can you post a larger pic of your layout? and include what's below and above?

above looks to have something bumping out on the left and doors? opening inward on the right... what's in the bottom far right corner?

I can't seem to get pics to post here lately and don't know why. I use the photo icon at the bottom of text box. used to work for me, doesn't now.

Can you post the whole house floor plan? I think there must be a more efficient and accessible way to arrange your mudroom/pantry/laundry/butlers pantry.

What are the sill heights in the breakfast nook? Do those windows face the side yard?

Benjesbride, thank you for posting an image of the floor plan. I can't provide the entire first floor plan. This segment had to be enlarged multiple times to get it to be legible.

In the breakfast nook it's 18.5 in. from the floor to the bottom of the window sill. Yes, those windows face an enclosed side yard.

Desertsteph, I'll try to describe the other nearby rooms. The double doors on the right just above the refrigerator area lead to the formal living room. The arch on that wall on the other end of the refrigerator area leads to a hallway with wide arches to the living room and down to the foyer. The double doors in the keeping room, of which only one is operable, lead to a covered patio.

The butler's pantry is in the lower right corner of the image and has a sink on one side and a wine chiller on the other side. Beyond (below?) the butler's pantry is a powder room (unseen in this image.) Beside the butler's pantry, to the left, is a laundry/utility room. Cabinets on the far (not kitchen) side include a sink and space for a d/w and refrigerator. Both spaces are used for storage instead of appliances. Off the butler's pantry to the right of the image is the dining room, which is about 18 X 18.

An opening at the bottom end of the breakfast nook is a small hall that leads to a bedroom, bathroom and mudroom, and from there to a sun room with french doors to a patio, and then garages. Dh has asked if it might be feasible to replace the fixed pane window in the breakfast nook with a french door or nice slider (opening on its left) to provide better access to the side patio where he keeps his gas grill. He suggested then having just a small L-shaped bench along the 8 ft. wall with a narrow rectangular table. I'm concerned about the cost.

You may be able to see approx. 28 in. deep walls indicated at each end of the two sides where we have appliances. The interior of those walls form wide arches above the wall cabinets.

Benjesbride, I hate to think of the added cost of redoing the pantry, butler's pantry and laundry room. I've considered replacing the counters and sink in the butler's pantry to tie in with a new kitchen, but not more extensive work. I don't use that laundry room very often because I have a w/d in my master closet as well as another laundry room upstairs (that's only being used as a big closet.)

Hope this answers your questions. Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Is there a possibility that limited mobility might cause you to start using the main floor bedroom as your primary bedroom? While you're renovating the kitchen space, I thought it might be good to consider long-term accessibility.

Interesting problem - and one I can relate to. I'm 5'2", hubby is 6'3" ( And I hear "Its right here in the upper cabinet at eye level -whaddya mean you didn't see it?...sigh LOL!) And I too am disabled after an injury and use a mobility Service Dog (balance assist)

(1) Range hood control. Have the electrician run additional wiring back through the wall and down and then put a second set of switches on the wall at counter level.

(2) On the cooking area what about this. You have a run of 134 inches. At one end put the 30" wall ovens - then 22 inches of counter (and upper cabinet lowered to 16 inches) - 36" cooktop (storage below) - 22 inches of counter (same again on the upper cabinet) - 24" microwave built-in on the counter with cabinets above. You don't have to reach up for the microwave and he doesn't have to reach down. You have enough space to put down something coming out of any cooking appliance.

(3) " On the wall across from the wood table there seems to be enough room for additional cabinets."

What about a buffet kind of thing with cabinets that have either with open shelves or glass doors or even dish rack for the good china above (plates stand up and fit into slots)? It would look like furniture but actually be built in. You could even put furniture style legs on it so it would be 12 or 15 inches off the floor.

If you do that though, it could limit the ability to have seating at the island. Normal allowance for seating is 40" from the 'table'. You have 68 inches. If you kept the built in cabinets to 18 or 20 inches max depth (furniture depth), you might sneak by.

(4) Breakfast/nook seating. You said the bottom of the window is 18 1/2 inches from the ground. I just measured the distance from the floor to the top of the seat of my birdcage Windsor chairs -- 17 3/16 inches. A seat would come in under the windows.

Looks like there should be enough room. In an RV or boat the built -in dinette area is normally 5 feet (end of table to other end) and 6 foot wide ( 2 seats and 36 inch table. With that 8ft wall you could even wrap the seat around the end of the table (L shaped seat built-in) and use chairs of the other long side of the table.

(5) Refrig & freezer. DO I understand you are thinking of 30" wide under-counter freezers? If you dislike getting down to search bottom cabinets, you will not really care for that. (Had them in the boat galley - whatever you wanted was always in the back and you were down on your knees)

Or do you mean 2 frig/freezers with freeze on the bottom? If you put them right next to each other, that would leave 66" on that wall. Maybe upper cabinets that start on top of the counter like a hutch? There is no rule that says "thou must have counter from the front edge to the wall"

(6) Just thought of this. If you did extra deep counters on the stove wall -maybe 27 or 28, then you could bring the upper cabinets down to counter level and still have 15-16 inches to put down a pot or cookie sheet. That is as wide as the typical chopping board or pastry board that you can pick up and move.

Welcome Aipreno!

Could you draw up the first floor by hand? We really need a visual to see how the traffic flows around and through the Kitchen. You can download graph paper from the web and either print it out, hand draw on it, & upload it -or- paste it into PowerPoint, Paint, or similar & draw up the first floor that way. Label the rooms and overall measurements.

I have a few comments/questions....

First, I'm assuming this is the "old" plan since you said it's the "original" plan. Is this what it still looks like today? (I think so since you said you only added lights - but I want to be sure.)

How much are you willing to change? I'm asking, b/c right now, it's not very functional. You may say it's fine b/c you've been using it all these years, but when looked at objectively, it really isn't very good.

You don't have much workspace where it's needed most - in what appears to be the Prep Zone (left of the cleanup sink) in the island. If you prep on the back of the island (where the prep sink is), then the island is a barrier to the refrigerator.

In addition, the aisle b/w the refrigerator and island is a bit wide....even for a wheelchair (if needed in the future).

So, again, how much are you willing to change to make this Kitchen better? The goal would be to make it easy to work in taking your mobility issues into account, getting more workspace where you need it most, and seeing what we can do about your "wants".

How important to you are the "looks" of the Kitchen? Are you a function-first person or looks-first person? It's far, far easier to make a functional Kitchen look nice than it is to make nice-looking but dysfunctional Kitchen functional (without starting over).

I ask b/c of the arches you have in the Kitchen - do you really need them? If you do, does everything have to be centered on them?

Ovens...be aware that wall ovens will take up a lot of lower cabinet storage space. Given your height and mobility issues, if you want two wall ovens, I agree they need to be single ovens - but - at a height higher than just under the counter. Wall ovens mounted under a standard 36" tall counter are lower to the floor than ovens in a range. If the oven in your range is too low for you right now, these will be worse. I suggest a raised counter over the ovens - which might work better for your DH b/c he's tall - and standard counters elsewhere. I would have to play around with them to see what can be done.

+++

You have a lot of wants. It will be difficult to give you your wants as well as a functional Kitchen without making major changes. Before I try, are you open to seriously considering major changes - including, possibly, removing the walls flanking the range run and the refrigerator run and pretty much gutting the existing island, cabinets, etc., in the Kitchen?

Benjesbride, that's a good thought. Actually, we have a main floor master bedroom in addition to that guest room. One of the main reasons for buying this house was the two main level bedrooms. The large second bathroom has multiple grab bars and was used by my 90 yr. old in-laws a few years ago. Our bathroom had some work done after a shower pan failure and it now also has grab bars (not institutional looking ones) and is wheelchair accessible.

I don't feel a need to go with strict ADA guidelines in the kitchen. If we get to that point, we'll probably want to build a smaller house.

Ann Scott-Arnold, thank you for those suggestions. I especially like the idea of buffet type cabinetry along the outside wall. That's something I'd like to do even if we don't go ahead with a full scale remodel.

If I'd had any idea how long we'd be here, I would have had a second vent hood control installed years ago. If we decide not to remodel, that second control will be done.

About the refrigerators - yes, I meant two 30" wide frig/freezers with the pull-out drawer type freezer on bottom. One would have its refrigerator handle on the right, the other on its left, so they'd look sort of like a 60" wide french door piece.

I also like your idea of extra deep base drawers flanking the refrigerators with hutch style uppers starting on the counter.

Dh & I are still discussing whether we want an operable window or a door where the fixed breakfast nook window is currently located. That window is 5 ft. wide, so I think a door could be done we just don't know at what cost.

Thanks again!

Regarding refrigerator - have you considered an all-refrigerator/all-freezer combination?

alpreno

GO here and scroll down to a post dated May 13 -- wow! That hutch is whohooo! Wright is a high end cabinet maker near Philly - just love his stuff. Thank gawd he is nearly 13 hours away or I would have him in here working the kitchen redo that I'm in the middle of.

https://www.facebook.com/RogerSWrightFurniture/

We had a house were the double ovens were set so the lower oven was about 6 inches above counter height. (The prior owners built it and the wife was ....uh......like us.)

See if you can find a copy of "Period Kitchens" by Judith Miller. It is a lot about historical kitchen styles BUT even if you are ultra-modern in style preference, there is a lot of good stuff in there about how storage was arranged in kitchens before the days of "cookie cutter" sizing and items. Pgs 92 -95 talk about storage and different ways to think about it (ie not the uniform box store-home magazine approach)

Wait till you see some of the awesome hutches in the photos. Typicially done by Smallbones UK where a itsy tiny kitchen starts at $100,000 for just cabinets (yeah dream on.......)

On pages 60 and 63 you see good examples of what I called "dishracks". We have one (and hubby has been ordered to make me a bigger one) and I love it. No having to lift plates and china up and into a cabinet and get some plate under something else They just slid into their slots. Some of those racks start on the counter and go up.

I would love to have the "most used" stuff in cabinets starting on the counter and not going higher than 28" up from it. Ah well.....maybe when I can convince him to rip out the entire kitchen and build wider cabinets. Keep in mind most stoves are 27-28 inches deep so you have room to deepen cabinets next to it without coming past the stove.

Even if it's not clear, it would still be helpful if you took a photo of the overall plan and posted it. You don't need to alter it, you can just post the photo you capture. It's unclear how the kitchen relates to the rest of house.

Dish storage in base cabinets will actually be better for your situation. No reaching over your head to get to dishes. Since they're in drawers, it won't be too bad for your DH either. (He'd probably still prefer upper cabinets, but unless he is the one who puts dishes away and/or sets the table, drawers will be better for you.)

Many, many GWers have not only their everyday dishes in drawers, but also glasses!

If you only entertain large groups a couple of times a year, why would you need two 30" refrigerators?

Thanks for the welcome, Buehl. We are function-over-form folks, for sure. However, I'm even more about cost:benefit analysis and can pinch a penny until Lincoln screams for mercy. I will spend for quality, up to a point, but funds aren't unlimited. OTOH, I don't want to do anything to hurt the value of the house.

I'll see what I can do about the main floor plan, but had hoped that the info provided with the notes on the kitchen plan would be enough. We're dealing with a family medical crisis and I may be away from the computer for extended periods. This is a helpful distraction.

This kitchen plan is taken from the builder's original plans. Years ago we bought a builder's spec - or maybe he was building it for himself. The house was completed when we purchased. We bought it in spite of the kitchen, and in spite of its overall style, because other features were more important to us. Only when we had to do some work elsewhere did we find the plans and realize how much he changed while building. We've had to put a huge amount into solving problems with doors, windows, HVAC, drainage, etc., so anything that didn't have to be changed we left as built.

How much are we willing to change? I guess right now we'd like to come up with a Plan A and a Plan B. One would be a total gut job and the other would entail making the fewest changes for the biggest impact. Either way, we don't want to move walls but wish to work within the space the kitchen now occupies. The exception would be the little walls at the ends of the appliance runs and the arches above them, if that would make a difference. If we kept those walls and arches, then we would want what's beneath the arches to be centered.

Those little walls at the end of the appliance runs do provide a place for light switches as well as a division between the kitchen work spaces and the various pathways or doors - the doors to the living room; the openings to the main hall, butler's pantry and back hall; and the doors to the pantry. I wonder about the possibility of keeping the walls but eliminating the arches.

I didn't explain very well what we're thinking of for the wall ovens. When I mentioned waist-high, I meant we'd like 30" ovens, French door or side door style, the bottom of which would be counter height or perhaps a bit lower, on either side of the cooktop with a landing space in between. I thought we might be able to do an oven stack cabinet for each oven with just lower drawers between them and a SS vent hood over the cooktop. I don't mind some storage above those ovens since dh can reach them and we'll just put seldom used items there. We have a wall oven mounted under the cooktop in the basement, and you're right that it's too low.

We'd like to remove the little sink at the end of the island and just have a large single bowl sink somewhere on the same side as the current main sink. If we had a second sink, it would be more useful along that outside wall to the left of the far end of the island where it could be part of a coffee station/bar set-up. My hope was that by extending the island surface where there's now an attached wood table at the end, we'd have enough prep space near the main sink.

Dh & I discussed the all-freezer/all-refrigerator combo, but both of us prefer the pull out freezer drawers.

It's true that the space between the island and the refrigerator is too large. My concern is how much it might cost to correct that since it would mean moving plumbing, venting, lighting and electrical. I guess I could use it as an excuse to do new floors. On the other hand, now when the d/w door and refrigerator doors are open there's still no problem for others to move through that space.

The house was built with stone floors in the foyer and front hall, as well as in the laundry, all bathrooms and sun room. All other floors are hardwood. Dh has asked how I'd feel about porcelain tile floors in the kitchen (which we prefer for ease of maintenance) and if that would mean replacing the stone in the front hall & foyer with tile since it could look odd to go from stone to tile where the hall leads into the kitchen. You can see how this project could snowball.

On the one hand, I'd like to see what could be done to improve the kitchen for no more than $50K. On the other hand, I could see us saying, "As long as we're doing X we might as well do Y." That could add up to $100K or $150K pretty easily. Dh won't object to the cost as long as he doesn't have to get involved and can just enjoy the results. His main concern is how long the job could take. Our last project was scheduled to take 6 - 8 weeks and the contractor was here 9 months before I booted him out.

Again, thanks all for your time.

It's true that the space between the island and the refrigerator is too large

__

well maybe not.

83 inches minus open frig door of 28-29 inches is now down to 54 inches. And if you ever needed a wheelchair and opened the frig just to get something off the door, the chair could be 12-18 inches back from the door edge. Now its down to a path of 38" between the wheelchair and other counter.

Prepared for things like that is a good idea.

Buehl - which location is better depends upon the impairment. Lifting UP can be just as unbalancing as lifting down. If the impairment is balance, then looking down and reaching own to lift up can be a problem. If balance is an issue (I speak from experience), reaching straight out for something is better than reaching up and lifting down or having to open a drawer, lean slightly over and lift up and over to the counter. You can't really say unless you know the exact nature of the impairment.

Wow, Wright's work is gorgeous. I admire his craftsmanship. Thanks for that link, Ann.

Buehl, I'll try to provide some sort of main floor layout tomorrow. The builder did his plans on multiple pages; the first floor is spread over three pages. He also changed the plans as he built and I don't have his final plans (if there were any.) I may just to do a rough sketch of what was actually built.

Sjhockeyfan325, we don't "need" two 30" refrigerators, that's very true. However, even though we plan to be here much longer than previously expected, we don't want to devalue the house and harm its resale potential. Replacing a 48" SubZero with a single 30" or 36" refrigerator wouldn't go over well in this market, especially in a house this size. There are four bedrooms on the second floor, plus another in the basement. I think that most potential buyers would be regularly feeding a family of six or more. The builder was an empty nester who (one story goes) planned to live here with only his wife but wanted space for all of their children and grandchildren to visit. That's now our situation. Meanwhile, we'll use the extra space for more wine. ; )

I'm so sorry you're dealing with a crisis. Hopefully we can help distract you a bit in a positive way.

I took a run at your kitchen. I made several assumptions, so there are things that might not work for you. I started by thinking it might work better to rotate the island so it makes the most of the space; the sink plumbing might be able to stay in the same place. Secondly, I moved the range and added a prep sink next to it in an effort to limit traffic behind and through the prep space. In the drawing I eliminated one of the arch walkways that seemed it might be redundant and to extend the cabinetry. I thought you could move the entry to the pantry to within the utility room for storage of longer term items so you can extend the counters/cabinets farther toward the breakfast nook.

definitely be doing things to aid lack of mobility. I know about that stuff - I live it. drawers will be a great help w/that and storage. you might also think about a reg dw set higher up. widen any doorways you can.

moving the 2nd fridge (or the frzr) into the B pantry...

how about a peninsula at top end of fridge run and a shorter island turned the other way. I can't draw it out but maybe someone can. space between peninsula and island will matter.

have some counters at lower height for you to use. being short, I know that's a problem. I can barely reach the front edge of 2nd upper cab shelf. I can reach my hood knob but that depends on shape, style and height of the hood too. I'd be happier with my stove top an inch or so lower, not the oven...

Thank you, Benjesbride. I'd never considered turning the island and will have to show your plan to dh. The one problem I see is closing off that arch eliminates access from the front hall and would mean we'd have to cut across the living room or go around through the dining room. If we need to eliminate one access point, the double doors to the living room wouldn't have much negative impact.

Desertsteph, I really like the idea of the cooktop being set at a lower height. Dropping that part of the counter down 4" would make a big difference for me and wouldn't bother dh.

Buehl, I think you mentioned that even a sketch would help - I hope so. Here's a link to a very rough sketch of the adjoining spaces. The builder split up his main floor plans over three pages and I can't locate one of them. The master suite has changed dramatically since he did his first design, so I just showed the hall that leads to it.

Thanks again! (Edited to remove comment about crown that made no sense.)

[main floor layout sketch[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-update-phvw-vp~45252411)

It's always better to post it in-line here! :-)

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kitchen update · More Info

Oh! Well, seeing the whole house makes a difference. Moving the range to the living room wall is a bad idea then. I didn't realize you had traffic going from the family room to the powder room.

Thank you, Buehl, for posting the sketch here.

I asked dh what he thinks about the idea of closing off the double doors to the formal living room and his eyes lit up. We rarely use those doors but instead go through the arch to the main hall when moving between the kitchen and living room. That space is currently 62" wall-to-wall, so we'd gain much needed storage. Making that change would also allow for a more symmetrical furniture arrangement in the living room, which makes dh very happy.

So we can close up the doors on the family room side of the kitchen? Leave the two arches that are close together dining/living arches?

Is there a walkway directly from the dining room to the hall/living room?

Benjesbride, yes we could close up those double doors from the kitchen to the living room that are near the keeping room. All of the arched openings need to remain.

There is not an opening near the stairs to the basement from the hall to the dining room. To get to the dining room one either enters from the foyer or (more often) from the kitchen through the butler's pantry (two arched openings.)

I realize that this is not the open concept house that's popular today, but I actually like the separation. When we entertain formally, I don't like for the kitchen mess to be on view. For much of the time we've lived here the casual dining furniture has been in the sun room instead of the breakfast nook and we ate either there or on one of the patios.

Chisue, I agree with your suggestion about selling. However, dh has decided to not take early retirement as he previously planned. He still enjoys his work.

We tried to sell the house at a discount a few years ago. I talked with our long time RE broker just last month and he confirmed that in our market such large houses are rarely selling and when they do they still sell at a deep discount.

As for aging in place, we could live on just the main floor. However, we've coped with wheelchairs, a knee-walker, IV poles, etc. for multiple family members thanks to the elevator. With multiple HVAC systems our utility costs are quite reasonable for a large house. I now hire help with the cleaning, but only have the main floor done except when we expect overnight guests. We do love the views here and enjoy our outdoor space.

Right now we're just trying to justify (to ourselves) the cost of a refresh or remodel, assuming it doesn't add a dime to the resale value. We also dread the upheaval and mess. We know who not to hire for the project, but we haven't yet found a GC we have confidence in to do the job right.

Here's hoping your RE market improves! I see the DOW going up today, now that the Fed has *made a decision* about interest rates.

Our RE market is bad for more expensive properties. Neighbors recently sold for about half of what they paid in 2005. The house had been listed for over two years; they ended up following a down market. We hope to stay in our (smaller) home until we need assisted living. Maybe the market will be 'up' at that point. We were able to sell our former home in a rising market and build before the boom became ridiculous.

So...back to that Kitchen! FWIW, I've been happy with my 42" GE Monogram sXs with water in the door. This and the small GE sXs at our Maui condo had no problems for 14 years.

I was wondering too about you staying in your large house until you uttered the magic word; elevator. LOL. With an elevator you can enjoy your house well into your later years. My Dad now lives with my sister in her house on the second floor. He has lots of trouble walking but she too has an elevator. We are building a house with two floors and I'm of the same age group as you and we're putting in an elevator, although our master will be on the first floor

alpreno

Meant to type this yesterday but was up doing the 5th glaze on the cabinet refinish...

You mentioned you were thinking of 19" wide counters between the stove top and ovens. That is pretty narrow for a necessary work space - boat/RV size counter which can be a pain in the toosh.

I would suggest you mark that size off on you current counters next to the stove (masking tape will do) and try restricting your use to that spot for a bit to see how it works for you.

Ann, taping out the space is a great idea. Thanks. I've marked furniture placement with painter's tape but hadn't thought of trying out various kitchen work areas that way.

Cpartist, I think you'll really love the elevator in your new home. Although our main concern when we bought this house was health related, the elevator has been a huge help in moving furniture and other things from one floor to another. I've also appreciated it during tornado season the several times I've had a foot or ankle injury and needed to get to the basement quickly.

Chisue, thank you. Our best guess is we'd have to take a big hit just like your neighbors. Smaller houses, and new houses, have recovered here and sell above 2006-07 prices. It would be fine if the next house was 1/3 the size, but the lots we've looked at are 1/10 or less of what we now have and dh won't settle for that.

If Santa dropped a big sack of money down our chimney, I'd tear down the house and rebuild a much smaller one. Of course, I'd want input on the kitchen design from the helpful folks here. It would be lovely to start from scratch and not have a kitchen with multiple traffic paths running through work spaces.