Nik,

The first rose bush/ climber I thought of is Zephirine Drouhin. However, I don't have any useable knowledge regarding mildew. Generally speaking, it is not much of an issue in my very arid climate

Lynn

ZD is one of only 2 roses I have ever shovel pruned. We are not in a humid summer climate - it is very dry in the summer, but we do live 6 blocks from San Francisco Bay. ZD was worse than a mildew magnet here - it was pure white from powdery mildew, 12 months of the year, even after I gave in and started spraying it regularly.

Jeri is the best source I know of people who grow roses in alkaline soil - hopefully she will see this.

Jackie

Hi Nik,

Have you considered Kathleen Harrop? My neighbour grows hers on a tall chain link fence and I really love the look of it - the fence isn't more than 2 - 2.5 metres tall and it doesn't seem to have many thorns. Given that her soil is the same as mine - it's well and truly alkaline but hers has minimal amendment - some compost and horse manure when the rose was planted about 3 years ago. I haven't noticed any mildew on her but also haven't looked that closely.

Cheers

Tricia

My experience with ZD is very different from Jackie's. The one I planted over 15 years ago is neglected, but performing okay despite the neglect. Honestly, I thought the summer heat would be an issue for it, despite being planted in an area that receives a decent amount of shade. It has survived and looks to be doing fine. I can almost guarantee that my ex-husband's gardeners have only thrown the general balanced fertilizer they spread around just about everything in the yard once per year on it too. Over the years, I have contemplated taking cuttings from it. That ZD is grafted on Dr. Huey, the soil here is alkaline, but our climates are very different, with yours being definitely closer to Jackie's. Based upon her experience, and especially if others chime in, I would be inclined to disregard ZD, and would definitely keep searching.

Here's two threads on the topic. Gardeners living in two different areas of coastal and possibly coastal Southern California with different experiences... photos included.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1558660/zephirine-drouhin?n=17

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2839145/where-would-zephirine-drouhin-do-well-in-california?n=5

Lynn

ZD was both a mildew and rust magnet here. In fact, it still holds the record for worst case of rust I've ever seen on a rose: not a bit of surface that was not covered with orange sporangia; resembled a giant Cheeto.

How about something like the noisette, 'Bouquet tout Fait'? I have only had mine in the ground for a couple of years, so can't make any definitive pronouncements, but it does look promising as a small-ish climber, I think. The blooms are charming, come regularly, and are nicely and distinctly scented. It only gets a bit of mildew in the early spring and is clean the rest of the year; I have a suspicion it will get even less prone to mildew as it matures, as many of my tea-noisettes have. The leaves are nice. The soil has tested only slightly alkaline in the garden areas but produces alkali salt efflorescences where I have not amended.

Catspa,

WOW... " a giant Cheeto". That seems like something out of a bad science fiction movie... you would even deter me with that one (Lol).

Lynn

A med climate is not necessarily 'dry' with respect to the air relative humidity levels. This often has to do with the microclimate of each region and is often related with the proximity to the sea and the prevailing winds. We have high humidity seasons here. Today at 10 am our relative humidity was 92% without rain..

Livermore not soooo close to the coast, Lynn (East Bay Hills are between us and it), so only some "coastal influence" here. From time to time the fog does get this far inland during the summer, but rarely lasts past 9 a.m., if that, when it does. But, rust can get going sometimes, anyway, especially during particular kinds of spring weather.

Here's photos of 'Bouquet tout Fait' blooms while it was still in the pot, July 16, 2013. My plant is own-root and was among my last purchases from Vintage.

close-up:

Showing leaves, same cluster of blooms:

Bouquet tout Fait is gorgeous, Catspa!

I am not familiar with Livermore at all. My deleted post was regarding San Francisco, the very close surrounding areas, as well as so many other areas along the CA coast, expressing that while they are in a drought, with less rainfall, many areas have decent levels of humidity; some even still being considered humid, relatively, most of the time. Somewhat similar to what Nick described, but I did not want to get into dew and other factors so.... delete...

I track weather and believe that knowing more about what is going on can definitely help in making better rose and plant selections... although sometimes it really does come down to trial and error.

Lynn

Climbing clothilde soupert? Mine is on the north side of the house and tolerates a lot of neglect. Almost thornless and very flexible canes.

I can't speak as to the soil type: ours is heavy clay but I believe about neutral ph, as I don't usually have problems with chlorosis. With that in mind, what occur to me are the more lax Hybrid Musks--'Cornelia', 'Pax', 'Francesca', 'Buff Beauty' come to mind--and Noisettes such as 'Blush Noisette' and 'Belle Vichyssoise'. Some of the more rampant Teas might do well: as you know I've been training 'Archduke Joseph' as a climber, and 'Mrs. B. R. Cant' would lend itself well to this kind of treatment. I don't know about shade tolerance with the Teas. Again, I can't say about the soil.

I wonder if 'Blossomtime' would do well for you/ appeal to you? It seems to handle a variety of conditions well from what I've read, though, of course, there's only one way to find out for sure if a rose will be good in your garden...

Have fun deciding,

Virginia

Are noisettes supposed to be shade tolerant the way HMs are supposed to be? I have Blush Noisette as a young bareroot in a pot. My experience with both Cornelia and Buff Beauty has not been positive up to now both with regards to growth and to floriferousness but maybe it has been my mistake. The first might be growing in too much shade and the second in too much heat..

Catspa, I am heartened to see a Bouquet Tout Fait! It was an impulse purchase, as it were - I wanted a white for the back of the border to go with Pax, and opted for this one despite there not being much about it on hmf, and periodically I dither thinking maybe I made a mistake. But yours looks pretty even as a baby.
Nik, my still small Blush Noisette grows in semi shade, and is healthy and repeats well - in fact almost always has some bloom. And it smells nice to my nose. I seem to recall that in other discussions some people said it refused to climb for them though?

ZD both mildewed, bs'd and rusted for me in the UK - full sun helped with the bs and potting it for better airflow helped the mildew - but nothing stoppped it rusing so out it went.

I can believe Franceca as a climber - mine has 6ft canes and it's only a year old. I'm trying to grow it wound round an obelisk at the moment.
I could again be wrong - but I think I've read that Noisettes often do well in semi shade in warmer climes - I know that Macharel Niel for example is cited as being good in shade, because I was just reading about it! Of course here, it needs sun, sun, sun!

About Blossomtime, mentioned by Virginia, can anybody sum up the differences between it and New Dawn? ND is too thorny and vigorous (in my climate) for that spot. Also is Blossomtime any shade tolerant?

BTF looks very pretty, I'm still not sure how 'pure' Noisettes perform in my climate.

'Blossomtime' is often recommended as being shade tolerant. In fact, that is how it first came to my attention.

It must not be as vigorous as 'New Dawn' since some people (like Graham Thomas) claim it doesn't climb much, and can be kept as a shrub. I did a Google image search to confirm that it does climb, and it does, but I didn't see any signs of it becoming a monster.

There is a photo at HMF showing thorns. To me they look somewhat less frightening than some of the 'Dawn' climbers, but it may still be thornier than what you need for your space.

It has been touted as very mildew-resistant, and shade-tolerant, but this Italian grower says it gets mildew for him if not planted in the sun, so it's hard to know what it would do for you: http://www.compagniadelgiardinaggio.it/blossomtime

That 'Bouquet Tout Fait' is beautiful thing. I don't grow it, though I would be quite willing to. Noisettes here are often shade-tolerant; they are certainly heat-tolerant. At least some must be fairly drought-tolerant once established since there are plenty of found roses of the Noisette type in places that often experience drought.

Many of the older types were classed by growers as 'pillar roses', which I interpret as tall and climb-y roses that aren't inclined to eat trees or houses... mannerly climbers. Other, less pure Noisette types such as those of the Gloire de Dijon and Lamarque tribes climb more vigorously, as you know. Thorniness is also variable, but most of the older types I've encountered have at least some; I can't speak to 'BTF'...

Hope this helps,

Virginia

My Bouquet Tout Fait has, up to now, had only morning sun and has done fine. Noisettes in general are said to tolerate part-shade well in climates like mine. That has been my experience thus far (I also have Nastarana, Narrow Water, and Aimee Vibert, all in part-shade positions -- that's one reason I have them, and they bloom more frequently here than the hybrid musks, which are more heat-sensitive).

I say "up to now" because my neighbor's ill-sited, humongous redwood tree, which towered over both our houses and stole all later-afternoon sun from the west side of my yard (not to mention regularly clogging my backyard drains with its invasive roots...), is now one week gone (hallelujah!!! fabulous day!!!). So, Bouquet Tout Fait and some of my tea-noisettes will now get added sunlight and air flow, to good effect I imagine.

BTF has few prickles; on my plant so far there are only a few on the oldest wood at the base, with the canes having no prickles. I would classify Francesca as viciously prickled (right up there with Jaune Desprez, who is one thorny beast!) and I had it in part shade, too. The canes were very robust so I needed to be quick to bend them to train it as a climber but, oh yes, it can serve as a climber. It was, in fact, much too vigorous here to be the small climber I wanted for its location, so now gone (though I intend to pot up its resprout for a better-suited location).

Lots of good suggestions here, thanks. I'm looking at Blossomtime and Columbian Cl., the latter was already in my 'general' wish list, as well as the two Noisettes which I had never heard of before, which look exceptionally beautiful. If someone could assure me they could grow well in my garden I would get those Noisettes in a jiffy. Alas, one never knows until one tries..

I only ever grew the bush form of Columbia, but it was a truly beautiful rose, healthy, very generous with its flowers and relatively thornless, as Daisy says. I did think of Blossomtime as soon as I saw this post, but hesitated to mention it, because it is thorny, but it is shade tolerant and mildew resistant.

I've never heard of Columbian Climber. I don't think any nurseries offer it here in the United States. Correct me if I am wrong.

I didn't know there was a climbing sport of Columbia ( HT Hill 1916 ) until Daisy showed Columbian Climber on another thread, so I looked it up. In 2009, Beales acknowledged that Columbian Cl was fact the sport released by Lens in 1929. I don't know if anyone has it for sale in the US, but I know the bush form sadly seems to be no longer available in Australia.

I had never heard of either the bush or the climbing form of 'Columbia'. Daisy's praise of it finally brought me to look it up.

Pity it's not available in the States, since if it is good in Crete it should be good in most of SoCal... OK, it should be half decent, since we all know that Crete is not the only reason all roses in Daisy's garden look ravishing.. it's Daisy's green thumb also.. not to mention donkey poop.

HMF reference states that it was available at one time in the 60s from Roses of Yesterday and Today so it just might still live in a garden somewhere.

HMF says that Kim Rupert and also the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden have it, so it must be available here somehow. Kim, if you see this, where did you get yours?

Jackie

I’ve grown Blossomtime for several years now as an arching
shrub and am very pleased with it. Canes
are a bit stiff, but it could be trained as a climber if you want to deal with
the thorns. It has been many years since
I’ve grown New Dawn, but if I recall correctly, Blossomtime is just about as
thorny. Other than the thorns, Blossomtime
has been a much better rose for me, though.
It blooms a lot more frequently and heavily, but in fairness, I grew New
Dawn in too much shade. My Blossomtime gets
at least 6 hours of daily sun. We rarely
have mildew issues in my climate, so I can’t comment on its resistance. Blackspot is a big problem here, but it is
fairly resistant…will spot some, but usually not too bad. For climate comparison, we have high humidity
here…average morning relative humidity is 85% and afternoon average is 65%. Our summers are hot…temps usually in the
nineties fahrenheit, but a few triple digit days here and there. We average around 55 inches of rainfall
annually and have around 50 days a year where temperatures dip below freezing.

Here’s a bush shot from May 2015…it was knocked down to only
a few inches after our harsh winter of 2013-2014, but didn’t have too much
dieback winter of 2014-2015 and is regaining its size. I’ve kept mine to around 4 to 5 ft high and wide.

I don’t have any good pictures showing its thorniness…if you
look close at these you can somewhat see the thorns

Lovely photos of 'Blossomtime', pat_bama... those blooms really get me each time. Stiff, thorny canes might not be fun to deal with if trying to get it to climb, although it does make a nice, bloomy shrub, in your photos.

Why am I feling so enabled?!

Virginia

Pat, those are such stunning, beautiful photos of Blossomtime, a rose I know little about, and now, thanks to your photos, would love to grow. Are you near Birmingham? I love Alabama, and you must be a good rose growing area in spite of the humidity. Diane

Thanks Virginia & Diane! Blossomtime is a spectacular rose here, so I think it would do well in SC, too, but no clue about Idaho. Diane, roses love our weather for growing & blooming, but unfortunately, almost every rose will blackspot here...it's just a matter of how badly. I'm on a farm in a tiny town (population 400) approximately 60 miles north of Birmingham. I work in Huntsville, but it would be about the same commute to Birmingham... am about half way between them. We are the punchline of many jokes, and most rightly so...but Alabama is, nonetheless, a beautiful state.

Mmm, those pictures of Blossomtime make it look like confectionery. I'd feel enabled but Blushing Lucy, SdMLV and my bonus Aimee Vibert have just taken the last possible spots for a pink thug.
Nik, since you mentioned semi shade, I was wondering if it might be a good place for the reds you were contemplating on a previous thread - being as a lot of them crisp in full sun.

Pat, co-incidentally, I also live on the outskirts of Birmingham - just the Birmingham 4000+ miles away!

My first Blossomtime was also grown as a shrub, but didn't survive a move when new decking was laid, but I replaced it this past winter, to grow over an arch. I had seen pat_bama's photos earlier in 2015, and was reminded what a beautiful, healthy rose it is in my climate. Melodye

I have a Blossomtime coming from ARE in a week! Thank you all! I had never heard of it till this forum. Someone wrote the rating were low because it was more a bush than the listed climber, but I don't care. I'll love it either way.

fduk, yes I too have thought about the reds.

Speaking of reds, I am very enamored of the blooms of 'Orfeo', which, along with being very full and well-scented, have substantial texture and sheen and each one lasts an exceptionally long time. Heat resistant, particularly for a red. My own-root plant receives afternoon sun only but blooms haven't burnt along the edges the way that 'Barcelona' et al. do. It is only moderately armed and the foliage is healthy.

My plant is relatively young, at three years in the ground, so I can't make definite statements about vigor (currently 10' - 12' and manageable, though, not rampant) and remontancy (it has repeated some, but I consider the plant immature and not at its full potential yet -- the spring flush extends at least six weeks).

From April 22, 2015:

Pat_bama, I would love for you to upload at least your full bush pic of Blossomtime on to HMF. It not only is a beautiful photo, but there's only one other pic of a entire mature-ish bush for Blossomtime. I'm sure others would enjoy it as much as I have.

John

John, I just uploaded the bush shot and a few different bloom shots to HMF. I refer to HMF all the time, but have been quite neglectful in adding photos and comments lately. I need to do better on that this year!