What are the exact measurements of these walls, please?

Purple =

Blue =

Red =

Green =

Could you please also post some more general pictures of the interior?

Particularly of the current view of the dining room/kitchen from the foyer. I remember you were concerned that the wall between the dining room and kitchen not be too open, but I've never really seen it all in context with the main foyer/central hallway to properly see the current openness.

Also a shot of the family room (what an island would be looking at) and the dining room.

Hi Erica,

I think it is very smart of you to see what these GW geniuses will come up with. Your design was beautiful, especially the two sided glass pass through cabs, but I agree the layout was definitely not as functional as it could be. 2k is a lot of $, but I would not think twice if I had to lose that in order to get a functional (and beautiful) design with no regrets later.

Here is your previous thread for those interested.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3445044/finalizing-cabinet-order-this-week-any-last-minute-thoughts-for-me?n=35

Are you open to keeping the existing kitchen window and adding a second window to flank the cooktop if kept it on that wall? I love that look.

I can provide pictures and detailed measurements later when I get home.

As to the window question - no, I don't want to add one. It would have a horrible view of pool equipment and side of a house!

Double sided glass cabinet passthrough - this I want to keep especially since I just sold our Ethan Allen China cabinet!

Oh yeah and I had just read like two seconds before in your OP where you said that you didn't want to add a window due to the bad view! Yet by the time I go to post, Vooooom, it's gone out the brain. LOL!

I cannot wait to see what Jillius suggests, she one of the best!

Here you go! Please excuse the blurry pictures (something is wrong with my iPhone - it won't focus correctly! And excuse any messes - 3 kids does not equal clean and picked up! Also, I want to reiterate that I'm totally fine with no window on the main kitchen wall because of the view and because we have so many other windows. Plus I feel like it opens up our design options.

What are the exact measurements of these walls, please?

Purple = 271 inches

Blue = 41 inches to edge of window and then 53 inches to inside corner of window = 94 inches total. (just wanted to break it out in case that helps)

Red = 50 inches from inside corner of window to corner of wall

Green = 156 inches

View from foyer: We are thinking of building a half wall between the pillars to break of the space. Also the china cabinet and table are going. I plan to buy a 60" round dining table to replace it and the double sided glass cabinets and passthrough will take the place of the china cabinet.

Living room view from foyer: We will eventually get furniture in here! Right now it's a "wall ball" room.

Another view from the foyer looking towards back of house and kitchen/family room. There is a wine bar where the pile of backpacks is on the floor! Also, our couch is out too far - I think the cleaning lady moved it about 6" back. Also we are redeeming Amex points to get a new sofa and I think the sofa table is going to go.

Thank you!!!

I remember your kitchen from back in June. Here's a link to the original post for anyone who needs more info. Some of us already worked on this and some dimensions are included: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3147236/layout-of-our-asymmetrical-kitchen

ETA: Sorry! I see Rebunky remember you too.

I would encourage you to break out from wanting everything centered on everything else. You will almost never be standing in the exact right spot to see that everything does line up, and the moment you step to the to the right or the left, symmetry gets thrown off by your vantage point anyway.

I think you see a lot of pictures like this:

Where every tiny thing is lined up. But the moment the picture is taken, the chairs get used and left askew:

Or you step a few feet to the side, and now nothing is centered on anything:

What you DO notice is every day is that everyone and everything is in your way or not where you need it to be while you are using your kitchen because your kitchen was laid out solely to be symmetrical, rather than into organized zones of activity and thoughtfully designated traffic patterns.

So while it's nice to line things up when you can to help things look pretty and organized, it definitely should not at the expense of function. You first figure out where things should go for functional reasons and THEN once those decisions are made, see what you can do about making it visually pleasing as well.

Here is a kitchen I love that is beautiful, but not symmetrical at all:

Here are a few others:

Sorry, reached the comment photo limit. Continuing from the last comment!

Sorrento House Kitchen · More Info

And here are some kitchens that have achieved a sort of symmetry through balancing various elements creatively:

So, yes, getting something that is both functional and visually pleasing is entirely possible. And yes, I think it's worth it to start over. Place all the function stuff first using the forum here and get that settled. THEN ask for help making it look visually balanced and lovely.

For anybody wanting to make a layout suggestion, here is a blank layout template to play with. The kitchen is 22'7" x 13' minus the corner the window cuts off. One square in the kitchen = 1 square ft.

Erica, I think the glass cabinets pass through you were excited about is a good jumping off point. Am I correct that something like this between the kitchen and dining is what you have in mind?

The reason I think this is a good place to start is:

1. It's the only design element you have expressed real excitement about, and it's special (not every home has this in the kitchen). So this will be both beautiful and personal as a thing you like especially and that not everybody has. Stuff like this is what makes it your kitchen.

2. It's also extremely functional. If the dining room is to be your main eating area, you want your kitchen dish storage to be near the dining room because that's where you use the dishes. You can even make the pass through uppers double-sided, so they can be opened from both the dining room side and the kitchen side.

So assuming you will definitely have a glass cabinet pass through to the dining room, I have these immediate thoughts:

• I agree with you (now that I can see the whole foyer/dining/living set-up that) keeping the existing doorway between the kitchen and dining AND having a pass through would be too open and start to make it feel as if the first floor living areas are all in one room. I'd go with either a doorway OR the pass through between the kitchen and the dining, and since I'm operating under the assumption that the pass through is a given, I'm going to plan the kitchen assuming the doorway will definitely be closed.
• Since we know where the dish storage is going (in the pass through), you want your clean-up sink and dishwasher nearby (so it's easy to put dishes away in the pass through).

Wilson853 posted this image on your last thread:

English Country Waterfront · More Info

And I posted this one recently on mrspete's thread:

These are making me think that the clean-up sink and dishwasher should be in the pass through with the dish storage. Dirty dishes from the table could just be placed on the pass through counter, where they would be in the exact right spot to be washed and put away.

That frees up the kitchen island to be solely a work zone with a prep sink. Prep work is typically the most time-consuming part of cooking, so you'd be able to chat with people sitting at the island or in the family room or watch TV or look out into the backyard as you prep at the island.

Before I go about sorting the rest of the kitchen:

1) Do you like this line of thinking so far?

2) Where do you enter the house with groceries?

3) Would your life be improved by a door from the kitchen directly to the outside? Seems as if that side alleyway with all the neighbor's pool equipment would be great for a grill or for your garbage bins in terms of easy access from the kitchen and keeping dirty/smoky things where you won't see or notice them. I notice the garage is quite far from the kitchen and the door to the lanai is on the far side of the family room from the kitchen. Is that ever annoying?

Jillius - yes, you are correct that the passthrough is something I want to keep! The plan has the cabinets being functional glass on both sides.

I envision it like this one you posted:

1. I do like your thinking so far, but what do you think about walking in our front door and seeing the back of a faucet and sink? To me that wouldn't be very pretty?

2. I come in with groceries from the garage and walk to the kitchen.

3. We use the triple sliders to the lanai where we have the pool and outdoor kitchen. It opens on the kitchen slide and pockets in by our bedroom.

On the other side of that big window in the kitchen where the table currently is is a bathroom. And the side of the house where the wall window is now would lead to nothing. We keep our big garbage cans in the garage. If we kept them on the side of the house it would be a long walk to the street.

I added a faucet to this picture:

Here's the real thing, more or less:

I would never give it a second thought, but I'm not the important one here. Does it bother you? The bigger thing is probably if dishes tend to pile up, those would be visible. A lot of people don't like the visible dishes thing. For me, that wouldn't be an issue because I clean up everything regardless before any formal company, and I don't worry about stuff like that with unexpected or informal company. But again, would that bother you?

The other option is to have the pass through two heights -- counter height on the kitchen side and bar height on the back. So the sink/faucet/dishes would be largely obscured.

On the kitchen side it'd look something like that:

On the dining room side, it'd look something like this:

Here is your inspiration photo doctored to have a higher back on the dining room side:

Oh, Wilson and I cross-posted. Her/his examples are way better than mine!

Erica, do you like any of these suggestions?

I definitely like the idea of the raised counter on the dining room side although it's not as easy to "slide" the dishes to the sink. But it hides the sink. Right now plan was for bottom cabinets to be 12" out on dining room side so I think the raised counter side would/could be a little deeper.

These ideas are great! Ideally I still want to get rid of that one window which I think will help place everything else. If you think it needs to stay, I of course would be open to the idea.

I can't thank you enough for this help. My KD and my wallet may not thank you though!

The one downside I can see to having a raised back vs. counter all the same height is how easy it is to reach the upper cabinets on both sides. They're already going to be positioned slightly higher than normal upper cabinets, right? So you don't want them too far in front of you on top of that.

If the sink has no raised wall behind it, the counter should be 36" deep total to contain splashing. You'll notice in the images above, the uppers are centered on the pass through counter when that counter is all one height.

So the sink would be like this (notice the 3 foot deep counter):

You can see that they are centered on the counter, so no matter which side of the pass through you're on, the uppers are the same distance from you. They also happen to be the same distance from you as standard uppers are when hanging on a wall above standard-depth counters. I.e., it should be no problem to reach the contents of the glass uppers from both sides.

However, if you do a raised wall behind the sink, the counter would look like this:

And you'll notice that the example show the uppers hanging so they are exactly or mostly lined up with the raised wall below. However, that means the uppers are here (uppers are in pink):

You now can't reach stuff inside those upper cabinets from the kitchen. I also think it seems easier to move items back and forth across the pass bar when the counter is all the same height. But that isn't a big issue the way not being able to use the uppers from the kitchen would be.

I'm sorry but I'm not quite following you... I think the passthrough cabinets are 27" off the counter on both sides. Tall enough so I could push things through and not hit my head.

I'm tired now, but would like to have a shot at this idea tomorrow. Thanks for doing the scale drawing Jillius.

Especially now that you're open to moving things around. I love the idea of the two sided upper cabinets and the raised cabinet on the dining side.

Erica how do you feel about a farm sink as that would help hide dishes even without a raised ledge?

Go for it cpartist! I'm off to bed now too but trust me, I'll probably dream about this. This kitchen design has consumed me for months now. My husband said the other day he can't wait to have his wife back!

My plan was the 36" Kohler Whitehaven farmhouse sink with the Moen Woodmere faucet. I was more concerned with seeing the huge faucet and sink when you walked in our front door.

Remind me. Do you want or need the breakfast area? Or just island seating and the dining room?

I don't want/need nook anymore. My preference was to have a large island and then use dining room table. Plus with that off angle window it's hard to have a bigger rectangular island and table.

KD thought putting the fridge and pantry there added weight to that side of the kitchen so it didn't seem odd.

We have a double cabinet fronted single-level pass through between our kitchen and DR; it has the clean-up sink in it (similar to the Traditional Home photo that Jillius posted above). We have reeded glass pocket doors that can be used to close off the kitchen side. Rarely close the doors, though -- usually just have a fern sitting on the counter, hiding the faucet.

It was a bit of a PITA to design, but well worth it. Good luck!

Oaktown, do you have pictures? That'd be quite helpful!

Wow. That sounds really cool and pretty! I think that I want to leave my passthrough as I have it now except consider having the countered higher on dining side as long as my uppers are at a correct height. Because of the drop down tray ceiling on dining side the ceiling where cabinets are is lower than kitchen side. So I think keeping it as I have it now cabinet wise, I'm good with.

Here is a suggestion:

• The glass uppers are above the pass through containing the clean-up sink and dishwasher as discussed earlier in the thread.

• The range is on an angle. See below for pictures of this. The range on the angle maximizes counter space in the prep/cooking zones of the kitchen, fills in wall space until the windows start, (making the window placement look more intentional), and also echoes the existing angles in the windows (making them look still more intentional).

• The pink section with the double oven, fridge, and pantry is all one floor-to-ceiling row of cabinets (a "wall of tall"). The clean-up counter dies into the wall of tall with an appliance garage (containing the microwave or coffee maker or whatever floats your boat).

Here are some counters dying into walls of tall:

Plymouth Kitchen Remodel · More Info

The range is on an angle like this:

Right now I have a MW drawer and induction cooktop - no range. Also I would like to keep a rectangular island like my current design - possible?

Also the bay window is not at counter height and moving it up is not possible. (Well maybe it is but I can't imagine the cost to do it!).

Also does your drawing keep the small window or eliminate it?

And before I go running... Would you kill me if I said I'm not s fan of the "wall of tall"?

To explain why this is functional:

1) PREP/COOK (RED) ZONE

This is where you work when you are making a real meal (as opposed to reheating a quick bite). You'll notice the other zones do not overlap the prep/cook zone. There should be no reason why someone would have to enter the cook's space and get in his/her way. Similarly, the cook has everything needed in the prep/cook zone to cook an entire meal from start to finish and would have no reason to leave the cook zone and get in a cleaner's way or snacker's way. No waiting while someone uses what you need. No having to move while someone grabs something you're in the way of. No running into each other. No wanting to strangle your various family members.

Meals are typically cooked in this order:

get the food (from the fridge or pantry) --> wash/chop/mix/peel the food (using a sink, some counter space, and often the compost/trash can) --> cook the food (on the cooktop or in the oven)

The most efficient prep/cook zone has the things you need set up in the order you'll need them. Ideally that means, the prep/cook zone should flow well like this: Fridge/pantry --> sink and large prep counter and trash--> cooktop/oven

When those items are out of order, you end up going back and forth a lot.

With this suggested floor plan, the fridge and pantry are grouped together as you'd want (so you can grab all the food at once), and they are right across the aisle from a nice big prep counter where you can drop all your food. That prep counter has all the space you need to wash/chop/mix/peel the food (six continuous feet! If you have a little helper, that's enough room that you two can stand side by side!), plus it has the sink you need for that entire process, and trash/compost should be in a pull-out somewhere under this counter so you can dump produce stickers and carrot tops and empty containers and whatever else. Prepping is usually the most time-consuming task, so the prep counter here is the one that faces people seated at the island and the family room (for socializing and to have something nicer to look at than a wall). Once you're done prepping, both the cooktop and ovens are directly across from the prep counter so you can cook everything, and there is also ample counter space there to use while you do that.

It all flows. It's also all in the half of the kitchen with the most natural light.

2) THE SNACK ZONE (GREEN)

This is for when you are getting some quick food or a drink for yourself. Typically, you need some dishes (bowl and spoon, water glass, etc.), some food (leftovers, cereal, orange juice, etc.), and maybe the microwave or coffee maker or toaster or similar quick-food appliance.

That is why the dish storage, food storage, and small appliances are grouped together here with a bit of counter. Everything you'd need in the same area, outside the prep/cook zone.

3) The CLEAN-UP ZONE (PURPLE)

We've already discussed the reasoning behind what's here earlier in the thread, but in short, an ideal clean-up zone is near where dishes are generated (this one is right in between the island seating and dining room seating), outside of the prep/cook zone (so someone can load or unload the dishwasher while someone else cooks), and contains the clean-up sink, the dishwasher, and the dish storage. This clean-up zone has all that.

Additionally, this suggestion has a VERY large number of wide counters. There are THREE counters that are at least six feet long in the prep/cook zone alone (marked with blue circles below). That means three cooks can be working together at once. As a bonus, all three can get to the prep sink without walking into another cook's blue circle.

Moreover, if for whatever reason you have a million cooks going at once (Thanksgiving?), there are also two healthy-sized counters next to the clean-up sink where two more cooks could have room to work and access to water.

The aisles are five feet wide on all sides of the island, which makes it more comfortable for multiple people to move around in the kitchen at once.

All of that makes for a potentially very social, friendly kitchen. In addition to being pleasant, easy, and efficient to use.

Also from a visual perspective, half the kitchen no longer has upper cabinets, and the cabinets on the other side are significantly streamlined (all tall and then all same-height glass cabinets). Should be less overwhelming/busy in the cabinet department than the KD's plan.

Wow Jillius. Thank you so much for taking the time to do the sketch and explanation.

A couple things I have comments on and hopefully you can address them:

1. Mitered glass window looking at pool: This is well below counter height now. I don't know what kind of undertaking it is to raise the bottom of this window up. And would it end at counter level?

2. Are you keeping the other small window? Either way I think I would have more upper cabinets on the window to the cooktop (note I won't have a range) side than on the other side. Or are you saying no uppers past the big wall of cabinets that ends at the window?

3. Do you have glass uppers on the entire passthrough wall? Right now our current design only had 66" of double sided glass.

4. Island: I really need this to sit a minimum of 5 and have it be rectangle. I understand why you did the angle to match the window, but I need it symmetric. I was also thinking it could use a foot added to length and moved a foot closer to long wall (so seats aren't seen if pushed back when entering our house). I know this gives up some clearance but I think we have room.

5. Microwave drawer: I guess this could go in the island?

Again, THANK YOU!

Hmmm... so many things to think about. I'm seriously distraught over this kitchen. I feel like I don't know where to even begin now. And here we were about to finalize everything for a January remodel.

That darn small window... I just really do not like it. It's not on the center of that wall, so it's in an odd place. I don't think I like the cooktop under the window look - I would prefer to have a nicely tiled backsplash. I think the hood/window/cooktop would just look odd. (Although you are right others do look pretty).

Double ovens under counter - haven't thought about that... but it does add to the price of the appliances. Current double is $3K and two singles are $4K total.

I guess where things are currently... I guess I would ideally love to get rid of that small window. Keep pool window where it is. No angle on cooktop. But I guess that means I'm still left with a long row of cabinets? And I'd really like a big rectangular island. Sigh... I'm so not good at this. :(

Erica, in answer to your questions:

1. I am sure it's not worth the money to raise a specialized window like this. I had in mind just running the counter directly in front of it. Google "counter in front of low windows." Especially with a fixed window like this one, that should be no issue at all.

To actually raise the window, you'd need a new, shorter custom window made and installed. At that point, if you are going to the trouble of replacing it, I'd just bite the bullet and change this window entirely to square it off and also place it more deliberately with relation to the new kitchen and really take advantage of the one good window wall in the kitchen.

As I said in the last thread, with the removal of the kitchen table and the change in island shape from the existing angled one, you are entirely removing this window's reason for being. With a living room full of arches and the potential kitchen you were considering full of 90 degree angles, this window stuck out like a big, random sore thumb. What I did to place the range makes both the placement of the window and the angle of the window look more deliberate (and I think it will look fine), but if you actually go to the trouble of changing the window, definitely don't spend a lot of money just to get a shorter version and keep all the unfortunate features of the window.

2. I did think you could keep the current window (the one you were going to close). It just worked out that after placing everything in the kitchen where I thought it would work best, the window wasn't in the way of anything and also happened to start right where the double ovens ended, so the window placement even looks pretty deliberate. Might as well save money and not remove it. Plus natural light is always nice, it's nice to break up all the cabinetry, and that window works pretty well with the window on the other side of the range hood -- having windows on both sides above counters of similar lengths makes the range a nice focal point.

Why do you want uppers there? Everything you need near the cook top -- spatulas, pots and pans, etc. can fit in the drawers below. You don't need more storage in that area, and it's nice not having cabinets above your main prep/cook zones. It's why people like islands so much -- no cabinets in your face.

Also, visually, I'm wary of filling every square inch of such a large kitchen with cabinets. That is pretty overwhelming and also extremely one-note aesthetically. Since uppers are not needed or helpful here, this open wall area is a great opportunity for art or decorative plates or a display shelf or pretty tile on the wall. For an element OTHER than cabinets.

3. Yes, I have the whole pass through looking like the inspiration picture:

I think it is a very clean, striking look, and you liked it too, so why mess with success? :) I'd just set the uppers a little lower so you can actually reach them.

4. You'd not mentioned these requirements before. Are they wants or needs?

a) Why does the island need to be a rectangle?

b) Why does it need to seat five? It was my understanding that your family has five people total and that you intend the island seating for meals when you are not all eating together. So once five people are planning on sitting at once, wouldn't you move to the dining room?

In general, five people is a lot to seat all in a row at an island. Usually with that number, they're wanting to actually be able to face each other. Also it requires an absolutely enormous island, which will impact what else can fit where in the kitchen.

5. Yes, although it's a little less handy there to the fridge and dish storage. Not the end of the world, though. Still no zone crossing.

______________________________________

I'd encourage you to do two things:

1) Mock up various aisle widths with cardboard boxes or existing furniture and pretend to cook. Have other family members/guests go in and out of the aisles as they would normally do in the kitchen. Do not use tape on the floor for this exercise -- use real, 3D objects to mock up those aisles and give you a true idea of how constricted you will feel. This will tell you immediately how wide you want your aisles to be. This is a VERY personal preference kind of thing, but it seems as if everybody definitely has a preference. This is the best way to figure out yours. Then you can be firm about how close in/far out you want the island.

2) Don't think so much about how this looks right now. Also don't at all feel married to what I'm suggesting. I went to such detail to explain my reasoning for each part so you can learn the thought processes behind this and start to do them for yourself because you know yourself and your family better than we do. We make suggestions, but you are the best person to evaluate their merit, and you will likely take some ideas from one/some of us and marry it to some other ideas. For this, you need to know how kitchens are thought through. That's what I'm trying to show you.

Everyone is entirely capable of saying to herself, "Okay, this is common task in my kitchen. When I do this task in the kitchen, I need to use these things. This is the list." Then you group those things on that list together in the kitchen, and that is a zone.

Some people do beverage zones. Some do baking zones. Some do breakfast zones. Cpartist has a dog food/medicine/messy husband's stuff zone. Depends what your family does in a kitchen regularly. Prep/cook, snack, and clean-up are just the most typical zones. For some people, two separate, complete prep/cook zones are important.

So, which zones do you want in your kitchen? List them.

What needs to be in each zone? List the items.

Then start placing zones around the kitchen. The general concept of establishing a zone is to:

• group what you need together for that task
• arrange those things you need for that task in the order you'll need them and/or arrange them around the same counter so you'll do a minimum of running around/picking up and moving things while you complete the task
• if possible, make sure this zone you're establishing doesn't overlap with other zones that are likely to be used simultaneously

It's more of a logic game than anything else. If I want to do this, then I need this. If it's part of this zone, then it can't be in that zone. If this item is used in two zones, it need to be positioned between them. You just move your zones around on a floor plan like a sliding puzzle game till it all fits.

I suspect this is a game you are well-suited for, given your job. I used to do a lot of sudoku puzzles, but now I do layouts instead. Requires the same kind of brain work.

Once you've thought all this through and figured out where the zones work best for your family and how to fit them in your space, then draw elevations on graph paper and THEN start considering aesthetics. "The range needs to be here, but I think that looks unbalanced. What can I do visually to the other end of the kitchen to make it look bigger/taller/bolder/whatever to balance the range? Or how can I design the range hood to minimize its visual heft?" Or, "Having a ton of glass cabinets on one end of the kitchen looks a little random. How can I add some glass accents on the other end to tie it all together?" Then try a bunch of different stuff on paper and also google around and ask here or post your visual issue on the decorating forum.

It's rare that a functional placement of something in a kitchen cannot be made to look beautiful without changing what was functional about the placement.

Some things I usually start with when prettying up a functional layout:

• There's a concept that "things look good in threes," so try scattering a disparate element three times around the room and see if that helps it look more integrated.
• If some items are ALMOST lined up but not quite (and lining them up doesn't particularly affect function), line those up. When things aren't lined up at all, or when they are exactly lined up, it's fine. Looks deliberate. But ALMOST lined up things look messy or like a mistake.
• Decide what the focal points are going to be -- usually just one per area of the kitchen. Make sure nothing nearby the focal point is fighting for focus. That make things look chaotic. Play up the focal area more or downplay the usurper (or both).
• Things need room to breathe, otherwise the room looks stuffed. Leave a few more inches between the cabinets and window or the cabinets and the door or between X and the corner.
• Every kitchen needs at least one thing that's really special that isn't in every kitchen. The thing everybody who shows up will comment on, or the thing that makes your heart really sing. In my kitchen, it will be a large, central, awesome piece of art. In your kitchen, it will be your pass through.
• Try to find at least one spot for art or family photos or something with personality to make you smile. Also something you can change around.
• I feel most rooms can be improved by a little bit of black. Black hardware, black picture frames, black light fixture. Doesn't have to be a lot. I'm not sure why, but it's like mascara for a room. Suddenly everything looks a little more alive.

I am not so much with the interior design talent, so beyond that, I just try to find pictures online that have solved the visual problem I'm having. And every time I question something or come up with a new idea, I try to find a similar situation online and occasionally doctor them to see how that looks in real life. Amazing how much that immediately puts the issue to bed.

I just looked at your prior thread 3445044. Personally I don't think you need to start over, your KD's design looked pretty good to me. Yes, you can improve with some tweaking/value engineering (folks have made some good suggestions). If you want another sink/DW in the pass through area consider the additional costs. Personally I don't think it is a "scrap the whole design" situation by any means. Good luck!

Your avatar is adorable.

What about a T-shape island? You can have it all one height...or lower for the seating area. Or even two pieces that push together, but with your info above, I'm guessing you'd want all one height.

Then have a butler's pantry (great for dishes) between kitchen and dining...along with a walk-in pantry for all your other storage. Just a few ideas...hope this helps! :)

Everyone has such great ideas.... I honestly just don't know what to do. Problem is I loved the design my KD did. It was based on inspiration photos I had pulled. Everything has a place to live - we even incorporated a place for all of our kitchen desk "junk" to go (left side of passthrough). I guess the one thing that we didn't consider was extreme functionality. Honestly though, we don't cook a lot - I work full-time, older 2 play travel softball and baseball, my husband works in the ER so works long/odd shifts... so we don't do really cook fancy meals and we rarely all eat together. And my husband cooks a lot on the Green Egg in our outdoor kitchen and when it's nice out (I'm in Florida so we don't get many of these nights) we eat on the farmhouse table out there.

I do like the idea of a sink/DW in the passthrough, but it just changes the whole look of the design we did. I can't just move the sink there and leave 15" on each side of it since the area is 66" wide.

I feel like I would be letting all of you down if I stuck with my current design... but with some tweaks for 18" uppers instead of 15", etc. You have all spent so much time giving advice, but its so overwhelming, especially after having this planning phase go on for almost a year. Our current kitchen sucks - but my main issues with it are the looks - not that it's not functional.

That all being said... IF I stick with what I have - I will make the island a little bit smaller to accommodate ~48" clearance between cooktop and sink. I'm thinking we would end up with ~124" X 58 or 60". I actually can't shift the island because of clearance in that darn pool window. Should I also move the sink towards one side (which side would that even be?) and make it not center to have more prep space?

You need to do the kitchen you want. It sounds like you want a new kitchen to be pretty, not because the old one wasn't working for your needs.

This forum is more focused on "extreme functionality", as you put it:), so that is why your original design was not popular. However, it is not terrible, even for function, just not ideal. It sounds like you don't cook a lot, and your original design will get you what you want, a beautiful space.

I do think offsetting the sink a bit would help. Chopping veggies or prepping something to be used on the cooktop could be done next to the sink, yet more or less across from the cooktop so it would be a simple pivot and step away. I would move the sink down towards the dining room, leaving 24 or 36" to the end of the island. Definitely place your dishwasher on that end, where it will be out of the way of prep and closer to the passthrough for dirty dishes and clean dish unloading. Up to you whether a small increase in functionality is worth the loss of perfect symmetry:)

I've been following your threads and I feel for you. The whole renovation process can get overwhelming at times. I like your original design a lot - it has many beautiful features. I agree with what nancyjwb said about its functionality being not terrible, but not ideal. You could just move the sink off center and go with it if that's what you want to do (and you'd have a gorgeous kitchen.)

But, if you want to make it function significantly better, I think you could make a few relatively minor changes. It would not require that you scrap the current design and start over. Here are 3 things you might think about tweaking, in order of importance (the last one being mostly aesthetic.) (Also, I think the recommendations you got in the other thread about the stacked cab heights and lining up doors were great - I'm assuming you're going ahead with those.)

1. Make sure all your aisles are wide enough. This probably means at least 48" on the two working sides of the island. It may mean you need to shrink the length of your island to about 9'. If your island is 9'x5', to get your 5 seats, it looks like you can put 3 facing the back wall and 2 facing the dining room. Check the distance to the angled window wall to make sure you have enough clearance there, though.

2. Move your cleanup sink to the pass-thru counter and put a prep sink in the island (to one side, probably toward the back window wall.) I think raising the back half of the pass thru to block the sink from the dining room is a good idea. If you are worried about only having 15" of space on each side of the sink with the current pass-thru design, I think you have 2 options: (a) move the sink off center to one side or the other so you have more continuous space on one end for putting dishes during cleanup (b) make the pass thru wider by turning the tall cabs on either side of the opening into glass cabs. These would be the ones in red, below:

With those 2 changes, I think your kitchen would function really well.

3. Like I said before, this one is more aesthetic than functional. There were a lot of comments in both threads about the weight of cabinetry on the back wall. I know you don't like the view out that side of the house and don't like the position of the current window, but you might want to think about putting in a pair of narrower windows on either side of the range like this:

As others have suggested, you could use leaded or reeded glass to obscure the view while letting in light. You probably don't really need the storage of those uppers. This would address the 'heaviness' issue and brighten up your kitchen (see pic below.) But if you don't want to do it, then don't.

Ultimately, it's your kitchen, and you should do what you want to. Based on the drawings, it is going to be beautiful!

Broadmoor Kitchen with Beverly Bradshaw Interiors · More Info

Deep breaths, deep breaths - that's what I need to do! I talked to my KD this afternoon about the sink in the passthrough area and she said "absolutely not". I have sent her a message asking her to reconsider it. I don't want to offend her because she did the initial design (that no one thinks is functional!) but she also went off my inspiration photos.... she was also the one with the passthrough idea.

I said I would like to consider moving the sink there and opening up the passthrough with bar height on dining room side. I know I'm the client and ultimately it's my decision, but I want to be careful here...

I can't begin to express my gratitude for all of your help!

...she just said "absolutely not"? That is what my mother said when I was seven and asked for a pet cobra.

In my mother's case, it was an entirely appropriate response. In this case, it's a completely weird thing to say to a client. Especially one with a good point.

Not only a good point but the one writing the check. You hired the designer to help design YOUR kitchen, not hers.

I really think you could benefit from mocking up the proposed new sink location. Try eating in the dining room the next few days with the doorway between the dining room and kitchen blocked off with a side table, so you can place dishes on the side table (and access them from both sides like a pass through), but you can't walk through it.

Cook a standard dinner, get everything you need from the kitchen to the dining table and after dinner, get everything you need from the dining table back to the kitchen for clean-up.

Your current sink is approximately in the same spot in the kitchen as the KD's proposed sink would be. As you bring dishes back from the dining room for cleaning, see what you think of that position. The next night, do the same thing, except stack all the dirty dishes on/around the faux-pass-through (the side table) as if the sink were there instead. Consider if you prefer that.

Same thing with unloading dishes. Move some random shelves/tables to the wall where the pass through will be to approximate your dish storage cupboards. Pile a load of dishes approximately where the dishwasher would be in the KD's plan. Put all those dishes away in your faux dish storage cupboards. See what you think.

Then pile all those dishes where the dishwasher would be if the clean-up sink were in the pass through. Then put them away in the faux dish storage cupboards. See what you think.

This type of mocking-up is free and usually solidifies decisions immediately for people who are questioning themselves. It's worth doing just for the peace of mind, really.

I built probably half my kitchen out of cardboard boxes when we were mulling over the layout. Helped a lot!

Jillius - I like your idea of trying it all out, but I think at this point I'm going to move forward with a modified design that incorporates the sink at the passthrough and a prep sink on the island.

I called our plumber to see if he can give me a rough estimate of adding the other sink before the KD spends time modifying the design, but I think either way it's the right thing to do.

Questions:

1. Where would the prep sink go on my island (since I'll have to tell the KD where to put it in her design)? Looking at a Kohler Napa sink (18 3/4" X 20 7/8"). I assume it would go down in the corner of the island on the fridge side (note I plan to put two stools with backs to the big window on that side of the island)? Island, when scaled down for more aisle clearance, will probably be about 124"X58" if I had to guess.

2. Where would my trash pullout go? I'll have a DW to the left of my cleanup sink - would the trash go on the other side? Should I add another smaller trash pull out in the island by the prep sink?

3. I do plan on expanding the glass cabinets to have more counter space.... any thoughts though on where it would begin bar height? Right behind the faucet I assume?

Current design for reference:

Thanks so much!!!!

Just a shameless bump to see if I can get help on my last few questions. :)

1. I would move it toward the fridge but not all the way to the corner. You will want a minimum 15"-18" of counter and then the sink so you have a place to plop the items from the fridge before your wash them for prepping.

2. We generate more trash when prepping than during clean-up. I would put the bigger trash in the prep area. During clean-up, your garbage is typically just whatever is too big to be scraped the disposal and maybe paper napkins so you could just have a small trash there. I would just do a small trash container that hangs on the inside of the sink cabinet door and not waste a whole separate cabinet for trash there.

3. I think so based on the photos shown here with that set-up. You will want an extra few inches behind the faucet and not have the bar counter abutting too close to the faucet to restrict movement and your ability to clean behind the faucet.

Erica, I know I said I'd help and then I got sidetracked. We're headed to FL next week for the winter so I'm busy packing and shipping. I will make a note to try my hand at this later.

BTW: Which side of FL are you on? I'm in the SW.