you use the top window wall as well...but I would probably not want to do that unless it was absolutely necessary.

Window far left is 27" sill to floor and the large one is a bay window 24" sill to floor. The large bay window will probably be replaced soon (hence the future cabinets...when we could save enough money for that phase. I was planning on a triple double hung window unit.

OK, so probably not high enough. Oh well. I did work up an idea if you could, but it would mean replacing the window and that's not in the budget from what I'm hearing. I'll post it anyway.

So, the layouts:

There are three, the only differences b/w them is the table space; the Kitchen is the same.

The Kitchen has a peninsula to help protect the Cooking Zone. Without it, people will be passing through and getting in your way. The peninsula actually protects the Prep Zone as well - and since 70% or more of the time is spent prepping, that will be very helpful. [Cooking is 10% - actually watching food cook, adding ingredients, stirring; Cleaning up is 20% or less - including clearing the table, wiping down surfaces, and loading/unloading the DW.]

Note the base cabinet in the peninsula corner - it's turned so it faces outside the Kitchen. This provides you with the best storage option for a corner - there's no wasted space. In addition, you can use that cabinet for non-Kitchen storage - dog/cat food if you have pets, glove/mitten/scarf storage, etc. We made ours into a "Pet Center". It holds pet food, treats, leashes, etc. The top drawer holds our flashlights & batteries.

The Kitchen also has a 27" deep island with an 18" trash pullout that opens in both directions - you would only need one trash pullout and it would be more convenient than under the sinks. It's a narrow island, but it does provide a secondary Prep Zone for one of the children to help - but not get in your way b/c they can work on the Cleanup Zone side - as long as no one is cleaning up at the same time. There's also the peninsula and the counter next to the cleanup sink (opposite side from the DW).

The MW drawer is on the refrigerator end of the island so it's accessible to both someone working in the Kitchen as well as someone getting a snack - without them getting in each other's way.

Since you won't have many upper cabinets, the island and peninsula provide a lot of additional storage space.

In addition, I put in an 18" tall pantry where you had a closet. It can provide quite a bit of food storage. You probably cannot do a pullout b/c that space is too tight to get to the sides, but I think with a combination of drawers below waist height and shelving above, you will still be able to access everything.

Finally, there's a 39" wide closet near the garage door entrance - where you probably need it most (assuming the garage is the family entrance).

Layout #1 has your table as 40" x 60"

Layout #2 has it expanded to 60" x 60". It has the bench b/c it won't fit otherwise.

Layout #3 is with a rectangular table that's 42"W x 78"L - it also has the bench.

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Pantry example:

Here are two other examples with a rectangular table - without the bench. #4 is definitely too tight. #5 is probably acceptable.

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If you reduce the sink to 30" - it would help. A 30" sink base can fit a 27" sink - that's a pretty large bowl! My sink has a bowl that's 21.5" wide and everything fits in it except the 30" wide shelf and deli drawer from my refrigerator.

Finally, here's one with the narrower Prep Zone/Cooking Zone aisle (39") and the wider Cleanup Zone aisle (45"). This will make it easier for traffic to pass b/w the island the cleanup side. I'm not a fan of 39" wide aisles, but if you want/need an island, it's probably just barely doable.

The cleanup sink base is 30" to add some to the aisle b/w the table and cabinets.

What you could do is make it a 33" sink base and 33" cabinets instead of 36". Something to think about.

That's it for me for tonight!

Is that the only entrance to the den?

buehl: wow, thanks...I'll need a few days to mull this over!

benjesbride: there is another entrance to the den. It's right next to the stair case as you walk in the front door.

Is there a landing for the stairs behind the door?

Sorry, no landing behind the basement door.

If you really want an island would it be possible to cut back the wall next to the hallway so that it is 12 inches deep, then do wall pantry on the bottom wall. Put the cleanup in the island .

karenseb: that wall can't be moved it is part of a support for a load bearing wall. Your first plan sparked an idea that I'm working on. I like the idea of the wall separating the mud and the kitchen, well from the mud room at least. I'm not sure if I like it from the kitchen side...idk if it will close things off or make it come together. We lived here about 14 years with the kitchen open, I thinks it's just hard for me to picture.

+1 for buehl's peninsulas. Works for our new kitchen to wall off a protected area for the cook while guests congregate outside this area (they used to hang out IN the cooking area.)

Re: counter overhang - If you go with inset cabinets, as little as 1/2" overhang works very well. After exhaustive research on this, we installed only 1/2" overhangs on our eased-edge granite counters over white inset cabinets...gave us maximum aisle room in a tight space and works out great.

Beuhl: I think your last idea is what I am to go with. Maybe tweek it a little.

What is the smallest cabinet that would go to the right of the range. The plan has a 12" plus a 3" filler (I'm assuming). What would the the absolute minimum cabinet plus filler that could go there?

I may put in a rangetop and undercounter wall oven, (Using Beuhl's Layout #6) I'm going to locate it on the peninsula. Just not sure if it would be better facing towards the cooktop side or facing out at the end of the peninsula (facing the basement door). There will be drawer under the rangetop.

Bump

I would have it fit on the cooktop side and not on the end facing the basement steps,

That's was my initial thought, but if it faces out, someone else can tend to the oven while I'm at the cooktop. I also worry about it being in the way of the traffic flow, but the oven isn't open all that much.

Which layout are you asking about?

In general, if a cabinet door opens against a wall or much deeper cabinet, you need around 1" b/w the cabinet and the wall - or have your cabinet built with an extended stile so you don't use filler. It's hare to show that in my layouts, so I usually show filler - plus some cabinet lines and cabinet makers do not offer an extended stile without going custom.

Ditto, if it opens against a range hood or refrigerator or tall pantry or tall oven cabinet or... you get the picture!

Okay, I should be fine with a 6"cabinet and filler strip on the right side of the range next to the peninsula. I'm going with your layout#6.

Also what do you think about the direction of an undercover wall oven opening...towards the rangetop or towards the basement door.

BTW...thanks for all your help, buehl

Let me caution you about under counter ovens - they are lower/closer to the floor than the oven in a range. We briefly considered it in our kitchen - until we saw one installed and saw just how low they really are - the oven door handle barely cleared the floor! We immediately dismissed the idea.

If you must, then I would put it in the middle of the island offset from the cooktop, facing the cooktop. It's not a good idea to have an oven open into a potentially busy aisle. You also don't want to risk someone stepping back from the cooktop with a pot of boiling water into an open oven door.

The range or cooktop + ovens should be the most protected items in the kitchen - you're dealing with very, very hot pans/food and you don't want to be tripping over people or have someone coming running down the aisle when there's an open oven.

We just put in an undercounter wall oven - maybe it depends on which one or how it is installed? It doesn't feel any different than using a range oven to me - maybe it's an inch or so lower. It worked really well for our space needs.