Are the windows in the Kitchen already there or are they part of the addition?

Do you think you need three eating/table spaces? You have a Nook, island, and a DR.

Based on your latest comment on the other thread, it appears you're a form/looks first, function second. If that's the case, then I hesitate to do too much b/c I'm a strong function-first person. It is easy to make a functional kitchen look nice, it's almost impossible to make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional w/o starting over.

"...I've thought about a prep sink but don't want to lose the symmetry with the range and windows. I suppose we could still fit a small prep sink in the existing layout in between the range and one of the hutches (without actually moving the range)..."

No, you can't - at least not and have a functional space.

If you eliminate the end cabinets that go to the counter, you might be able to, but it still wouldn't be that great. You still have the issue of the DWs/sink and the range and the DWs/sink and the prep space on the range wall. With no prep sink on the range wall, you will prep in the island next to the sink - along with the cleanup zone and dirty dishes. BTW...dirty dishes will be front and center if your cleanup zone is in the island...even with a raised counter.

There are better layouts, but they may not have the perfect symmetry you want.

Having the refrigerator and "snack cabinet" out of the main sink-stove path is good.

I'm looking at the distance between the island and the "eating area" chairs, and the island seating and the sofa. If you have 4'10" between island and table, the usable path when the area is occupied will be as little as 2 feet (someone needs about 30 inches to pull the chair our and sit down, tall people use more, bar stools use more because they are awkward to get into). That's cramped, and could be dangerous is someone leaves a stool or chair in the path.

The 11 foot island may be a problem if you want natural stone

Two eating/sitting areas within 5 feet of each other? Especially when the island seating wastes the space that could be shelves or cabinets facing the great room.

The two windows are new. We're basically doubling the size of this room by pushing out the back wall.

I expect that we will use the kitchen table for most meals. We do host casual dinners about once a month with 9-11 people (adults+kids). I figure the kitchen table and island seating can accommodate this many people comfortably. Otherwise, I think the island seating will be used when we are cooking and kids want to sit and do homework or a project. The dining room will most likely be used primarily as my home office. We couldn't find a way to fit a separate office in the house. I work from home 2 days a week and plan to use the dining room for that so I don't have to clear the table off every time someone wants to eat (which is what I have to do now since I currently work at the kitchen table). We also will use the dining room occassionaly for meals (holiday meals or when we have people over - adults can eat in the dining room and kids in the kitchen...). We considered not having a formal dining room but I think it seems strange not to have a dining room for special occassions. We considered making the dining room space a playroom, enclosed office or a den, but these options didn't seem to work as well for various reasons.

I guess we won't have a prep sink. So prep and cleanup will be primarily on the island. I'm not sure how we could rearrange the layout to make things more functional. We did consider at one point putting the range and main sink on the same wall side by side. i assume then a prep sink would go in the island. I think we didn't like this because of the lack of symmetry but also because we didn't like either the range or the sink being close to the kitchen table. I originally did not want the main sink in the island because of the mess - that is one of the reasons we are now planning a large sink and two dishwashers (to minimize the mess issue). You can still easily see a mess on the counter where the range is so i think it would be a concern even if the sink were on that counter. I think dealing with the mess is a trade off of having an open kitchen (and is another reason why I thought we should have a formal dining room).

I may ask our architect/designer about reducing the island size slightly. I think it could work better at 10.5x4.5. The island is deep enough to include storage cabinets on the side with the stools. We plan to keep stuff in there that is used infrequently. I also am concerned about clearence between the island/couch and island/table. Our designer feels the clearences are ok. I'm also going to ask about taking 6-12 inches from the master bedroom to widen the great room as someone else suggested. We probably would prefer natural stone for the island - how large can we go and use natural stone?

I think the d/w is an issue across from the range. I think we will either have to put the sink across from the range or we will have to separate one of the dishwashers from the sink.

I have only one DW, and it's in my prep zone because that was a trade-off for being able to have the range in a location where it could be vented to the outside. So I'm one of those who settled and adapted.

I don't see a problem with having the second DW across from the range, as long as you don't plan on keeping it open while prepping/cooking, or someone else is loading/unloading it while you are standing at the range. You have a DW on the other side of the sink, for things you want to load as soon as you've used them for prep. How many times do you take something from the oven and put it directly into a DW? Or vice versa? I would not want a DW separated from a sink--to me that would be more inconvenient than stowing a pot in the sink until the DW can be safely opened.

Although I still would make the island slightly narrower than 5' because I think it's easier to clean, 57" between the edge of the table and the back of the couch is fine (your designer is right). I'll measure exactly tonight but we have 60" between the edge or our table and the edge of the island and it's generous. Unless you're huge, you don't need 30" to pull out the chair, and when you're seated, a) there's plenty of room behind you, and b) you're seated, so there probably aren't too many people walking behind you then anyway.

Most granite slabs are between 9' and 10' long although most of the ones I saw in our local granite yard recently appeared to be a bit smaller.

One day over 20 yrs. ago I had an epiphany of sorts when I realized I did most of my prep beside the range. No matter how small the space was. I was frustrated because I had lived in many places with small kitchens and almost without exception the counter space next to the range was tiny. Counters on either side of the sink may not have been large, but each side was easily double in comparison. Why so much space devoted to dirty/clean dishes I wondered?

Over time I realized a few more things about how *I* used a kitchen. 95 + % of my cooking is done on stovetop burners. I don't like walking across an aisle with a cutting board full of cut vegetables, or raw meat. I like even less crossing an aisle with a big pot of pasta in boiling water. I know it's a personal preference, perhaps an idiosyncrasy - something other people could not possibly care less about. ;) But I know me, and have come to know what works for me and what doesn't.

Looking at your proposed layout I thought," wow! great space on both sides of range! " Followed by, "with all that space to work with, why wouldn't s/he put a sink on that run?" Why deal with dirty dishes on an island if you don't have to? Perhaps your prepping/cooking/cleaning style is very different from mine. I urge you to think in depth about how you really use your kitchen. If you cook quite a bit, your current layout may not be the best one for you.

To address the extra fridge/freezer question you asked: I think it comes down to what you need to store. I have a separate r/f in a utility room that is only used during the summer. We use it for beverages and occasional food overflow for entertaining during those months. I also have a separate 3 ft. freezer used year round because I do make-ahead & freeze cooking. Again, think about what your needs are: do you need more space for juice boxes/kid snacks/ lunch stuff? Beer/wine/ soda for parties? If you make one pan of lasagna why not make two and freeze the second one? If it's stuff you need to access daily finding space in the kitchen is optimal, otherwise, garage or basement may be fine.

I like your layout, and being someone who has her one and only sink in the island, have lots of experience with the setup. My setup flows similar to yours but on a much smaller scale; my open plan space is only 24' x 24' and functions as kitchen, living, and dining room. My DW and sink are across from the range. I never leave the DW open, much less load while opening the oven. I have a large, deep sink. Dirties are never hanging around too long in my house, and as you said, would be visible whether the sink is on the perimeter or the island. You may want to look at slabs befor you finalize your island size and layout. I wouldn't want a seam. My original marble slab was 9' x 4 1/2', but ended up with an 8x4 1/2' walnut island because of fabrication issues. Have you determined where your dishes and glassware will be stored? That was important to me in the final placement of my DW. Where will you stand when you prep? The trash is a bit far from the sink. Have you considered trash/recycle pullouts under the sink? I like the location of your MW and coffee. It's quite suitable for entertaining and out of the prep area. Mine is on that same isle and we have no problem filling the water. Will your pantry be pullouts/roll outs? I think you will have ample room for staples especially with your extra storage around the corner. I store a tremendous amount in my 15" pullouts. I have 4'8" between my island and the sofa and 4' between the side of the island and the table. Although it would be nice to have more space, we've not encountered any dangerous nor overcrowded situations I've got a 90 lb lab and a toddler that love chasing each other around the island and through all the traffic paths.

Regarding your fridge question, I have a 36" full depth French door fridge and love it. I have not survived with only one fridge for a very long time though. I have a second side by side in my garage. I keep the most used items in the house and longer term storage and beverages in the garage. I always freeze leftovers in individual serving sizes and they stack nicely in the side by side freezer. I like your idea of the fridge drawers near the eating area. My sis had two stacked on the end of her island next to her breakfast nook and they were quite convenient for grabbing drinks. If you plan for your 36" bottom freezer and two fridge drawers, you could always add a fridge or freezer to your garage later.

My only suggestions are to layout where you will be storing everything, only order drawers or pullouts for base cabs, and have a good idea what stone you want for the island before finalizing your island design. Also, a very large sink with two faucets would be benefial, especially with a large island. I highly recommend the Kohler Stages45 and 2 Kohler Karbons.

I don't think the oven and dishwasher will be open at the same time very frequently. We cook on the stove far more than we use the oven. I do, however, think we will want to open the dishwasher when someone is standing at the range cooking. My husband does most of the cooking and i do most of the cleaning. I often am cleaning up an earlier snack or prep dishes while he is cooking. Sometimes we make the kids dinner first and I may be cleaning up the kids dinner while husband is cooking our dinner. While we would have 2 d/w, I feel the one behind the range may be our "main" d/w because of its location closer to the table. We will likely store our dishes and glassware in a drawer in the island or in the cabinets closer to the table. Hence, it makes sense that our primary sink for dishes would be the one closer to the table (and currently opposite the range). The other d/w likely would be for pots and pans, mixing bowls, etc which I am guessing will be stored on the other side of the range further from the table.

If we gain another foot of width in the room (by taking space from the master bedroom), maybe we can widen the aisle 6 inches. Then we could just leave the current placement as there would be more room to open the dishwasher.

We currently have our range and sink opposite each other and offset although it is a galley kitchen with a wider distance between the two sides (probably at least 60" aisle width if not more). The fact that the sink is across an aisle from the range is not that big an issue for us. The lack of space (counter space and storage space) in our current kitchen is a MUCH bigger issue. We currently prep near the sink and then move across the aisle to the range. I guess we are used to this setup so I haven't noticed it being an issue. I've never had a sink on the same side as my range. My last kitchen was a small u-shaped kitchen and the sink and range were at an angle to each other.

llucy - do you think we can fit a sink next to the range? would you recommend moving the range so it is off center and adding the main sink to that wall? Or leave range where it is and just put a smaller "prep" sink between the range and one of the "hutches"..

I'd strongly encourage you to stop guessing and figure out specifics before finalizing your layout. Measure how much space your dishes and glassware will take, so you'll know how wide you want the drawers to be. Ditto for pots and pans. Measure the height of the tallest pot or tray or pyrex dish to be sure the drawers are sufficiently tall. Same for utensils. Figure out the where each items should/will go (pots and pans near the cooktop and prep area, dishes and glasses near the dishwasher for example).

It's unfortunate you have two threads going on the same issue. It makes it hard to follow.

I'm glad you're going to look into stealing inches from the bedroom to give yourself a bit more space in the great room. You have enough space for island seating behind the sectional but those extra inches will make things feel more spacious and that is never a bad thing.

I'm reposting the plan I put on your other thread yesterday but I've tweaked it a bit.

I would make the eating alcove a bit deeper so the entire table is within the alcove. Those extra inches shouldn't cost much more at all but those inches within the house will be very valuable in making things more spacious and give you better flow. It also give a bit more clearance from the range.

With the extra inches you're stealing from the master bedroom, I would use some of them to make the aisle between perimeter cabinets and island 54" wide. This gives you more room to have oven and DW doors open without being obstructions. As does moving the range down away from both DW's.

My program is wonky when trying to draw curved lines so the red slashes in the island should be rounded corners. I'd make the eating side more oval shaped so people aren't just all staring ahead cafeteria-style. It's more conducive to conversation to have a curve so people can see each other better.

I'd go for function on the perimeter even if I would lose symmetry on the windows. Then I'd add a prep sink. That nice, long stretch of prep counter on the range wall will make working in the kitchen so much more pleasant and efficient. And you can enjoy the view while prepping.

Others were posting while I was writing, but I'd like to add to what llucy said. I always prepped next to the stove until I took a risk and moved my sink to the island. My primary beef with my old setup was that it was always a cluster. Everyone wanted to see what I was doing, grab bites of what I'm chopping and generally getting in my way. And I always had my back to everyone. This new setup allows me to stage many different areas. Cooking last week was a joy. The island had appetizers set out, I had food in different stages of prep both on the sink side of the island and on my 8' stretch of counter to the left of the range. Finished items go out of the way on the 4' area the right of my range. My beverage/coffee area has the MW and Breville. Items needing warming and last minute heat up stay on that counter. I clean as I go and dirties go right in the DW and others hide in my large, deep sink. Traffic flow was great without people running into each other or getting in my way. I had helpers and a lab, cat, and 11 mo old grandson under foot but not in the way;)

Yes, it does have to do with cooking style and I have a new style and love it. I use lots of fresh veggies and love not having the waste mess by the stove. I transfer my prepped food in trays with a pivot and finish at the stove freeing the sink for others. I do all my baking and dry prep on that 8' counter. In my kitchen, this layout is a workhorse with good flow and I no longer experience the clusters of old. I cook a lot and all from scratch and my layout works great. I love having the alternatives it offers. I know many on GW are so opposed to having an only sink on the island. It should be thought through and based on our personal cooking styles and needs. It fits mine.