Kinetico still makes a quality product, and are still the only ones that operate on water pressure alone.

My only hesitations with Kinetico would be: 1) Price, and 2) I wouldn't get one if there were any iron in the water. Of course, as with any softener of a proprietary nature, you'll want to ensure your local dealer is acceptable.

Let me start by saying that I like the Kinetico design and their marketing is pretty good too. The reality is that a Kinetico adheres to the same laws of physics and chemistry as all other ion exchange softeners have to.

Whether a mechanically driven softener is superior to a computer controlled softener is a choice the customer has to make. While making that choice bear in mind that in almost every facet of today's life we are microprocessor dependent so a microprocessor controlled softener is not a big compromise.

Kinetico is the only choice if the installation site does not offer electricity and that is a plus in that circumstance.

Mechanical parts wear and break. There is little to no Kinetico tech info made available to the customer and many Kinetico dealer flat refuse to sell a customer parts so you can't help yourself with even the simplest problem and Kinetico corporate will not intervene on the customer's behalf with a dealer.

If you have a good dealer and find Kinetico's pricing acceptable then life can be good although a three to four times the price of an equally performing industry standard softener.

One aspect of the Kinetico design that would stop me from installing one in my home is that they use the brine tank float to set the correct amount of brine and that float and brine line are ALWAYS at line pressure. If the PE brine line breaks or a connection leaks you will have a major league water leak till someone shuts off the water. If the float fails then the water will continue to run out the brine tank overflow elbow that VERY few installers actually connect to a drain.

For me an industry standard softener is the wisest choice based on cost, free tech info availability, can get parts all over the internet, and it will soften water exactly the same as a Kinetico.

yea I've seen all the physics speeches on other threads, so nothing new there for me anyway. Its not about efficiency its about the probability of failure ,which is much greater for an electronic circuit board, processor, display, associated sensors and such with high part count and complexity exposed to garage environments in close proximity to brine. They should sell that concept over the efficiency piece... Anyway, the electronics are there because it is cheaper to produce electronic automation than mechanical automation. The parts are made offshore and have higher failure rates compared to small mechanical parts rinsed in soft water. That's probably why I've had two electronic failures in less than 5 years on my furnace, but my kinetico valve and controlling assembly is still going strong 25 years later.

that said, truth be told I've had an electronic sprinkler controller for about 7 years with no failure yet -- although it is in a lower humidity environment and no where close to salt water. and there is no LCD, and the only thing it operates are simple solenoids.

I'm surprised that Kinetico has not improved upon their brine level control system, but suspect that is a consequence of the all mechanical, no electronics approach. You would think the use of normally closed valves would prevent that sort of thing, but I'll have to check this out further. I've replaced my float valve once, and had no floods. BTW, my installer plumbed the drain correctly -- he is a small time dude that does his own installs and has like one office person and one other helper. I installed my own K5 RO and he just came by and inspected my work before registering the warranty.

you mention the term "industry standard". I've seen the discussion about Fleck -- is that what you mean? industry standard = fleck?

why is Kinetico not a good choice if there is iron?

Industry standard control valves... Fleck, Clack, Autotrol, and others.

"...truth be told I've had an electronic sprinkler controller for about 7 years with no failure yet..." and your car or truck has been ECU controlled for many more years than that. Those ECUs in cars and trucks endure whatever temperature changes the environment offers along with vibration, water, and jolts for a hundred thousand miles or more with very few failures.

The argument against digital controlled water softeners is much like the argument against fuel injection decades ago. Those who railed against FI made the case that with carbs we could help ourselves in the event of a problem and that position had merit till FI proved over decades that it was reliable and more fuel efficient and had the capability to adjust to varying altitudes, temperatures, and engine loads. AFAIK there are no street legal vehicles presently sold in the US with a carburetor. The Mars Rover seems to be doing very well being completely computerized in an alien environment.

There are more Fleck 5600 Timer and Ecominder control valved softeners in service than all the softeners from all the other brands combined and they are not computer controlled, but what do you know, all those Fleck 5600 in the field for decades have an electric motor to step the valve through the regeneration cycles and all they do is work with the occasional failure that is easily remedied with the free tech info and a motor from countless places on the web.

I like the Kinetico control valve design. I don't like the brine fill design nor the company's reluctance to make tech info and parts readily available. I don't like Kinetico's outrageous claims regarding SFR and salt efficiency that flies in the face of the resin manufacturer's specifications. The price is the price and each consumer has to decide whether they like that or not but the laws of physics and chemistry dictate that an equal volume of the same resin in an equal volume tank regenerated with the same salt dose will have the same hardness removal capacity regardless of the control valve on top of the resin tank... and that's the facts.

Iron: Kinetico softeners are designed to use low salt dosages during regeneration. Most of the non-commercial models don't have large enough venturi throat pieces and brine flow control available to provide a high enough salt dosage to mitigate iron fouling of the resin beads. They also use a smaller resin bead, which can be better at removing iron, but fouling is a bigger problem if it develops on the outside of the beads. Because of the way Kinetico controls regen, you could potentially have a softener sitting with iron on the resin beads for an extended period of time if you aren't home or are otherwise using very little water: time + iron = fouled resin.

Some Kinetico models are a packed bed design which is less effective at removing iron than a freeboard design.

ok yes I remember now the thing about iron, and that kinetico uses a packed resin bed and smaller amounts of brine to perform the recharge -- its an attempt to reduce waste in the recharge cycle and give a certain small advantage in salt consumption, even as they adhere to the same laws of physics as all they others. My resin beds have never been changed in 25 years so iron must not be a problem where I'm at. I do have a sediment filter that turns dark brown quickly, so it gets changed monthly. I'll have to check that out on the new place re: iron thanks for the catch.

I'm afraid the comparison of water softener controllers to mars rovers and other electronics designed for harsh environments, such as automotive computers especially, is not accurate. These components are manufactured under different standards, and intended to withstand environmental extremes and to resist oil/gas corrosion, etc. The cost of doing this is much higher and produces a much reliable product. When a residential water softener circuit board is manufactured under the same standards as the ECM in my car, then I'll agree, but until then: no they are inexpensively manufactured offshore and subject to higher failure rates and will require more service over a 25 year period of time than small mechanical components washed in soft water. One look at a $100 controller board, and anyone with a lick of electronics repair experience will recognize that these boards are no where near as reliable as an automotive ECM, and that this level of quality is not found on the mars rover. Put that same $100 board with exposed tinned circuit traces and wire harness connections close to a brine tank and you have a micro-climate marginally corrosive condition... that's why my sprinkler controller is on the other side of the garage.

The analogy of carburetors and port fuel injectors doesn't apply here either. Both are mechanical devices with their own failure modes and vastly different motivations for their respective design changes, compared to water softener controllers. Fuel injector design has undergone an evolution in reliability, especially for common rail diesels where injection pressures are very high and the switching mechanism has to be very well designed. There are good designs and bad designs, but generally speaking -- warranties, laws, and consumer demand have driven reliability rates up very high. the same cannot be said for the $100 controller board.

now, then, one important factor to consider is the cost of reliability! One can buy a lot of those $100 boards for the increased cost of a non-electric softener. So a case can be made, especially for those who want to maintain their own, that the availability of relatively low-cost replacement parts is preferable to the reliability one might obtain by paying more for a mechanically controlled softener. And, as long as the supply is large and costs are low, this remains an attractive option. similarly, stepper motors are reliable electro-mechanical devices in their own right. Thus, as long as the valve failure modes are designed well, and one is amenable to the model of "more, less expensive service events" , then a case can be made for the electronically controlled softener. I would have to factor in the impact to my downstream RO unit who's reliability would also be affected by a downed softener.

For those who want nothing to do with service, and prefer to hire a local shop to perform these tasks -- I suppose its worth crunching a few numbers to evaluate the costs of hiring a shop to come out for these service events.

I have more than "a lick of electronics repair experience" and looking at this control board from a Clack WS1 I see as clean a design, execution, and assembly with elegant simplicity as I've seen in any automotive ECU and other electronics costing far more than softener control valves.

Even allowing for your pessimistic view of digital controllers IF a board failed I could have one in my hands the next day and be up and running in minutes or I could call any of the local independent water treatment pros to effect the repair rather than waiting for a service call from Kinetico for a broken pawl or stripped gear that they wouldn't sell me to DIY if I wanted.

FYI Kinetico's " attempt to reduce waste in the recharge cycle and give a certain small advantage in salt consumption" results in more frequent regenerations then the equal volume of resin would require in an industry standard softener set up correctly. In the long run the Kinetico will use the same volume of water and salt to regenerate the same gpg for the same gallons of water offering no increase in efficiency, but there will be more regeneration cycles experienced by the Kinetico and the result will be more wear.

The point had already been made that IF the consumer is willing to pay the price and IF the local Kinetico dealer provides timely competent service then going down the Kinetico road can be a trouble free experience, but if your dealer is not so good you are married to that dealer for better or for worse.

An industry standard softener either bought online for DIYers or from independent local water treatment pros will give the same performance, the same efficiency, and the same reliability as the Kinetico for considerably lower cost. There's the added plus that tech info is available for free and parts are readily available from numerous sources.

Either choice gets you soft water IF the system is correctly sized, correctly installed, and correctly set for your water conditions. As Yogi said... "when you come to a fork in the road, take it". With Kinetico the trip just costs more and for some that's OK.

yes those boards are readily available on the internet for anyone to see -- but you are not accounting for the very artifacts in that board that preclude its suitability for harsh environments. And no : layout, cleanliness, and elegance does not keep parts from failing. From a strictly reliability standpoint this is a cheep offshore mfg board. all those molex connectors with std tinned connectors instead of gold... that cap will dry out, those rectifiers will fail, the through-hole design will flex, parts with contacts or moving wipers will corrode, and generally speaking this board would fail miserably in a harsh environment. It is designed for low cost high volume manufacturing, where it can be produced for about $10 I would say. But I acknowledge the point about serviceability which remains as I stated -- you can buy a boatload of these $100 controllers and replace them more conveniently than servicing the internal parts of an kinetico. From a strictly design-for-reliability standpoint, the kinetico controlling system wins on most salient points, but in the long run its quite true that the sheer volume, availability, and cost of servicing the less reliable controllers is probably a win at least for DIYers

now then, for those who don't replace their own components, and require a retail service call but more often, what is it going to cost the consumer by the time that $100 board is installed and tested? Twice that figure, or more, plus the service call itself? and will that controller work in a 25 year old softener that was designed differently?

now then, if I could bank on a $100 repair for a controller board, for an industry standard softener that was 25 years old.. that would be another matter.