Nope.

I think it's because there is little regulation and tons of products out there that will do the job if used correctly. Couple that with the public's thirst for "cheaper" and we get the equivalent of the wild wild west.

Be glad you identified the hack in your first meeting xmkx. I'd ask # 1 if he'll use a bonding flange drain and the laticrete membrane for the shower pan too , and be off to the races.

xmkx, Did the CTEF or NTCA information I provided you generate any potential leads? There is a bright side. You know what questions to ask to avoid a very costly mistake. I share your frustration as I must constantly reassure potential clients that all the horror stories they hear are completely avoidable and due to a lack of knowledge or just laziness. Most commonly both. Hang in there.

Xedos, I get a little nervous that he didn't think to use the laticrete membrane on the floor by himself. I was thinking about asking him to use it but if I can have my cake and eat it too, I would love to have someone who has experience putting the membrane on the floor do my bathroom. But he's definitely in the running.

Creative Tile Eastern CT (Mike), I am going to call a couple of people tomorrow from the CTEF and NTCA lists. I looked at a couple of websites (of the people on the list) and it looks like they just do tile installation but it doesn't hurt to call, so I will.

I had another contractor come in tonight. He did my friend's bathroom and it looks beautiful but she had a bathtub. The contractor says he uses 9235 on the walls (yay)! But, for the floor, he puts a lead pan down first, then pitches the floor, and then puts a water proofing liner on top (or maybe he said membrane). I said that was wrong. He said that lead pans don't leak and the double protection is great. Then he said, he would do it any way I wanted him to do it. I asked if he had applied just the 9234 on the floor on a previous job and he said, "Sure", but my gut says he was just "yes-ing" me. My issue is that I want someone who's done the laticrete 9235 (or any topical fabric membrane) on the floor before to do my floor. Ideally, I would like to avoid being the test dummy. On a positive note, he is willing to do anything the way I want and seemed to have an anything is possible and it's not any trouble attitude.

I think I figured out why the contractors don't use 9235 on the floor. On the laticrete website, it says it needs a 7 day cure time before you can flood test. Could that be it? Hmmm.

should not be a problem, as he can do other work while he is waiting for it to cure, and come back later for the test.

"On a positive note, he is willing to do anything the way I want and seemed to have an anything is possible and it's not any trouble attitude."

One of the luxuries of self employment is getting to choose your customers. I never pick those that tell me "how" only those that tell me "what". Doing things the way the customer wants can lead to big trouble. Good luck.

#9235 is a liquid membrane, Hydroban is a liquid membrane that is ready for flood test in 2 hours and does not require fabric embedded as #9235 does. Above you mentioned " #9235( or any topical fabric membrane) " Are you thinking of Hydroban sheet membrane on walls and floor? That would also vapor proof the shower. Just make sure you have all the facts straight because when your agreement is you are providing the specs you take the responsibility if it fails. A professional tile setter will install the selected system without having someone hold their hand. You told this guy he was doing it wrong with a lead pan and then a waterproof liner. Two systems won't hurt but are a complete waste of time and money. "He is willing to do anything the way I want" would be a negative to me not a positive note.

I think the reason guys are reluctant to use this stuff on the floors/pan is the drains required when using the topical membrane.

They aren't available everywhere, and when they are - cost $100 or more. A lot of guys just have a hard time paying a hundred bucks for a flange drain when they've been paying less than $10 for a clamping drain since the Carter administration. What they fail to realize is they aren't paying - the customer is ! And try to explain that they make more $$$ just for buying the $100 than they do the $10 and a blank stare ensues.

To me, it boils down to : old tile guys don't like change. Whatever they were taught is what they stick with - even if it was wrong.

xedos I believe you have a valid point. If I had a dollar for every time I heard " I've been doing it this way for 20yrs." (or 30yrs never a number in between:) ) Thus I always have the TCNA handbook and manufacturers specs with me to point out the facts. Nothing like asking the contractor. Are you sure you want to make your case to the homeowner based on the point you were doing it wrong for 20yrs. or shall we just do it correctly? Humor comes in different forms as we age. A few of us old timers embrace improved techniques and products but it is hard to keep up with. Fortunately I have forgotten enough to create space in my head for new things:)

post youre zipcode A pic of your current debacle, and The closest "Big city" to you. I will source a few numbers for you .......

'To me, it boils down to : old tile guys don't like change. Whatever
they were taught is what they stick with - even if it was wrong."

-Telluwhat, thats a piss poor blanket statement

Very few people stay on top of the new stuff coming out. I think if you work in that field, you usually need to know what the newest stuff out there is in order to stay relevant. Look at Blockbuster. They are gone. When they first came out, they were making so much money. Along comes netflix and streaming, so instead of adapting, blockbuster continued to be old school. Now they are gone. Ok, I'm tangenting. Forgive me.

I won't give you a blow by blow with each contractor I talk to but I'm excited that a guy I got off CTEF's website (per Creative Tile Eastern CT's suggestion) is coming tomorrow to give me an estimate.

Telluwhat - I'm about 30 minutes north of manhattan (westchester county). My bathroom is small 52" x 95". Here's my shower that needs waterproofing. Just curious, but are you a pro? or a diyer?

done tile came up on a very quick search

based on your acct profile you are following only a few "select" tile guys strange as I dont see them ever helping you present or past?

well one of them is helping you....

are you sure you are not getting overly involved in the build/material tech decision making process based on mis information and drama you have been reading here on GW and other sites?

This fella from florida poses a great point and i think it speaks volumes..

"On a positive note, he is willing to do anything the way I want and
seemed to have an anything is possible and it's not any trouble
attitude."

and he goes on to answer:
"I never pick those that tell me "how" only those that tell me "what".

You are on the web gathering a bunch of random and likely mis-information, then that is building drama in your own mind as it would anyone, then you try to cram a carreers worth of tile expertise into your screening process and its yielding very confusing mixed results likely on both ends.

Its valiant you are so concerned and worried it is your home and youre gonna be spending 15K+ on it...

Rest assured theres many pros building some of the nicest and most cutting Edge showers in NYC.........

telluwhat - I didn't even realize that I was following certain people from a certain geographic area. I follow those guys because they've responded to people like me, their name pops up frequently and they seem like nice people.

As a homeowner, who has gone through a few rounds of renos, I find that the more I stay involved, the happier I am with the end product. There are less ---" I wish I had done xyx." Kind of like car shopping. If you only look on the outside and don't look under the hood, you really don't know what you have until you've bought the car.

I've gone through two shower pan installs and both have gone bad. I found these sites because I was living through the same drama. I've spent thousands (and thousands) of dollars on bathroom renovations by contractors that have come with recommendations. So if I seem like I'm getting over involved, it's because I feel like I've been burned by letting others blindly guide me and I'm trying my best to avoid that situation again. I'm curious, how do you suggest I find someone? Please advise!

Teller - late to the party again , and you're just adding to the drama yourself.

What mis-info is here ??? You love to wax on about all this mis- info , but never seem to be able to point out the goods.

Are you Done Tile , or have you personally worked with them ? A slick facey spacey page isn't necessarily a big plus to some .

A bit more info might help xmkx make an informed decision about someone who on the surface appears to just be a random advertisement .

Since its xmkx' s home, shower and money she SHOULD be involved as much as she wants to be , even to the point of telling you the the setter how to build her shower. The setter of course has no obligation to work for xm, but that's simply a market place transaction like any other professional services relationship.

My experience has been that the contractors who think homeowners are too involved are scared and or lazy . They're afraid the client will have the latest info that they don't know about or have had a chance to try out . Nothing wrong with that as the latest and greatest often isn't . Any one still want LP siding or PB piping ??? But instead of fessing up to not knowing and doing some research they try and BS their way out of the situation when perhaps the best course would be to pass on the job .

Mongo- thank you.

Been through it and still trying to fix the mistakes. And yes I did my homework. And no, I wasn't going for the cheapest.

Lisa

I was always under the impression an educated customer is a good customer, but the customer also needs to know the difference between being a good customer and being a PITA......................

Many homeowners have given me the opportunity to try new products. They have done their research and then it becomes time for me to do mine. Manufacturer first and then if possible other tradesman with hands-on experience which is not always available. I enjoy doing something new but as we all know new does not mean better. If the system appeals to me I'll happily work with the homeowner. Where the line gets drawn is if a pro is asked to do something that they know is incorrect. Can't do it. "The homeowner said that's how they want it done" won't hold up in court. You are the pro and you know better. It's a minefield for the homeowner trying to find a good contractor. The state of CT in 2014 stated 56% of contractors are not registered. You can imagine what the real number is. I know in the tile trade it's much higher. With all the good points made on this thread contractor selection boils down to an educated choice and a gut feeling for having someone in your home and there will never be a guarantee of the outcome.That's life.

mongo: I have to agree, but would temper my previous remarks with striking a balance between your points and mine. A customer may have seen a late night informercial for Acme Spray On Waterproofing and think it's just the thing. On the other hand, he may be educating himself and we may learn together.

Honestly, I don't care whether the contractor uses Kerdi, Laticrete (Hydroban liquid, 9235 liquid+fabric, Hydroban membrane), or Nobleseal. I want someone who will pitch my shower floor, water poof my shower floor, waterproof my shower walls and has experience with the application of their chosen product. I can research everything to death. It does not replace hands on experience. That is why I am asking questions. To confirm that you have the experience. Feel free to give me an education while you are here.

I do have preferences. I would prefer not to use a vinyl pan again. I would prefer not to use Redguard (large room for error). I would prefer not to use hydroban liquid on the floor (but ok on the walls). But it is possible that I will hire someone who uses those products. It's called a preference.

For those pros complaining about homeowners doing their homework, you don't have to take the job. But it goes both ways, I do not have to hire someone who will not have a conversation with me. It's your job but it's my house. We need to work together.

And why do you some of you assume that if a person asks questions, they are shopping around for the cheapest deal around. When contractors come to my house, I do not tell them I have only $X to spend. Some will look for short cuts to ensure they get the job and make a profit. You get what you pay for. If I can't afford to have it done right, I don't want it done at all (good thing I have an extra bathroom in my house). At the same time, what's wrong with trying to save a couple of bucks. A lot people I know will drive to a certain gas station that has cheaper gas but there is something wrong with a person trying to save a few hundred or thousands of dollars?

For those of you who have responded with advice and tried to help, thank you. Thank you for making this situation less stressful. Thank you for arming me with knowledge so it decreases my chance of having to deal with another leaking shower pan. Thank you taking time out of your busy schedules.

xedos - BTW - I'm a she. Thanks for the backup!

MongoCT - I just saw the timestamp on my email letting me know you posted a response on GW. It said 4:00am. I know that you are in the same time zone as me. Ouch. I think I just got tired by looking at the timestamp.

Yep, I got home late last night after flying in from the west coast...then stayed up even later!

As a follow up, I agree with you guys in spirit. Some products are "interesting" at best. And I agree with you, I won't use them either. I was once offered several cans of "Spray and Seal" or "Spray Flex", whatever the name of that product that's advertised on TV, to be used as a shower floor membrane. Ah, no thank you.

There can be a fine line between a homeowner asking "why" if they're trying to educate themselves or they're simply trying to understand the process, and a person who's asking "why" because they don't seem to trust my methods. With every answer you give them they type it into their smartphone, or call their Uncle Bob, or they cross-check your answers against the HGTV database. You can always find someone who had a bad experience with Kerdi. Or Hydroban. Or Redgard. Or thinset. Or epoxy grout. Or cement-based grout. Or marble. Or cement board. Or porcelain tile. Or...

Example, years ago in a house I was building, the homeowner requested Kerdi showers. "Sure, I can do that" I replied. They had seen Kerdi on the Holmes show and it piqued their interest. That's good. They even had the steps written down that Holmes used. Including using mastic (instead of thinset) to adhere the Kerdi to the walls, because that's the way that Holmes did it. Well, that's bad! We got into a bit of a back and forth, the homeowner eventually contacted the Holmes website. Within a couple of days they had taken the video and tutorial down off the Holmes site. The homeowner did a little more research and then asked if I could build it the way he saw it on another website, which happened to be a Kerdi Shower thread I posted online years ago. "See how this guy does the corners? The niche? The floor? Can you do it like that?"

"Yeah, I can do it that way" I replied. lol

I really enjoy working with people who have thought through what they want in a bathroom or shower. Who show up with inspiration photos or sketches. Who have thought about tile sizes, shapes, and patterns. It makes it easier for me. If they've already thought about what they want, I don't have to tease it out of them. I don't mind if they ask questions, because I ask them a lot of questions in return.

Anyhow, I don't mean to ramble. Without a doubt I see things from both perspectives. I understand not all builders are the same. Nor are all homeowners.

Best to all.

At least you weren't on the red eye !

"I understand not all builders are the same. Nor are all homeowners." - Good point Mongo.

Can anyone else give me their opinion on why a contractor would choose to put in a vinyl pan on the floor with laticrete/ditra (etc...) on the walls? I know a vinyl pan can work if done correctly (I know this because there are tons of pans out there that are not leaking). Just curious about the thought process. Another contractor came in and offered the same - vinyl on the floor and laticrete on the walls. Xedos said that he/she thought it could be the cost of the drain.

Think I covered this already but the two biggest factors are history and perceived cost.

Guys have been doing vinyl pans and clamping drains since ????? There is a comfort level there. But, most guys use this system incorrectly all the time. They will not have preslope under the liner and they won't ensure that the drain's weep holes don't clog with mud. This poor practice keeps the system from functioning properly and ensures that the pan stays damp or wet all the time.

Second is that a special drain is required for use with topical membranes and they cost ten to fifty times what the drain above costs. They are also not as widely available at 7am every morning , so sometimes require thought and organization to have on hand.

Basic difference - Liner, copper,lead is a water-in water-out system. The mud bed is saturated from the time you start to use the shower until the day someone busts it out. Recent test have shown the weep holes clog from minerals fairly quickly. There are drainage membranes. Again more knowledge and cost. Now we have many systems that place the waterproofing on the top which eliminates the need to address moisture within the mud bed. To me it's a no brainer as the entire goal of waterproofing a shower is moisture management. The liners will continue to be specified on jobs as that has been the standard for years. You mentioned Laticrete #9235. Hydroban replaces it without the need for fabric reinforcement and flood test in 2 hours. Laticrete will not stop making #9235 as it is specified throughout the world. My point is change takes time and many installers are in the transition phase. IMO that is what you are seeing. I was typing and didn't see xedos post.

telluwhat - did you delete your comment on how to go about attempting to find a contractor? I thought it was helpful and a good summary for a homeowner. I came back to reread it and it's gone.

Teller likes to swoop in and stir things up and then leaves when questions arise .

xmkx,

Jeez, Glad it helped you....

did it ?

I am looking to convert a bathtub into a shower and thinking about using Kerdi kit. My contractor never used it before, but I don't want to use hot mop to waterproof like he suggested. Do you have any advice for me beside changing the contractor? ;-)

raiceam, personally (not professionally), I think it all depends on how much you trust your contractor. There are DIYers that do their own kerdi showers so I know your contractor could do a great job. But how do you know he will? I guess it is all based on your prior experience with him. How detail oriented is he? Will he do his research? Does he read instructions? or will he just do what's easiest? Good luck.

xm - what did you end up doing for your shower ?

Xedos. Still working on it. I thought I had figured out everything and I was about work out the final details with a contractor that I met. I noticed that he put nothing about a preslope in the estimate description. I swore I thought he said he puts in a preslope when I asked him. So I asked him to confirm and he said, "You don't need a preslope" and this is with a vinyl pan on the floor (and Hydroban on the walls). So... I need to figure out my next step.

Why don't you have a set of drawings and detailed specifications made up to hand out for people to give you a price on ???

That way you control what you are asking for and everyone is pricing the same thing. It will also weed out those not competent or interested in building you what you want.

Xedos. Great idea. I'm definitely part of the reason for not having found someone yet. I was deciding between things that had to be done and on things that I would love to get done (if costs allow it). I now have an accurate description of what I want done. I will leave the choice of waterproofing to the contractor (depending on what he/she is used to working with).

xm - you're on the correct path up until the last sentence.

That is the most important detail to have in the drawings and specifications. Decide what you what for that , get the TCNA Specs for that method and make it part of the contract.

Otherwise, you are back where you started with Friday's contractor that may otherwise be a good mechanic, but hasn't a clue about water management because he's not using a preslope.

Youll also have to have a talk about the details in the documents so you don't end up with a yes man that's starts your project and forgets - or never had any intention of using details like preslopes, flanged drains, hydroban or kerdi because " we've never used those and it's fine " . Or, " what's a flanged drain or they're too expensive , or redguard is just like hydroban or kerdi " or ............

This is the kinda stuff a GC does behind the scenes.

Xedos, Not sure I'm understanding (but thank you so much for advising me on this).

For the contract, I will have as much spelled out as I can.

As for speaking to the contractors initially to get estimates, I have not been asking for specific waterproofing methods. Based on the conversations I've had with contractors around here it looks like Laticrete is the only vendor around here with a real presence. It's the only product that multiple contractors mentioned using. I haven't spoken to anyone who has said .. I've used laticrete, redguard and ditra ... which one would you prefer. After weeding through the contractors that don't waterproof the walls, and the ones that don't preslope the floor when using a vinyl pan, I feel like if I filter contractors by a specific kind of waterproofing before they even give me an estimate, I will never find someone.

Ok, I'm off to email my newly drafted scope of work to a contractor that I got off the CTEF website.

Please continue to advise!

If you choose to select the waterproofing system. Contact the manufacturer directly and get the sales rep's phone # for your area. The rep will provide you with the location nearest you that regularly purchases their product. It saves you a lot of time searching. Nice to see you using the CTEF site.

If you're having that much of a problem finding competent people, here's what I did:

I purchased a prefabricated shower pan from Tile-Redi. I'm sure there are many others. It comes complete with an integrated drain, and a lip for the cement board, and they had lots of sizes. I also purchased the shower niches from them.

All you have to do is put down a bag of mortar to bed the pan.

After that, I put up cement board, taped the seams, and applied Hydroban. As a novice in shower construction this took me four days.

Then just go with Laticrete and their drain and make that part of the scope of work. Laticrete's site will have the necessary drawings for you to make part of the packet.

Hydroban is really good stuff, easy to apply and has a short cycle time. Do as CTE suggest and talk to the Laticrete rep and he'll guide you to someone good that uses his stuff.

You gotta start with a plan, a good ,and detailed one. Without that , the chances of success are greatly diminished. You you wouldn't start to build a house with a sketch on a cocktail napkin and some internet bookmarks , would you ?