robo, thanks for that link to the documentary--I'm going to watch it, it looks fascinating.

Some of the posts seem to assume that there should be a congruence or correlation between Space and Stuff? I think many people view the two as very different and treat them very differently. Just as some people with mountains of money and nice houses still might prefer to wear hoodies, and people staying at the Ritz Carlton might prefer to bring in food from In-N-Out Burger -- and eat it sitting at the table with their family, using napkins and having a nice conversation.

There's also a book that came out of the UCLA study related to the video: Life at Home in the 21st Century. I read it -- it's really interesting. Among the findings (as best as I can recall):

1) the amount of "stuff" on your fridge correlates to the amount of stuff

2) fancy outdoor living areas are not being used

3) fancy master suites don't get used either

4) toys are taking over the world--or at least the average home

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Home-Twenty-First-Century-Families/dp/1931745617

I am working on mom's million dollar teardown.... I don't have the budget for Ikea

But on the other hand, I want a place where family can gather and not worry about reducing the resale value of my fine furnishings (remember that room in grandma's house that kids were not allowed in)

"There's also a book that came out of the UCLA study related to the
video: Life at Home in the 21st Century. I read it -- it's really
interesting."

I read the book too. It uncovers some sad truths indeed.

Our next door neighbors did a major backyard remodel three years ago. Fancy patio, expensive outdoor grill, all the bells and whistles. Guess what? They held only 1 (one) gathering there two years ago. The only time they come out in the backyard is to hose the paving, clean the furniture and trim the plants which happens about twice a month or less.

Guess who enjoys their remodel? My DH and I, our family and guests. Our balcony overlooks their yard. We have a decade-long habit of serving dinners on the balcony on balmy summer evenings. Their blooming rhododendrons and roses make for a very nice view!

"...indescribably wealthy" . Debbie, you are so right. My DIL has worked in the West Bank and in Africa. I constantly catch myself wanting this or that thing that I really don't need and remind myself to stop with the acquisitiveness (is that a word?). Not that I won't pick up something beautiful, but I do think about my materialism a lot more than I used to do.

I would say that the quality of most goods manufactured in China is lower than most goods made here. I used to be able to buy slacks or whatever from, say, LL Bean and know that if I chose the same style in different colors, they would all fit alike. Last time I went in the store, three pairs of size 4 summer pants in the same style all fit differently. I have not been back. I will not buy dishes since lead has been found in some products. I pretty much buy US, Canadian, or European products. Oh, and almost every shirt, sweater, or blouse made these days has skinny sleeves and I do not have big arms by any stretch of the imagination. All I want is a classic white blouse. Guess I will have to break down and actually go shopping in person. Yuck. Makes me nuts.

This thread makes me sad...

too much criticism of how other people live

chisue, Potemkin village. Ah, you've reminded me of dear Eastern European friends who survived the war. They're the only other people I've heard use that term. It's a good one.

This topic is so very personal since every one of us has a different budget, or fortunate to have no budget at all. We don't, or shouldn't, furnish a home with the intention of impressing others, but with things we like/love, can afford, and suit our/our familie's lifestyle. LR's/DR's are becoming obsolete as entertaing is more casual these days, and with it fine china/crystal have also gone by the wayside, but that doesn't mean good manners still aren't necessary and shouldn't be taught and expected by everyone~shirts required! I remember when the kids were younger I decided we would have Sunday dinners in the DR and how much the kids enjoyed it. The diference in the 'DR environment' seemed to bring out a certain politeness which didn't exist when eating in the breakfast room. Not that the kids behavior was usually rude, but please and thank you were used more frequently, as if 'the room' were dictating a certain behavior, or they were dining in a fine restaurant. It was the *experience* I thought was important.

I'm sorry VENDAZU, and hope you will reread this paragraph as it shows a certain 'air of superiority', and hopefully that wasn't your intent. It struck a nerve, and not in a good way.

"I'm not inclined to think that people's priorities are different when it comes to decorating their homes. I think interior decoration requires a big artistic education. It can be acquired in a formal way, or informally. If a person was lucky enough to have parents who lived "nicely"--even in a simple house…he learned a little bit about fabrics, upholstery, furniture construction, art, color and design. A corollary is basic housekeeping: what is needed to run a household well. I think housekeeping is also an art, requiring discipline, imagination and taste. A third issue is general cultural understanding: that honking big TV might mean that no one is taking the children to the art museum, or the parents aren't going to the opera or the orchestra concerts. You don't learn much about culture and art by watching the incessant football games."

Money does NOT dictate good taste, nor does a decorating degree. It's one's *own* personal perception.

Interesting and timely post on a blog I enjoy - emilyaclark.com. She is a young decorator/designer (?) with 5 children. She is currently decorating a new-to-them house and today's post is about her Ektorp sofas. She also uses flea market, craig's list finds, etc.

Pattycakes: Well, let's parse that very offending paragraph.

I was singing the praise of interior decorators in the first section. I am not an interior decorator, but I believe that one of the reasons houses are furnished with Ikea things is not just financial--rather, it is difficult to start from scratch and to imagine, much less execute, an original, beautiful space from start to finish without mistakes.

In the second section, I am singing the praises of home ec….yes, I'm old. Even women with simple houses and immigrant housewives knew "a place for everything and everything in its place." Model apartments, with tables laid, and Murphy beds, existed in the public schools to show the girls (yes, just the girls…) how to make a good corner, so that girls who came from backgrounds without nice things knew how to make what they had, look better. They learned to sew cute curtains, and to make a good meal, economically.

(My five year old grandchild at the ballet.)

The third section about culture: now, isn't it interesting that the thing that raises the most hackles is a comment about going to the opera. What can I say? I run an opera company and my son has a conducting position in a great opera house. And you still can't find one person out of a hundred who can iron a piece of linen.

Vedazu: I don't even know where to begin!

Vedazu....we are on the same page. But it is now not politically correct to suggest that people who have not had basic training in living could be aided in this respect, because it violates the current fiction that all choices are equally good. (All bodies are beautiful, etc.)

I hope I live long enough to take a grandchild to the opera :-) How wonderful that yours is growing up in that milieu.

I think the issue, Vedazu, is your apparent assumption that people who like football can't also like opera, museums and/or other cultural pursuits. Or that people who don't have a broad knowledge of history and culture don't have enough taste to furnish their home in a pleasing manner. And, wow, now you add that most of us are unable to keep our homes clean and organized, too. Just WOW!

I'm curious why someone who owns an opera company wouldn't choose to expand appreciation instead of reinforcing stereotypes that opera only appeals to snooty and pompous people.

ETA: While I haven't taken my grandchild to opera, I have taken her to Broadway tours of musical theater appropriate for her age, the ballet, an art museum, museums with cultural artifacts, and a few local history museums. She enjoyed a concert of Handel's Messiah in December although it was a little long for her attention span. I've also taken her clam digging, camping, and on short hikes, and to a pro baseball game. I want her to be well-rounded and exposed to all sorts of great things in this world. She's only 5 so there is much more of all of this is in her future. Possibly even opera.

Hmm. And you still can't find one person out of a hundred who can iron a piece of linen.

Well, I was taught how. I could pick it back up if I cared enough to own an iron.

Things that wrinkle easily I hang outside on a slightly breezy day, or I hang them after they dry, next to the shower so that the humidity gets the wrinkles out.

funkycamper, well said. When I read Vedazu's response, my jaw just dropped.

We have IKEA BRimnes beds in our new to us Arizona home. Two queens in master, two queens in second and two full eds in third. Looking to Ikea for a fourth bedroom. I love the storage and clutter control of Brimnes. I may do an ikea kitchen and we are now getting bids from kitchen design studios in our new city.

we have an interior designer for the rest of the house, currently empty. Am actually enjoying the space but we cannot entertain yet. We have a couple of folding tables and 3 office chairs from costco and several folding chairs. Reno on the floors will start in a week and take 4-5 weeks. Then some good furniture will be delivered. And placed into our ikea bedded house.

Since Thanksgiving, we have had varying house guests. I tell them it's luxury camping. They all love it. We hike, museum go and then they go back to their opera, symphony, jazz subscriptions. They love the guest beds of ikea--so comfy. Good sheets, too.

/rant

Being old or young has no relevance and can't be used an excuse to be "snooty and pompous ".

I'm 68 and if thought I was still living in the past I would be so disappointed in myself. Life is a journey of learning and experiences and change is important.

/end of rant

Do you think that Mother Theresa knew how to iron linen?

I grew up going to the opera/symphony and football games. My kids are doing likewise. We all enjoy both immensely. I think the point is to enrich your life with various experiences- not to be close minded and judgemental. Vedazu, despite your best efforts, you are certainly short changing your grandchild.

I deleted my previous comment because it read every bit as judgmental as that which I was refuting, but I do want to say that I'm grateful for how the world has changed in many, many ways. I appreciate knowing that the lifestyle choices my husband and I have made (I have a career, while he is a stay-at-home partner - and this out of choice, not necessity) are perfectly acceptable in today's culture. I believe there are many things to honor from the past, but there are also many things to rejoice at having left behind and advanced beyond.

As far as taking children places and introducing them to experiences, without apology I've taken my young niece to see One Direction numerous times and both she and I (her 53-year old AuntJen) have had the most wonderful times together singing, dancing, and even shrieking at the top of our lungs. Genteel? Absolutely not. Wonderfully memorable? You'd better believe it.

I think there are differing views on what constitutes "basic training in living." Maybe folks can just agree to disagree on what that is?

Lol, this thread has really veered off! I hope everyone is enjoying the ride :)

Kwsl: the picture just was taken recently, and seemed appropriate to how we began the conversation: Just looking at the curtain, designed by a great master, and executed by great masters, one sees color combinations, and about a dozen different possibilities for window treatments! It just seemed like a "visual" of what I meant about good interior designers having a big backlog of artistic experiences.

funkycamper: my opera company is in a small, rural place where virtually every seat is filled by what might be considered the proletariat: miners, electricians, custodians, lots of senior citizens, and, here and there, a few doctors and lawyers. I know them all, almost, and the ticket price is super low. You're talking to the wrong person--I'm way over there on the left. But that's the problem with these kinds of exchanges. We can't and probably shouldn't explain the details of our lives.

Oh contraire vedazu! Knowing from where you are coming, helps further my understanding not only who you are (in and of itself a fantastic endeavor), but also of others whom I will encounter again in my lifetime.

No need to be someone you're not. Be you.

Selcier, lol, the non sequiturs alone....

Vedazu,

Wow. I am taken aback by the condescending attitude dripping from your words. I come from a long line of simple, clean, family oriented, artistic folks. We do not need to hire others to teach us aesthetics and housekeeping. We live it.

If I choose to select furnishings from IKEA, I will. I get upset with the snobbery extolled on this board sometimes. If an item fits my simple Nordic tastes, I will use it. My home has antiques, Danish modern items, and also rustic finishes. They blend well (perhaps not well enough for your "refined" tastes.) Your "curtain" may appeal to you, but I would consider it a "hot, grungy mess"! Granted, my tastes, being so under yours are incredibly simple, but they create an atmosphere in my home that allows people from all over the world to come, visit, tarry, and relax.

That big TV? All the better to explore the arts with! By the way, our family doesn't watch sports, and nature and the arts are a major part of our lives. A large TV allows us to enjoy it. Why just attend a concert or a museum event? Play the instruments and create the art! Live outdoors, curl up to a fine film at night.

I have lived in areas where a 1500 sq ft home starts at 1 million. I now live in an area where many homes are the 100+ year old great Victorian homes -- and they are furnished with a nod to comfort and love -- never a need to hire in professionals for the "proper" look.

Your quote: "Anyway, families are stressed for time, society in general seems to extol a casual approach to life and no one knows how to iron a piece of linen. It's the way many people live now." - Why would anyone want to spend the time on linen anymore? Just to brag or look "down" on someone? Yes, you are "left". You have left graciousness on the doorstep.

My opinion.

[Quote] "..........my opera company is in a small, rural place where virtually every seat is filled by what might be considered the proletariat: miners, electricians, custodians, lots of senior citizens, and, here and there, a few doctors and lawyers."[End quote]

I learned a new word today: "proletariat". And I learned that my electrician husband is considered one!

___________________

workers or working-class people, regarded collectively (often used with reference to Marxism).

"the growth of the industrial proletariat"

synonyms:the workers, working-class people, wage earners, the working classes, the common people, the lower classes,the masses, the rank and file, the third estate, the plebeians;

the lumpen, the lumpenproletariat;

derogatorythe hoi polloi, the plebs, the proles, the great unwashed, the mob, the rabble;

humoroussheeple

"the voice of the proletariat"

_____________________

Oh, well. He's college educated, intellectual, kind, loving, hilarious, hard-working, and SUPER sexy in his tool belt. And even potty trained! He's awesome with my daughter, who lost her dad as a teen. Plus, I love his subtle Long Island accent. I'll keep my lowly plebeian proletariat. ;)

(This reminds me of a thread a few months ago regarding allowing service workers in homes, to use the restroom or whatever. The snobbery was unreal. 1905 called and wants it's social divisions back.)

So anyway, IKEA has a chaise I want.

MIsGG,

Perhaps it's because their noses are so high up in the air they think everyone else is below them.

A friend of mine says, "I may be lower class, but at least I have class...!)

If you are going to use Greek, the hoi polloi is redundant, hoi being an article.

(Sorry, I can't help it, the discussion has gotten ridiculous.)

I didn't write it, just copied it. Yeah, it is ridiculous.

When I grew up, like I said earlier it was some 60+ years ago, this was called "putting on airs". It was not considered gracious living. Just the opposite. I haven't had to recall that particular idiom in a long time.

Fake butt-hurt galore.

This all reminds me that my mother once went into a "high-class" shop in a neighboring town. My mother was what I always call middle-middle class, but she dressed very nicely (clothes being her one extravagance). In any event, the saleswoman "put on airs" (as someone said above) to the point that my mother left and never went back - she wasn't about to give her money to "THAT STORE". She was appalled that the saleswoman was anything other than polite.

The merits of ironing linen??? This attitude negates the entire women's movement.

Hmmm, maybe not - if we teach our sons to iron it. And change the beds and wash the linens.

This is now completely following the change in topic, but something that bothers me in my own community and could perhaps be a phenomenon across North America, is a sort of vein of anti-intellectualism. By this I do not mean at all that people are stupid, I consider the average person that I meet to be very intelligent and insightful and I enjoy rewarding conversations with many. No it is not a matter of ability but attitude.

When I think back to the Canada of the 1920s and 30s, particularly in my own family where on both sides we came from dirt poor backgrounds (tenant farmers and manual labourers), my grandparents were still interested in culture and higher learning, in classical music, in Shakespeare -- and not just the western Canon which I believe is being deservedly shaken up, they also valued intellectual conversation and debate. Moreover, I believe (not having been there), that both sets of grandparents were respected for doing so. Certainly there is a strong undercurrent in Nova Scotia of not getting above oneself. At the same time I believe that being scholarly and/or cultured was respected in a way that it is not today - it wasn't seen as snobbery so much as working to better oneself (I guess the definition of "better" could be up for debate).

The most interesting thing to me today is that somehow intellectualism is associated with snobbery and being uppity while materialism is not. It seems that having a lot of money is almost a down-home thing to do while being aspirational using the power of one's mind (even without riches associated) is very Lah di dah - even though working to improve one's mind could be seen to be based on merit compared to wealth which tends not to travel outside of the circles in which it is very cosy.

This worries me because in my community we need a lot of very smart and hard-working people to stay here and help with our economic problems. I also never want to have the sneaking suspicion that I am smarter than my politicians, unfortunately I have that feeling often these days particularly at the provincial level. Finally it doesn't worry me, instead makes me happy that many of the immigrant families in Nova Scotia don't seem to have absorbed this (imo) negative worldview and are encouraging their kids to push themselves and achieve both intellectually and materially. I wish we could convince more immigrants to come and stay here as I think our culture needs a little shot in the arm sometimes.

That being said, there are many things I appreciate about today's culture, and knowing that the vast majority of Canadian adults can read and write and aren't pushed out of school in grade 8 like my uncles were is huge. So there certainly have also been many gains.

Robo, I'd love to have a nickel for every time that bromide "what makes you smile" is repeated on GW. While I agree that method of decorating can result in pleasant surroundings, it often leads to a jumbled mess the "smilers" are unhappy with and brings them here questioning their choices. I also think it's wrong to equate that scattered approach to great design. But of course, one has to agree first that there is such a thing as good design, which anti-cultural sentiments do not support because it implies that one thing may be "better" than another.

what i would find more 'incongruent' is ikea furniture in an old victorian home- whether it's worth $150,000 or 2.8 million... the styles wouldn't match... ikea is too modern/scandinavian for that style of home... i actually think ikea could look very nice in some million $+ homes that were furnished in a more modern style!

i have seen several homes decorated by interior decorators whose style i really did not care for! being an 'educated designer' does not always = 'good taste'!!! imo, at least, those clients made a bad investment!

when my kids were 5, they would MUCH rather be at a ballet or a show than a football or baseball game- they only thought sports games were fun because of the junk food! i also loved taking our young kids to museums, etc, but once they got to be a certain age their interests changed!! they would have much rather stayed home and watch a movie on tv than 'go to a stupid museum again'!!

i like it all!! i like movies(on tv!), most sports(except boxing!!), the ballet, opera, musicals and concerts-- i have even 'grown into' the symphony!! i 'rebel' against the 'stuffiness' of some of it by usually wearing jeans to most everything!

robo, I very much agree with the anti-intellectualism that may be even more rampant on the US side of the border, and admire your thoughtful and intelligent way of expressing yourself in everything I've read from you, and also some others here. A well-educated mind, and it does not matter which path it took to get there, is an enrichment of one's self and the community as a whole. It is also much more open to things of merit that are "different" and perhaps a little out of one's comfort zone. Anything that stretches you in some way and perhaps makes you a little uncomfortable is a good thing. I'm trying to take my decorating style from fairly traditional to something a little more eclectic, although so far in a pretty minor vein. I had never looked at Ikea furniture, at least not knowingly, and it's not really my style, but there were some glass-fronted cabinets that I thought might be great for displaying some of my porcelain pieces. Unfortunately they only came in white or black, and I have to admit I have a houseful of that "boring brown furniture". The important thing is not to stagnate, and even minor changes can transform the home landscape to something less predictable.

Houzz had this picture of a Victorian furnished Mid-Century Style. It can be done!

Tanya Capaldo Designs · More Info

Very interesting discussion. I find myself agreeing with both sides of the discussion but I also think there is a lot of assumptions being made and twisting of words.

The only thing I found cringe-worthy was the use of the word, "proletariat." If you don't want to appear classist, then do not use this word.

And yet vedazu did not even call anyone proletarian. She merely said almost every seat in her opera house is filled with "what might be called the proletariat" in a clever riposte to someone questioning her motives for keeping opera among the "snooty and pompous." Does no one see the humor in this? Was her use of the word proletariat not foreshadowed by someone's previous mention upthread of Potemkin Village, are people seriously unaware of the Russian references of both? And, ironically, this particular use of the word proletariat is thrown back (after consulting a dictionary) as proof that the user is elitist? Interesting discussion, indeed!

I don't even remember what the original theme of this thread was, but I'm back to say that I have no problem with the furniture not matching the style of the house. I like Victorian architecture, but I would never in a million years furnish a Victorian home with Victorian furniture.

Sjhockey- I agree! I live in a Victorian, but my furnature is transitional. And with an IKEA chair in the MBR ;)

I have no IKEA, primarily because I like curvy things and IKEA is straight. Also my nearest IKEA is 3 hours away so no frequent browsing and improviso buying. I am not sure why IKEA is usually singled out, as furniture from Ashley's is bad -from what I understand- and so is a great deal of Mom's and Pottery Barn..

johnsoro25 -- IKEA in the MBR??? - Horror!!!

Bumbleebeez - I agree, I think there is a lot of snootiness against IKEA. I had a custom LR set made when I bought my last home. Spent many, many thousands of dollars for seating and waited 5 months to get it. Bought IKEA furniture to use in the meantime and moved it to a family room area (similar usage times) when the $$$ stuff finally arrived. 8 years later, the spendy stuff got given away when we moved and the IKEA items are still wearing like iron.

I've been lurking on this wild one.... it seems to have spun in many directions, triggered by words and different perspectives.

I've purchased many Ikea items in the past, from housewares to a freestanding cabinet/island. Many were temporary purchases in a temporary living situation, others were not. Some were decent quality, while others, frankly, are somewhat lacking. That "Lack" table I owned did not last long before the finish failed --- but the French-made enameled cast iron fondue pot is very good quality. The items fit a purpose at the time and were functional, and the right style at the right price point. At this time, I find the style vocabulary pretty limiting and the quality on many items less than I'm seeking. I'd gladly consider the cabinets for our loft, but I find the design flexibility lacking for my situation.

Back to the original topic, style and design aside, I see some very expensive real estate in SF outfitted with some visibly low quality furniture. I always attribute it to the transitory nature of the residents, the high cost of real estate, a lack of interest, personal values or the spending priorities of the owner. Without knowing the person, I can't really speculate on the motivations. But it does happen, a lot.

loonlake-- yes, that picture does look great!!!! :)