I don't grow both -- just 'Rose du Roi -- original'. One distinguishing characteristic of 'Rose du Roi -- original' and sports thereof is the funky extra sepal. You may not find it on every bud, but you will find it on quite a few. The 'Rose du Roi -- of commerce' doesn't have it. So if you're not sure which you already have, look for that feature. I have a pic showing the extra sepal on mine from 2014 -- see below.

There's also a pic showing it on HelpMeFind -- see link below.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.174183

I'd also like to pass on something I learned about mine -- you'll want to give it a hard pruning in Spring. I left mine alone to see what it did, and what it did was leaf out and bloom only at the top six inches or so of each cane, leaving the 3-4' canes very top-heavy and requiring staking.

May 2014 -- 1 year after coming as a band

May-June 2015 -- note how top-heavy the canes are once they start blooming, and even with support, they're really leaning. The first pic below shows it nice and upright before the first flush.

I didn't want to sacrifice the buds that had already formed, so I put up with it until the last had opened. There are some pics on HelpMeFind showing this habit as well. Since many of the pics there are NOT of the 'Rose du Roi -- original', I'd suspect that the 'Rose du Roi -- of commerce' has a similar habit.

I experimented by cutting half of the canes back to about 12-24" after the first flush, and they responded by leafing out and branching, giving another flush about a month later, with sporadic blooms until about November, when I took the pic below.

It was a little scary at first, since I was left with totally naked
canes after the haircut. But once they started leafing and branching, I
repeated it on the rest. After cutting it back hard, the branching lower down seems to have made it more self-supporting. For Spring 2016, I'm going to cut the canes back to between 18 and 24".

:-)

~Christopher

Oh, and one other thing -- you mentioned how whichever version you have seems different from other Portlands you have tried. That may be because many "Portlands" are really Hybrid Perpetuals which are "Portland-like". If you have a catalog from Vintage Gardens, look for the article on Damask Perpetuals by Philip Robinson. In it he describes the few remaining "Portlands" that show little or no China influence as being "true" Damask Perpetuals, and mentions some which are traditionally called "Portlands" but are really "Hybrid Perpetuals showing Portland influence". So if your other "Portlands" are things like 'Jacques Cartier' aka 'Marchessa Bocella', or 'Comte de Chambord' aka 'Mme Boll', then yes, it will be quite different. The roses Philip Robinson calls "true" Damask Perpetuals are essentially hybrids descended from Gallicas and 'Quatre Saisons', have little or no obvious China influence, and include 'Duchess of Portland', 'Indigo', 'Marbree', "Pickering Four Seasons", 'Delambre', 'Duchesse de Rohan', and a handful of others. I can't seem to find the article online, but I did find it referenced on the last page in the link below:

http://www.rose.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Julie-Matlin-Perpetuals-or-Portlands-Are-You-My-Mother.pdf

:-)

~Christopher

Thank you so much for the replies and the great pictures and advice. My Rose du Roi arrived as a band in late fall, so it's still small with only a little foliage. So, to be honest, I can't tell which of yours it resembles the most. It hasn't bloomed yet, and I don't expect it to until the Spring. Getting the verified commerce one will help because then I can compare the foliage between them.

I know the article you mentioned, Christopher. I had read it before and went looking online for it recently and couldn't find it either. I thought I remembered saving it in PDF form some years ago, and luckily I found the file. If you like, I can send it to you. I was using the article as a guide, and the Portlands I have tried are from his "true" list: Duchesse de Brabant and Pickering Four Seasons. I've also tried Rose de Rescht, but if I remember the article correctly, he was on the fence about that one, saying it showed some china influence, but that it was very muted.

Anyway, those three portlands got damask crud very badly. As far as the foliage goes, I always found the portland foliage to be really rough textured, and this Rose du Roi seems to have very smooth leaves compared to them. At the same time I got Rose du Roi, I also got Marbree, and that one has the roughly textured leaves I associate with the portlands. Neither RdR or Marbree are doing anything at the moment, which doesn't surprise me because it's their resting time.

I'm looking forward to what spring has in store for them.

I have the file saved, but wasn't sure how to share it. I'm glad you have it as well. Ah, so you're saying yours is different, but in the other direction. As for the "crud", it's been mentioned recently on another post. For me, I notice that the "crud" seems to happen on the first set of leaves from Spring, occurring some time after the first flush has finished here, say July. I found that snipping the "cruddy" leaves off and giving the canes a haircut at that time prompts new foliage and another flush in a month or so. This makes me think of some other perennials whose leaves look "sad" after their bloom -- which, perhaps not coincidentally, is "rose season" -- and how "the books" say to cut them back to prompt fresh new foliage and (perhaps) another wave of bloom. Alchemilla is one such plant, as are many Geranium cultivars.

:-)

~Christopher

Have you ever seen the purple sport of Rose du Roi? called Rose du Roi A Fleurs Pourpre. David Austens nursery in the U.K. sells it. I cherish this rose because a couple days after the blooms open they turn purple and then like a Gallica they show many hues of mauve, lavendar and lavender-ash. I looked for years for the rose and then just when vintagegardens.com was closing I found it in their catalog under H.P.s I had been looking under Damask Perpetuals. It is a small plant, a freind of mine got hers at the Old Rose Celebration years ago with Luanne and she asked Luanne to choose one rose for her because she only had room for one rose, and she has had it in a pot on her balcony ever since. I;m hoping theres enough proper wood to propagate from it this winter. It is the most fantastic mauve rose I;ve ever seen and it has such a rich perfume. I desperatly covet it.

Lux.

Alana, I think you got 'Rose du Roi A Fleurs Pourpres'. I think there are a few different roses going around under that name, as well as under 'Rose du Roi'. Nowadays, most of the 'Rose du Roi A Fleurs Pourpres' going around seem to be Hybrid Perpetuals -- and I wonder if they're actually something along the lines of 'Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee'. If there was an original purple sport of 'Rose du Roi -- original', it would share the sport-parent's petal formation, foliage, and funky extra sepal. This pic on HelpMeFind shows the petal formation and funky extra sepal found on 'Rose du Roi -- original'. In any case, if I had the room, I'd get it myself. Whatever its real name, I share your love for fragrant dark purplish-red roses.

:-)

~Christopher

P.S. I found this pic from 2014 that is about the closest to correct color that my iPhone could get with 'Rose du Roi -- original'.

Chris it say's on HMF that Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallée may actually be Souviner Du Dr Jamain, and I grow him, and Rose du Roi isn't like him at all to me. The Photo's on HMF blooms of Souvenir D'Alphonse Lavallee don't look like mine either, shape-wise, or color. Here's a picture of my SDDJ.

Here's a hip.

Alana8aSC: I realize it's dangerous to identify roses from a few photos, but I wonder if there's a possibility that your plant is "Granny Grimmetts?" Your first photo, of the purplish-red flower, looks exactly right for that rose. Link to my photos of "Granny Grimmetts" In my photos, the color balance is mostly wrong, as so often happens in photos of red roses; your purplish red is true to what mine do.

Well Malcolm_manners I'm not sure but I did order Granny Grimmetts from Linda this year and I can compare them this spring. I was in a wreck not long after recieving it and I can't recall if it bloomed or not. I just know I ordered the above as Rose du Roi, but it doesn't hurt to compare, my petals could also be different because it's it more shade. I'm moving it ( RdR) or who ever it is this spring into more sun. I was mostly just sharing mine ( my rose du roi) to show different comparison. What ever it is it is loved.

You all have me really anxious to see my Rose du Roi bloom. The leaves on mine have more texture than the picture of Souvenir du Docteur Jamain, but less than my Marbree.

I've also noticed a couple of blackspotted leaves on mine, and so far it is progressing like normal blackspot. It doesn't seem to be turning into the horrible crud.

I would love to see a picture when it blooms! I even ordered me another from Burlington to compare mine with! Where did you get yours bellegallica?

The one I have now I got from Burlington, so if the one in your picture above is from her, then we have the same plant. If you have pictures of the leaves and canes I'd like to see those. I will try to get a decent picture when mine blooms.

I have a "commerce" one on order at Rogue Valley.

The picture above of the hip, thorns and leaf is my Rose du Roi, I got mine from Longagoroses. I ordered another from Burlington for spring delivery 2016 to compare. I love mine though whatever it is and will look forward to seeing yours bloom!

Christopher I just noticed that my Rose du Roi looks like Rose du roi of commerce on RVR website, and mostly Tammy's pictures on HMF. Our hip pictures and leaves look the same as well. There do seem to me to be two different roses in HMF pictures of Rose du Roi of commerce. I will update that I carry the one of commerce instead of the original. I will still look forward to pictures of yours when it blooms bellegallica, as well as bush habit.

I've never seen the "of commerce" in person. I wonder if the RVR version is the same as the Vintage Gardens version since their bloom pics are so different. There's probably several versions out there, and I can't say which is a "better" plant. I picked the "original" because it seemed that Vintage Gardens was the only one selling it, and I knew they'd be closing. I wanted to get the one that likely wouldn't become available again, which was a reasoning that led me to several others that don't seem to be in commerce since they closed.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, that seems to me to be a very prudent decision. I suspect rarity influences many of our decisions here.

I will certainly try to take good pictures of both mine--should they appear to be different.

I went back to the Phillip Robinson article on Damask Perpetuals to read again what he said about the two versions of Rose du Roi. For those who might be curious, here is what he said:

"Already mentioned is the Portland Rose from around 1770, which was important in the development of the class. From this was bred the very important but very elusive Rose du Roi of 1812. The rose currently grown in the United States under this name was, according to Léonie Bell, imported around 1954 from the Kordes Nursery in Germany by Richard Thompson, author of Old Roses for Modern Gardens.

I have grown this rose for a number of years and had no reason to suspect that it was not the true variety. In the meanwhile, I came to grow Panachée de Lyon, a striped or parti-colored sport of Rose du Roi, introduced in 1895. This was presumably the last of several such sports of Rose du Roi. All were very unstable. This has also proved to be the case for the clone that I grow. Usually the blossoms are a rather bland rose pink that by a stretch of the imagination could be the “flowers salmon” of William Paul. Other times they are true to character and this same pink is interspersed with contrasting petals of a rich, smoky red. Occasionally a branch will revert completely to this dark, smoky red. Here we surely have the original Rose du Roi. Vintage Gardens has worked with this rose to obtain stable clones from which to produce plants for sale.

Now there is the question of the identity of the Rose du Roi imported by Richard Thompson. Could this be Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres? If so, it is not a sport of the true Rose du Roi since they differ widely in prickles, foliage, receptacle, flower form, and flower size. We do know that the rose currently distributed as Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres is truly a Hybrid Perpetual, probably in some way related to Général Jacqueminot. It can also be determined that the Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres that Mrs. Keays documented in her book Old Roses is not this rose imported by Mr. Thompson. In the American Rose Annual of 1932, her description of the prickles is the most readily comparable point. Her rose had prickles both large and small, while the Kordes Rose du Roi is nearly completely thornless with smooth wood. For the time being it is best to let this rose remain the Rose du Roi (of Commerce)."

Thanks bellegallica for sharing!! I really enjoyed reading that!

I've been going round and round on classification of my roses lately, including the Damask hybrids, so this is useful. Thanks for the discussion, folks!

Bumping this thread for Lux, does mine look like your friends rose?